Pretty sure this quote from earlier in the thread just about sums up the asterisk issue.
They can either prove it, or not. Sounds to me like they couldn't find enough proof to really pin it on anyone. Circumstantial
evidence
is nonsense in a case like this.
Mike
Pretty sure this quote from earlier in the thread just about sums up the asterisk issue.
They can either prove it, or not. Sounds to me like they couldn't find enough proof to really pin it on anyone. Circumstantial
evidence
is nonsense in a case like this.
Mike
Actually he's punished because he refused to cooperate fully. It's funny how you ignore the facts because your a fan boy. Try the honest approach, you should be pissed that he chose to embarrass himself and his team and for that matter all fans of the team and the league as a whole. When you cheat you steal from others. Your happy with that? And is any wonder we find ourselves with more rules and laws and oversight. It's because of people like this that cheat and steal. Frankly he's getting off light.
: to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something
: to take something from (someone) by lying or breaking a rule
: to prevent (someone) from having something that he or she deserves or was expecting to get
to break a rule or law... hmm... I never think of myself as a cheater when I break the law and speed, double park, spit on the sidewalk. I simply don't obey the law and take my chances with the penalty.
So... there must be some other element in the notion of cheating...
from Wikopedia
stickum
throughout his career, calling into question the integrity of his receiving records.[10][11][12]
I don't think of Jerry Rice as cheating either. I see the sport of football as having no moral high ground. There is NO CODE OF HONOR in place in football. What they have are rules... if you break a rule and get away with it.... Gamesmanship.... If you break a rule and get caught... Penalty. You choose to Obey the rule or not.
The NFL suspends your butt when you are caught for DUI... You broke one of the rules negotiated between players and owners. They don't say you cheated... The NFL owners and players have a PR problem with personal screw-ups... so they solve it with a rule.. They penalize the player or owner. (Irsay of the Colts)
Brady got caught.. He more then likely broke a rule... He then refused to cooperate with the organization he is apart of and so he incontrovertibly broke another rule. He pays the penalty. I can't call him a cheater... He just got caught at gamesmanship. 4 games for him seems about right....
The team penalty is weak!!! They lead the league in fewest fumbles for years...with few notable running backs in the list... a soft football is much easier to hold on to... The TEAM should be blasted for 4 or more years with significant penalties!
Pretty sure this quote from earlier in the thread just about sums up the asterisk issue.
They can either prove it, or not. Sounds to me like they couldn't find enough proof to really pin it on anyone. Circumstantial
evidence
is nonsense in a case like this.
Mike
Actually he's punished because he refused to cooperate fully. It's funny how you ignore the facts because your a fan boy. Try the honest approach, you should be pissed that he chose to embarrass himself and his team and for that matter all fans of the team and the league as a whole. When you cheat you steal from others. Your happy with that? And is any wonder we find ourselves with more rules and laws and oversight. It's because of people like this that cheat and steal. Frankly he's getting off light.
Fanboy? Not even close. Read through this thread again for my thoughts on Brady and the team. I've actually shared my thoughts on Brady through the years here. Hint: I'm not remotely a fan of him as any sort of role model.
Keep in mind, the media today is incredibly biased in their reporting. Where you live will probably dramatically alter what you hear. Couple that with your own biases, and we'll all reach different conclusions.
My point, though, was much simpler. They think he cheated, can't prove it, and penalized him anyways.
Mike
so, wait... you can only
cheat
if there is some 'code of honor' in whatever sport or occupation you're considering?
If you are driving faster than the speed limit, you are indeed cheating (and technically breaking a law).
I guess the real question in that situation would be
Are you upset when you find yourself speeding, or are you upset when you find the blinky lights behind you?
Seems no one is really sorry about something until they're caught. So to me, I guess they're really only sorry about getting caught...
Deflate my Tip!
https:/
Oh that Tom Brady! Instant Humma!
https:/
They need to fire Billicheck and trade Brady, so the next Superbowl win isn't tainted. At this point, proof obviously isn't needed, simply an accusation. No one outside of New England will ever respect anything that these two are involved with ever again, regardless of the scores of each game.
Mike
cheat
if there is some 'code of honor' in whatever sport or occupation you're considering?
If you are driving faster than the speed limit, you are indeed cheating (and technically breaking a law).
I guess the real question in that situation would be
Are you upset when you find yourself speeding, or are you upset when you find the blinky lights behind you?
Seems no one is really sorry about something until they're caught. So to me, I guess they're really only sorry about getting caught...
Yup... when you break your word to honor the rules... then you are a cheat...
If I count cards in black jack... am I a cheater?
With out a code of honor, the line between gamesmanship and cheating is arbitrary.
When you get married, you make public vows.... give your word to honor your vow. Therefore when you screw around... you are cheating... You are NOT breaking a law just a rule that you gave your word to honor.
I see speeding as when I am breaking the law... and I am not sorry that the blinky lights are behind me... I am pissed. I don't see any moral high ground in traffic laws or NFL rules. I certainly don't remember taking an oath to honor all traffic law. I agreed to respect and agree that I should respect them most of the time as a matter of safety and workability.
I just think that the term cheating is misapplied here and don't think that we need throw moral stones at the guy, ie... demand that he is sorry and contrite ... especially for breaking rules in a game made up for mass entertainment. So, I doubt Jerry Rice is sorry that he used and got away with stickem on his hands.... ditto Tom Brady.
