I can't get over how much I hate the comptip on my Hobie 20. It is a high maintenance piece of crap, and I would not be at all surprised someday if Hobie Cat gets sued because the dumb leaky thing caused someone to drown.
Last weekend I was sailing in a race and tipped over. We could not get the boat righted to save our soul. No amount of leaning out with both of us on the righting line would make the boat come up. It was really stupid that we tipped in the first place, and once we were trying to right it, the wind wasn't strong enough to help much. My crew and I probably weigh around 380, so even with poor righting technique, it shouldn't have been a problem. Even once someone came to help, it was still difficult. The helper lifted the mast out of the water, and we still had all we could do to get her to come up.
So...back to sealing the comptip and all the various fittings that could be leaking again, as there is no way that the mast is dry with that much difficulty righting the boat.
Even when comptip masts don't leak, they are not as bouyant as a comparable aluminum or carbon fiber mast, which makes them more prone to turtling, or sinking.
I love my Hobie 20, and can't afford to replace it right now, but this will be the last boat I own with a comp tip.
Such a shame!
Just had to rant. It's nothing personal, Hobie Cat folks, I just find this to be a real drag.
Tim
I know it is just a rant, but I have to respond when someone claims that CompTips are dangerous.
The CompTip is a great solution to a hopeless situation concerning electrocution. Hobie Cat is the only company who stepped up and offered a safe solution.
CompTips add just one additional leak possibility (the connection joint) compared to an aluminum full length mast. The taper is a side benefit to the molded process and allows a lighter and better aerodynamic upper mast for higher performance.
Every mast made has a potential to leak. Everybody knows that. Seals and sealant do not seal a mast permanently. Stick the mast head to 30 feet depth, you may have problems. Especially with an older boat.
Carbon masts? Talk about care and maintenance.
My understanding was that the comptip was a solution to a legal problem, not an engineering problem.
Otherwise why do the non-US built Hobies such as Tigers not run comptips?
A lighter and better aerodynamic upper mast for higher performance ...
Should be a no-brainer for a performance-oriented boat, right?
I imagine they also have overhead power lines in places other than the US, but maybe their lives are not worth as much.
Yes... a legal issue started the process.
Why not on Hobie boats built elsewhere? Not the same legal issue. Without a doubt...CompTips are an expensive solution to the problem here in the USA. Understand that Hobie Cat France is not owned by the same folks either. We can not tell them what to build.
OK, so I'll concede that it only adds one more possibility of leaking, but other piece of the equation is that it is far less bouyant in a capsize.
And as for
stepping up
I will freely admit little knowledge with regard to history. Did they truly
step up
or was this decision forced on to them by lawyers? Matt, I know you've addressed this in the past here, but I honestly don't remember how that whole thing came about.
As to electrocution, I've often wondered how much additional safety is truly added by the comp tip. Many people sail in salt water. If it gets a little wet, I wonder how protected you really are? And, the mast tang and wires are still up pretty high. Here in MN, Xcel Energy recommends staying ten feet away because of the possibility of an arch of current jumping through the air. Not saying it doesn't make it safer, but I'm just not sure how much safer it makes it.
Tim
I've always wondered if this legal problem had something to do with Hobie going over to non-US production of performance boats. Could you build a competitive Formula 18 boat with a comptip?
Much safer in relation to contact with high power lines. That is a life issue.
The mast sinking easier is a capsize position issue. Once you spin the boat around with the mast up wind, it is a non-issue.
True, but a mast with more bouyancy gives you more time.
Hobie Bob!
Not class legal! (unless that has changed!) <img src=
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Bobs are not class legal? How can that be?? <img src=
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I couldn't find conformation that they're illegal, except that the NAHCA rules state that you may not
modify the mast
whatever that means.
What always made me think that they were illegal was the description of them in the Hobie Cat catalog:
ROTATING MAST FLOAT “HOBIE BOB” Helps to prevent turtling. Displaces 60 pounds of water to keep the mast from going full turtle (mast straight down), even when there's weight on the upper hull. This streamlined float is bracket mounted for easy removal for racing or trailering. It’s bearings allow rotation of the float to act as a wind vane for minimum drag while sailing. This mast float is standard on all Hobie 21 Sport Cruisers. The Hobie mast float will give you the time you need when preparing to right the boat without the worry of going turtle (mast straight down). It also helps prevent damage to your rig and sails that can be caused if the mast head contacts the bottom when capsized.
