Do you know for sure your boat won't sink?

Now, I must say that I take a different approach to class rules and how to do things than the F18HT class but a crew can just as well survive on the remaining hull that still floats.

And I know that sailing an F18 or F20 (inter 20) with a holed hull is no picknic either.

But then again there is a distinction between surviving and limping back to shore yourself.

But this problem can easily be solved but adding a floatation rule to the F18HT class rules.

Wouter

Before a problem can be solved, people have to be convinced that there is a problem in the first place.

Indeed Mary.

Wouter

It will be interesting to see whether the F-18HT class now will require positive flotation to be added to their boats.

But requirements by a class association to add flotation to boats (if it is not inherent in the construction or at least added within the hulls by the manufacturer as independent flotation materials) is not going to work for the people who buy a boat just for fun, recreational sailing.

Those people do not join class associations, but they do buy boats, both new and used. And they probably assume their boat will float even if it is full of water. They do not have access to the information that we do.

Some racer decides to remove flotation inserts from his hulls to reduce weight. Some "cruiser" sailor buys the used boat later and does not even know that there was supposed to be flotation in the hulls.

So how do we protect a guy who innocently buys a boat that can't float if the hulls are compromised when he is out there on a beach-camping trip with his wife and two small children?

Heck, even for the BIG multihulls, the big selling point is that they may capsize, but they won't sink and it will be your liferaft.

And who would have thought that a little beach-cat would sink? I mean REALLY sink? I suspected it was possible for certain boats. But how do we know WHICH boats?

P.S. And for those who bring up that long-ago lawsuit about the Nacra that supposedly sank, it is not true. The boat did not sink and was still floating quite well, upside down, when it was recovered and towed in. The manufacturer prevailed in that lawsuit.

That is not say that I trust any boat to float unless I know there has been testing and unless I know that there is some kind of flotation that guarantees the thing will keep floating even if both hulls are ripped open. Aren't there any laws about this to protect the blissfully ignorant among us?

Well,

The are some things to be said for those class rules that enforce garanteed floatation.

With respect to the F18 and other classes the boats are weighted before racing and reduction in weight that might be from removed floatation will void the boats race permit.

In some boat type like the Taipan the floatation requirement is satisfied by having foam bulkheads instead of timber or glass bulheads. It is pretty hard to remove those without losing hull integrity.

The fact that those bulkheads are made out of (glassed) foam blocks is the direct result of the Class rules.

In short when designers are faced with a garanteed floatation rule as the one in the F18 rules than they tend to try and incorporate that in the overall design as a element that does more than just take space. Of course not always. Hobie Fox is an exception.

Also from the perspective of the builders they have to sell a fully compliant boat and they can't really know wether a buyer will race to boat or not. Ergo they can't assume that the boat will never be measured and checked for compliance. They will then always assume that it will be measured and checked and be forced in practical sense to sell the boat with floatation.

Of course the class needs to take this rule up in her compliance checks / pre race checks. I know that the F16 will do that. We don't have the rule on having inspection hatches for nothing do we ? I know that we will have a serious word with the builder who sells boats which are not compliant with rule B.1.2.

Can a second hand boat builder be absolutely sure ? Only when teh boat has a current measurement certificate. But even then the buyer must check these things for himself. And when lacking floatation he or she can add it him or herself. Nothing is full proof.

With respect to laws protecting the "ignorant"
Well yes there are. the CE (Communion European) is one of those quality marks that concerns herself with issues like these in all areas and products. I haven't looked into the US version yet but I'm sure that I will soon enough after we that CE norm sorted out.

All buyers have to do is look for these marks. For example All Hobie Tiger owners will be able to find such a metal plaquette or sticker on their beams or hulls that deplays boat information and the CE logo.

Wouter

I mentioned the NACRA lawsuit NOT to make the claim that the boat sank. If I remember the story right, one hull did flood somewhat due to a leaking port cover. Supposedly this led the sailors to think the boat was sinking (or in danger of) and they decided to swim for shore, when indeed the boat stayed afloat and they should have stayed with it. They violated several common sense rules, and they paid a price for it. If I remember right, however, part of their lawsuit did make the claim of inadequate flotation. I mentioned it because I would think that such things would still be a sore subject in the industry, and that to produce a boat without some sort of positive flotation might be asking for it these days. Even my roto-molded sea kayak has expando-foam in the bow and stern for flotation. Again, I thought the USCG reg for small boats included a flotation requirement. Maybe a sealed hull counts, and breaches don't enter enter in the equation. In a high-speed sailing craft, a compromise to the hull is possible.

Floatation Suggestion:
Big foam "noodles" into the hulls. They weigh almost nothing and will support a lot of weight. They're also good for stuffing into the mast and beams.

Sol Cats:
I bought my yellow Sol 18 in New Orleans in '77. Sold it in Houston in 1983. Never had a problem with it. It was a great boat. I miss those old durable, solid boats.

I still feel that the cleanest, easiest solution for many boats would be to install a pair of kayak flotation bags. Just slip them inside the hull and inflate. They're light, and they don't absorb water. You can even get double-walled models that can be used to store gear (or beer).