Hey... if the NFL had a moral high ground .... they would demand the Washington football team change the name Redskins to something other then an ancient racial slur. The NFL is a rule based organization... the don't do morals.
Mike
Does anyone really believe Brady/Patriots were the only team in the entire league doing this? Really? Seriously?
They were just the ones who got caught.
Why are all the other big name QB's being so quiet about this? Not a peep of condemnation from Farve, Manning, Rogers, Joe Montana, nothing. Not a word. Why not?
Yeah, that's why.
So.... Timbo... it's not cheating... its gamesmanship..... they all play with their balls?
Pretty much, yeah. Even the receivers play with their balls. Wess Welker was traded to DEN because he kept dropping his balls... cost them a Super Bowl. I guess Tom's balls weren't soft enough for him!
I just heard Brady's suspension may be reduced, if he actually commits a crime!
He will be appealing, but... when has Tom Brady -not- been appealing?
Here's the report. I have not read the whole thing but read page 4 paragraph 6 and on for a bit.
The Florida driver license handbook kinda-sorta says I will obey all traffic rules.
Your license must be REVOKED if you are found guilty of, or department records show:
• Driving while under the influence of alcohol, drugs or other controlled substances.
• A felony in which a motor vehicle is used.
• Not stopping to give help when the vehicle you are driving is involved in a crash causing death or personal injury.
• Lying about the ownership or operation of motor vehicles.
• Three cases of reckless driving within one year. Forfeiting bail and not going to court to avoid being convicted of reckless driving counts the same as a conviction.
• An immoral act in which a motor vehicle was used.
• Three major offenses or 15 offenses for which you receive points within a 5-year period.
• A felony for drug possession.
• Vision worse than the standard
minimum requirements.
Funny they mention that
immoral
thing again... Did we establish that speeding was immoral or not? Was the moral high ground following rules established by regulatory authorities?
Now, the state statutes go on to say:
(2) REQUIRED OBEDIENCE TO TRAFFIC LAWS.—It is unlawful for any person to do any act forbidden, or to fail to perform any act required, in this chapter. It is unlawful for the owner, or any other person employing or otherwise directing the driver of any vehicle, to require or knowingly permit the operation of such vehicle upon a highway in any manner contrary to law. A violation of this subsection is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation as provided in chapter 318.
And you have to sign an agreement to this effect in order to get your driver license. I don't recall if this is the same as swearing an oath (I'm not an attorney anyway)?
How about pumping out my holding tank in a
no discharge zone
? If I don't get caught, is it 'moral'?
On your earlier mention of a port-starboard cross...
If you were on port and crossed starboard but you CLEARLY saw that they DID have to alter their course to avoid hitting you, but did NOT yell
protest
or say anything directly to you, would you still do your penalty turn?
Let's say it was a Noob sailing who wasn't 100% sure they were in the right during this crossing maneuver...
Would this be considered
cheating
(breaking a RRS guideline) or
gamesmanship
(taking advantage of another sailor's lack of knowledge)?
protest
or say anything directly to you, would you still do your penalty turn?
Let's say it was a Noob sailing who wasn't 100% sure they were in the right during this crossing maneuver...
Would this be considered
cheating
(breaking a RRS guideline) or
gamesmanship
(taking advantage of another sailor's lack of knowledge)?
Yes, I would do my penalty turn.
The Racing Rules of Sailing are rules, not
guidelines
. Take a look at the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules, which states:
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire
.
Also see RRS 2 - Fair Sailing which states
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play
.
If you knowingly break a rule but do not take a penalty, then you break Rule 2 - whether or not any other boat protests.
Eric Rasmussen
US Sailing Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee
Wow, reading those texts between the two equipment managers was pretty eye opening!
Sounds like the guy doing the deflating HATES Brady!
He said he was going to blow the balls up like water melons and Rugby balls! Too funny!
And I want some kix, size 11 1/2, and I want two autographed balls, and I want...
That's the guy who should be getting fired!
Two thoughts... You obey/follow the rules AND you can also honor the rules...
honor the rules
means impeccable compliance with the letter and spirit of the rules.
No matter how you view the rules... in sailing, you call your own foul on yourself. Rule 2 is a way of putting the notion of Honor explicitly in place.
Tacking too close is one of those wind, wave, skill of the fleet things..... If you are in an olympic fleet.... your margins are close... if you are on port and a newbie is on starboard... you can't play the game the same way... your perfectly executed lee bow move may cause starbord to change course and hail protest. If you are obeying the rules.. you probably wind up in the protest room trying to persuade a jury... if you honor the rule..... you handle the situation very differently.
Hobie cats wrote this into their class rules about equipment by saying... If its not spelled out in the class rule.. its not legal... (don't go looking for loopholes) aka honor the letter and spirit of the class rules.
IMO, we call racers who don't take their penalties cheaters.
Football... does not have this honor notion.... They have rules and referees who enforce the rules.... If you don't get caught... gamesmanship! ... Brady broke a rule and gets fined. He is not cheating.... nor was Jerry Rice cheating.
If any of those texts were sent after the Indy game, you have to wonder if they were tongue in cheek. Stupid, but funny nonetheless.
Immoral acts in a car? Has anyone been that flexible since high school?
All kidding aside, as usual, I agree with Eric's points above.
Mike
that's hilarious <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> I need to take my heart medication after laughing that hard...
You're welcome. Please tip your waitresses and try the veal...
Mike