So...bottom line....I'm not sure! Anyone sure?
Tim
I'm sure - the rules state that if it is not expressly allowed, it is verboten. Unless the rules are modified to specifically allow Bobs, you can't add one. That is the catch-all phrase in many class rules. Try proposing it at the next AGM, though - I'll bet nobody objects. And it would take a cold-hearted gutless wonder to protest someone for adding a safety feature. <img src=
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Unless, of course, the bob makes your boat go faster -- or if you are able to right your boat faster when you capsize during a race. <img src=
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Comptips can't be fitted to the Tiger as they wouldn't fit in the F18 class rules which require an aluminium mast of continuous section (ie not tapered or composite).
can you add shroud extenders on the boat as long as you only use them in emergency situations? Realizing that you would forfeit a race if you deploy in a non emergency situation?
Other wise...seal yer comp tip. I was able to right my ARC 21 (33' mast)in
zero knots
with about 380 crew weight. Technique is critical.
One difference between Europe and the US is that we most often have the boat at the club, while I have the impression that a lot of boats are on trailers at home in the US.
I suppose trailering to new ramps outside sailing clubs increases the risk of overlooking a power line.
As far as I remember from the last time this was discussed, the comptip was the result of a lawsuit where a rigged boat on beachwheels was rolled into an overhead powerline.
I dont believe having a comptip is a performance advantage, more the opposite as it is heavier and more flexible than the same alu extrusion (unless you go carbon, and carbon is a very good conductor).
Going out on a limb.. For a 10foot arc to form from a power line, I believe you would need some seriously high voltage and current. The regular 320kV transport line will probably not do it.
I agree with Rolf that we tend to use boat clubs instead of traliers. Most clubs here are non profit and are run by their members, the land is rented with a vey low fee, a membership with access to club house, parking space for the boat cost around 200 euros for a year. You need to do one day of work to fix the club after the winter and one day of work to prepare the club for the next winter.
In Sweden most power lines in the city are in the ground, to reduce the risk of electric shocks and magnetic fields. The problems with LOW voltage power lines hanging around are few and they are insulated which means that you will not get fried if the mast touches them.
My experince on comptips.
My first Hobie 16 was a brand new US build boat from 1989. I started racing with it but had speed problems. After changing the comptip mast to a 1 kg lighter aluminium mast and a new Hobie cat europe sail the speed was ok. I later changed to a French build Hobie 16 (1991) and are now sailing my third Hobie 16 (2005). My choice right now would be an Australian built Hobie 16, but it is a bit expensive to import it.
/håkan
I personally witnessed the benefits of a comptip in action. We were at Division 3's 1993 Persidio Invitational in San Francisco when Eric Rodal and his crew accidently beachwheeled their Hobie 20 into a low hanging power line feeding a street light. Large blue flash and a loud bah-zit. I thought they were dead. But nothing happened to the crew (other than a brown streak in Eric's drysuit) or the boat other than a slight burn mark on the comptip. Yes, comptips do require maintainance and should be covered to protect from damaging UV rays when not in use. But they do work as intended. Another word of advice...look up when moving your boat around. Be cognizant of any power lines in the area. We don't want to hand out any posthumous Darwin Awards.
Theres been three power lines incidents I know of recently in Florida. Two were cats on trailers with the mast still up after the race, and the owner was moving forward to make room for others. One was at Melbourne Riverfront Park and the other at Cocoa Beach. They forgot about the power lines and drove their boat/trailer right into it. In those two cases no one was injured as no one was touching the boats, although falling masts and broken power lines certainly were dangerous.
The third case was not related to one of the Florida regattas but I believe someone was hurt pretty bad in Key Largo (caribbean club?) when they beach wheeled into a power line. Rick or Mary can confirm this I but I believe that was the end of catsailors using that facility for launching.
The original incident involved high voltage distirbution lines well below minimum code requirements, OVER A LAKE!
On shore, my contention is knowing that most local Electric Codes only require 18 foot clearance over vehicular pathways of any kind, in most cases, the comp-tip, will be well above this height. I hope having a comp-tip doesn't
lull
someone in to forgetting to look for overhead lines!!!
Oh well, it's a HCANA rule and have to live with it.
I don't understand peoples belief that you must cover a comp-tip. We apply wax or 303 to ours. Other than the color it's no different than your hulls.
