catsailing in trouble?

No idea what you mean by Coke, but I am sure you are being sarcastic.

As long as the H16 is the face of Hobie, Hobie Cat will look dated. There is no way around it.

No more dated looking than all the biggest one-design classes in the world.

You must be too young to remember. New Coke was probably the biggest marketing failure of all time.
The moral of the story: If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I'm 30.

"Ain't broke don't fix it"... famous last words.

Translation: "Living on borrowed time".

Question: Are Optimists, Lightnings, Flying Scots, Thistles and Lasers (I'm sure I missed a bunch here) living on borrowed time?

While I love technology and change, I'm not sure it applies to Hobie and their H16 - particularly when you have so many die-hards out there.

Bill Nieuwkerk
N6.0

"Die-hards" -- Translation: Love for the boat and loyalty to the class.

Not enough of those values around these days.

Well said Mary

See my earlier post on (Sailing Anarchy One Design Survey Results ( Pages 1 2 all ) )

I think you are missing his point.

His opinion concerns attracting new sailors. His point is that that the colors, shape, marketing etc don't appeal to the target market, 18 to 30 somethings who don't sail anything right now.

Your point of view is from a one design RACERS perspective.

IMO, I don't think many first time buyers who were introduced to a cat while at a resort are concerned with the racing class presence or absence.

When I went to the Annapolis boat show MANY years ago with the goal of buying a 16 foot cat. 5 boats were on display each marketed quite differently. Isotope marketed their 16 as family cruiser. (not interested). Prindle marketed their boat as a better sailing boat then the hobie 16 and faster upwind. (I was interested in better sailing since my previous experience with a hobie 16 rental which had a huge amount of weather helm) Hobie marketed their boat as the Hobie life style and great one design racing fleets around the country. (The Hobie lifestyle crap was just that... with a capitol C.... the racing fleet stuff did not register because I was just not interested in racing. They did not do a great job with my issue of the weather helm) Nacra only had pictures of their 5.0. (they were showing a 5.8) Dart had a very racy classy looking boat and marketed it as a single hander... double hander with ISAF approval, they also mentioned a great rudder system. (I had never heard of a Dart before the show and was very suspicious. I was leaning towards the Prindle 16.)

In the end, Only Dart scheduled a test sail at Sandy Point... Nacra showed up with a 5.0 at the Sandy Point beach and also offered rides (pissed the hell out of the Dart guy). I sailed both and liked and bought a Dart (which I still sail and race solo for kicks... damn those sails are old.)

My biggest concern at the time was (parts and support) since the importer was in Conn and the boat was made in England. In the end... there was a US Dart Class (Thanks to the Fondricks and 3 or 4 local very good Dart rec sailors, one of whom acted as an agent for the boat and they continued to sail at Sandy Point for several years. (Its the only public launch site.) The Hobie 16 racing fleet never sailed out of Sandy Point for races or recreation and I did not meet these folks until several years later.

For me... if I am a new person looking into buying a new boat... I want to know about the support that is around for me... that means a physical dealer who will answer all of my dumb questions and not make me feel dumb. In today's lingo... a user group exists... just won't cut it.. no matter how well meaning it's members are.

I don't have an opinion about whether a H16 looks hot or old... I just don't think that a one design racing fleet means much for new would be cat sailors.

I also think that most new sailors are not looking at their boat as entry into a new social scene... They want to sail with their family and friends.

(I think that such a structure is critical to keeping people interested in sailing a cat... so maybe some education may be needed about why join a cat club.)

Take Care
Mark

Mark,
I don't know why you associate belonging to a class with racing. There are many people who belong to class associations and do not race. They belong just because they love their boat and want to support the class association. And, because they love their boat, they want other people to be introduced to that boat and love it, too.

I don't know why it so difficult for people to understand how people can actually be in love with a particular class of boat and have no desire to keep switching to newer and younger and more beautiful designs.

Hi Mary,

Why do I associate class with racing?

Because for the most part... that's what the class does!
The volunteers who make the class activities happen are not running beach parties... they organize racing. The racing is the core of its being. Its what it spends time and money on.

I agree that organizations exist for people who love their type of boats...eg the Catalina owners association. They run raft ups etc.

What beach cat class organization do you have in mind that does not center around racing?

Mark

This last summer, I raced my H17 in 66 OD races (Could have raced 74). The fleet size ranged from 9 to 24 and I did not drive more than 3 hours from home or go to the nationals. Thats not bad, I sure hope we can keep it going. 05 is looking good with some new div 11 regattas planned and the nationals in Rehobeth.

Mark,

I would agree with you that at the regional and national level, class associations are primarily geared towards racing. It's what connects us all together.

However, at the local (fleet) level, the emphasis should be on recreation, not racing. In my own Hobie Fleet (276 - Detroit), I saw the fleet fade away as the only time we got together was to race. The beginners got tired of following me and Stan Woodruff around the course and went away.