The BLACK comptip absorbs the sun's rays faster. WHITE hulls reflect. Wax does not prevent damage...just makes it look nice. But the sun's UV rays WILL weaken/damage your boat over time. Keep it all covered if you want it to last.
I stand by my original contention that mast with a comptip is not as bouyant, and more prone to turtling, and trapping a sailor, even if it doesn't leak.
On the other hand, I will agree based on what's in this thread, that lives have been spared from electrocution. But the fact remains that under similar circumstances, you're more apt to turtle a Hobie 20 than a Nacra F18 for example.
I have friends in our club who ditched the H20 for Nacra F18, and were absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that the mast didn't sink when they tipped over. Unbelievable! Sure, they'll have to make sure the rivets are always sealed, etc., but that is amazing.
I've heard hairy stories of people drowning under turtled cats. I almost got caught under mine a few years ago, and was delighted that the water was shallower than the mast was tall. I now make sure that my crew and I carry knives. I recently heard the retelling of a horrific drowning under a Hobie 18 with a comptip in Canada. Apparently that boat turtled immediately. There may have been other circumstances in that case, but the fact remains: a boat with a comptip will turtle faster than an equivalent boat without a comptip. Prediction: thanks to another lawsuit, someday all Hobies will be required to have a bob to make them class legal.
This weekend, I'm going to pressurize my mast and find the leaks. Then I'm going to make damn sure I don't tip again. <img src=
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Tim
It seems that USA has a different way of handling power lines, unisolated live wires at low height! I have NEVER seen this kind of safety hazard at any sailing club I've been at in Europe. I guess you really need those comp tips.
/håkan
On the other hand, I will agree based on what's in this thread, that lives have been spared from electrocution. But the fact remains that under similar circumstances, you're more apt to turtle a Hobie 20 than a Nacra F18 for example.
I have friends in our club who ditched the H20 for Nacra F18, and were absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that the mast didn't sink when they tipped over. Unbelievable! Sure, they'll have to make sure the rivets are always sealed, etc., but that is amazing.
I've heard hairy stories of people drowning under turtled cats. I almost got caught under mine a few years ago, and was delighted that the water was shallower than the mast was tall. I now make sure that my crew and I carry knives. I recently heard the retelling of a horrific drowning under a Hobie 18 with a comptip in Canada. Apparently that boat turtled immediately. There may have been other circumstances in that case, but the fact remains: a boat with a comptip will turtle faster than an equivalent boat without a comptip. Prediction: thanks to another lawsuit, someday all Hobies will be required to have a bob to make them class legal.
This weekend, I'm going to pressurize my mast and find the leaks. Then I'm going to make damn sure I don't tip again. <img src=
alt=
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Tim
I think the problem with bouyancy and comptips has more to do with the tapered shape, not the material. The taper just doesn't give enough displacement at the end of the mast to keep the boat floating solidly on its side. Of the cats I've had, the H-20 did want to sink the mast fast, and even when I got the boat the advice I was given by quite a few was that in a capsize somebody had to get on the righting line immediately to keep the boat from going turtle. My 18 with an all metal mast with no taper floated fine.
The 18 and 20 comptips with the taper give less displacement at the end of mast when in the water.
So far my 6.0na and the Inter-20 have seemed to be the most rock solid after a capsize as far as resistance to turtling, and both boats are far easier to right than the Hobies I've had.
All cats that do not have some type of floatation aide at the mast tip will turtle if the conditions are right (heavy air) Yeah, your friends might be impressed that a NF18 won't turtle but I'll bet you it wasn't very windy when they did flip over. I've put my HF18 upside down several times in extreme conditions. But I find it easier to right from a turtled position. At least you can pick which side the wind will help you with instead of trying to
walk
the boat into the proper righting position.
Interesting commentary on a
one design.
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One Designs can be built by many builders. Factory One Design is the concept that would lead one to believe that every boat shout be identical.
we broke our comptip off at he bottom. i fixed it with epoxy.
stuffed 2 windsurfer mast tips in there and made a socket to fit the alu at the hounds. the new tip is 6" shorter and stiffer than original. still too soft in my opinion tho. Had to modify the saill as well- no rules to follow out here. it's tapered so when i tip over i quickly point the mast tip to windward and have plenty time to rig the righting pole. i don't do the power righting and believe the first priority is swimming the bows around, getting the mast tip into the wind.