In our recent reincarnation, we have purposely stayed away from the racing aspect - despite the fact the core group is about 80% hard-core racers. We get together at least every other week (½ price pints at the Moose Preserve!). In the winter, we have something to keep us connected at least once a month (skiing, bowling, party). In the summer, we have fun sails sandwiched in between the Division 10/16/CRAM schedules.

We keep it upbeat, we bring out the kids and hand out all kinds of free advice, spare parts, etc., etc.

Our dealer provides a modicum of support. He's given us a couple of demo boats to play with for a day (Wave, Getaway). But he's a Flying Scot guy. (I think I'm finally going to get him to race with me on the Tiger this summer - boy, is he in for an eye-opener!)

We've managed to attract a bunch of people who want to know how to sail their boats better; who want to know how to get rid of that nasty weather helm on their old 16. We've dragged a couple along to major events as crews and gotten them hooked.

Bottom line - it's up to the local (Fleet) level to feed the racing program through the recreational aspect. It's still part of the class association.

Hi Matt

I don't think we disagree here. My definition of a fleet would be the same definition for a club EG. an organization that supports catamaran sailors in their area in what they want to do: Race, Teach, fun sail, Ski etc, etc.

A class exists for sailors to come together and agree on a single set of rules to play a game with.

I am impressed with your energy to accomplish the following

"In our recent reincarnation, we have purposely stayed away from the racing aspect - despite the fact the core group is about 80% hard-core racers. "

Wow. I applaud your effort in sustaining that mission. I agree with you that its really an important technique to grow interest in cat sailing and down the road, interest in the sport as well. I must say I haven't seen a lot of racers willing to accomodate such recreational goals. I personally, just don't have any energy or interest in organizing those kinds of activities.

I also know that my interest in racing grew from playing with and chasing and catching friends on their boats. I believe this is where you catch the bug... and your sailing activity instantly becomes a sport.

I know my attitude is not part of the solution here. In my defense I must say, the monohull dinghy clubs in Annapolis focus on their core mission as racing clubs. Some will give you the boot if you are not participating in their programs. They will not be a pleasant spot for your boat storage/marina launch needs. They will send you off to a marina for those services.

Take Care
Mark

Mark,

i appreciate your point of view, focus on sailing and having fun and people will come. Racing is not for everyone, but having fun is.

Forest Gump

It's been a while since I've signed on, but our sailing Fleet on Lake Erie in Western New York is doing fine. We seem to have a nice social scene; have beach storage and access for less than $400 per year; and have a full range of 35 boats (5 new H Tigers, some 20 year old H-16s).

The biggest problem we have now is trying to decide if we'll continue to call ourselves a Hobie Fleet if we decide to not run an open fleet (three non-Hobie boats) in our annual regatta which attracts around fifty boats. This last action has pitted brother against brother; if the anti-Hobie crowd wins, we'll have to discontinue our annual regatta because at the most we'll only attract fifteen outside boats. What will happen to us then when we stop racing?

Wyatt

Wyatt, what do mean "if the anti-hobie crowd wins"?

Are you saying that if you have an open fleet at your "Hobie" regatta, the Hobie people won't go? I could not have understood that right, could I? If so, it's a strange land you live in.

Dave

If the only thing that you change is to delete the term Hobie points on the front of your NOR, why do you think people won't come to your regatta?

Mark

Wyatt,
I don't understand the problem. If you have enough Hobies in your area to have a successful regatta with Hobie-only (and you probably do), why would you alter that just to accommodate three non-Hobie boats?

Are you saying that the other Hobies from other fleets in the area will not come to your regatta if you have an open class? If that is the case, I would say it is a no-brainer -- just don't have an open class.

Wyatt,
Interesting that three people at the same time read your post the same way -- that other Hobie sailors will boycott your regatta if you have an open class.

Hi Mary

I suspect that his club has three members who race at the regatta that they help to put on and they don't have Hobie's. They would not be happy with loosing their race.

From a financial point of view... its a no brainer... from a club and/or philosophical point of view... he has a problem in his club.

Wyatt have you guys thought about running two regattas. One regatta with an open class that is steeply discounted and subsidized by the one Hobie only regatta. You could give a fleet discount to your club members and charge the visiting sailors the premium to cover the costs of running two regattas. (Usually the time and energy to run two events is a lot to ask of a small club though.)

Still puzzled why a sailor would not return to a pleasent well run event that they have been participating in for years.

Good Luck
Mark

But, Mark, if they are a Hobie fleet, I would think they would not be allowed to have non-Hobie members.

Actually the 'edict' didn't go that far. It only says that if you are having a "Hobie" event that you cannot allow non-Hobies to race. Nobody has said anything about not allowing them to join. I'm still sore about how I was a paid member and was told that I wouldn't be allowed to race anymore....where's my refund? ...actually my membership expired before things actually came to be.

To understand the Hobie Class Association, HCA, and IHCA position on One-Design Regattas, read the Jan-Feb Issue of Hobie Class News. Several articles that explain the issues very well.

Caleb Tarleton

Jake,
That was not part of the "edict," but it has always been the case, as far as I know, that Hobie fleets are only for Hobie sailors. That is why a number of fleets have converted to multiple-class, umbrella organizations, like CABB in the Miami area and TBCS in the Tampa Bay area -- so they could be more inclusive.

Our Hobie Fleet 36 is a part of CABB, but right now it only has two or three members, whereas CABB includes a large assortment of boats.

I am not a fan of 1-design racing personally. Though comparing any other beachcat racing association to Hobie's is laughable inside the US. Hobie has a pretty good infustructure and loyal following. I see why they have made the changes they have made. They did it because they can. Because they know NAMSA, Performance and the other small associations can't compete yet.

Bottom line is the far majority of boat owners don't race. Every fleet in our area includes any boat, not just Hobies. As far as I know, you can not have a "HCA Points Regatta" that includes other boats outside of the Hobie farm. That being said, and currently how the HCA championships are conducted, very few if any Hobie fleets around here care about points other than for seasonal bragging rights.

The majority of boat owners do not race and are willing to support the fleet activities reguardless of brand association. Fleets are social clubs first and brand oriented last. HCA points are arguably unimportant at the national level, but the HCA does provide a national network.

The Hobie Cat News is online at http://www.hobiecat.com/hobieclass
For the sailors that do not receive this information, you can read this publication online.

Caleb Tarleton

Thanks for the link to the newsletter - they've done a great job with the layout! I'm not exactly receiving that document anymore.

Please note, however, that the existing regattas listed in the newsletter for "Hobie Division 9" will welcome x-boats including a sizable mixed F18 fleet and will be held under the blanket of a different organization.

I would like to point anyone that shares this impression to the "rules download" section available on NAF18.com where you'll find such details like; explicit limits on sail materials, explicit rule limits regarding construction materials, foils, masts, etc.....The sail material limitations were just instated at the end of last year which should give you a clear indication that F18, as an international organization, is very interested in keeping costs low and preventing "buying a win".

NAF18 rules downloads

Who is Doug Skidmore ? And can Hobie Corp USA please make up its mind ?

Everytime around Texel and the F18 worlds we can see the various who is who like mr Miller posting overjoyed that the Hobie Tiger, afterall all those years since 1994, is still at the top of it game while only months later we are subjected to warnings how that the same F18 class will get out of control and blow up.

F18 has been around since the early 90's, professional sailors (80 % of them are on Hobies payroll) have been in the class since 1998. The class is still around and booming all over the place and the only organisation/persons that are BUYING victories is/are ?

The Hobie Cat Corporation ! (do I really need to name all top sailors on Hobie's payroll ?)

And even then, at best, their hold on victories is strenious as Boulogne's win on Cirrus F18 in 2003 and Taipan F18 Texel win in 1999 show. I think the current Dutch champion sails a Nacra F18. I can look up more race results when needed.

I think it to be a very sad day when a big company like Hobie needs to scare customers to their products. "Buy a Tiger else you loose out in F18 !" ; "Buy a OD Hobie else go down with the demise of the Open/formula classes when they implode" ; "Buy a Hobie or you won't be able to race when we ban all non-hobies from local events!"

A very sad day indeed !

And then to put insult to injury we have Hobie corp screeming at the top of their longs in "cat sailing in trouble" thread that everything is just dandy and that their products are saving the day. Man ! I have not even seen a getaway, twixxy, doddy, daddy or whatever those rubber boats they offer are called, ANYWHERE in Europe except 1 time. And that was a Hobie wave for sale as a secondhander at the Hobie dealor. So, how do we grow cat sailing on those boats when none will ever come out to events and mix it up with the rest of us. (Sorry Rick, I fully understand the exceptional work you do with the waves in the USA, but you are very much alone I fear).

What a load of BS some of these guys peddle about. And yes you can take me to court on that statement. I'll make you blush all over your face with some hard evidence you won't see in the Hobie way of life monthlies.

If I were mr Skidmore I would think long and hard WHY Cat sailing in Europe is BIG (and so much bigger than in the USA) and why European open class events dwarf all others including Hobie events. (Don't make me quote participation data on Europen Hobie events.)

And than lets have him say one more time that : "The end is NEAR ! and we're all gonna die if we don't repent !".

Been hearing that one since the early 90's out of the mouths of the various European old Hobie gits ! You would think that after 15 years of being wrong they would get it.

So again. Who exactly is Doug Skidmore ?

Wouter

P.S. got my flame suit on and a water hoose ready to fire, so make my day Hobie's !