Oops, I posted a reply but somehow put it as a new thread... it is at:

other thread

The story I heard was that 4 people had gone out on this cat into the Atlantic, with one port cover actually missing. When capsized, therefore one hull filled, but did not sink. Sadly, they did not stay with the floating boat.

I just talked to W.F. Oliver, and he said the Bimare Jav 2's are required by law in Europe (as Wouter said) to have a certain amount of positive flotation. In this case, though, because of the size and location of the hole in the boat that was T-boned at the Alter Cup, the flotation was dislodged from where it was secured to the inside of the hull and it escaped through the hole.

Mary,

Did W.F. mention what kind of flotation material is used? How is it secured?

Well, Kevin, he told me, but I was not in a position to be paying close attention or taking notes at the time -- and he called on a completely different subject. What interested me is that, as I had supposed, when you add flotation to your hull (not built into the construction), you may have a hard time keeping it inside your hull if you get a big hole. Or, as someone else said in this thread, the flotation, when unattached, can go to one end of the hull or the other and cause a problem of a different sort.

He did say that the Bimare uses foam-core construction and has foam bulkheads but that those alone are not enough to meet the European standards, so additional flotation is put inside the hulls and secured. In this case the foam, of whatever nature, was dislodged and got out through the hole.

I would really rather not be the middle man here, and I think it would be best if W.F. or a factory representative would explain what kind of flotation is installed and how.

And I don't think it is really productive to pick on one specific boat without getting information from as many manufacturers as possible about what they do to make sure their boats won't sink. The Jav 2 just happens to be the one that got captured on film.

Is this really a major problem? I don't think so. How often do you hear of a beach-cat sinking right to the bottom? No reason to blow it out of proportion. But, still, it would be nice to know for sure that your boat will not sink.

I started this thread in the first place primarily because I thought the issue should be addressed in regard to boats that are used in the Worrell 1000.

Mary,
I agree. Whenever a new design hits the market, there seems to be a mixed response, ranging from, "Wow that boat's cool", to "Ya, but will that thing hold up to the rigors of hard use like mine". Unfortunately, a single incident like the one at the Alter Cup can sometimes capture the lion's share of attention (like Jensen Beach a couple years back).

I was curious about the Jav's flotation because I was wondering if it were anything like what's been suggested in various posts in this thread.

As you said, the likelihood of a cat having both hulls compromised is probably slim. One hull full of air certainly would stay at the surface, however flotation that would keep the holed hull at the surface, too, might make the towing/salvage efforts easier.

This link has some shots of the RC boats and the salvage operation. David Billing from the Clearwater Yacht Club did some outstange powerboat driving.

Funny thing, we just had some more chunks of the hull wash up on the beach yesterday. 5 days after the wreck!

The Salvage operation

Hi Mary...

Just a thought, another possibility for cheap floatation assistance might be had from empty plastic soda or water bottles. They are pretty light when empty, of course, this is assuming your boat has access ports large enough to fit them through. My H16 has the styrofoam blocks between the pylons, but with my 6' access ports, I could add a load of empty 2 litre soda bottles to the hull if I wanted the extra displacement. Downside--I guess they would float away if the hull was severely breached.

Mark Owens
1976 H16 sail # 19857

Kevin,
I considered using my canoe floatation bags, but the glass doesn't look too friendly inside my H16. I am afraid that upon inflation it be punctured by the irregularities of the glass inside the hull. What do you think?
Greg,
H16, H14

That can be a problem. A solution (aside from sanding down the rough bits) would be to only partially inflate the bag so that it isn't held with air pressure against the inside of the hull.

Greg
Another option that could be less expensive would be the bladders from casks of wine. They weigh 50 grams each and displace 4 litres or 4kg of water and they are quite durable.
The hard part is finding cask wine that is to your liking.

Regards,
Phill

Only problem there is you'd have to drink an awful lot of wine to come up with the flotation available in a couple of canoe/kayak float bags

It's a joke !

Wouter

Kevin,

I am afraid that even with partially inflated floatation that if a leak occurs, once the hull is full of water pressure will be exerted on the bag.
Greg (pessimist)
H14,H16

Mary,

This idea is so simple that chances are that someone already wrote about it here (and elsewhere) - please forgive me if this is the case.

It is also not original, not fancy and not the lightest setup - but it works.

For additional safety, tie the bottles neck to neck beforehands. Tying will hold them together, so they aren't lost if the hull is cut in half. And, should it happen, the string of bottles makes for a good flotation aid.

I also learned the following in the discussion site br.groups.yahoo.com/group/altomar/messages (not in English):

The empty bottles are tough because they were designed to take relatively high internal pressures. Participants reported on pets being used as fenders (without cover) and mooring buoys as well.

When higher internal pressure is desired, they put them into the freezer before closing the lid. The cold air then expands, increasing the pressure. Depending on where you are, just leave them outside at night and close the lid in the morning.

Take care!

Should I use my Golden Retriever or one of my cats?

I know, I know, I just couldn't resist...

the only thing my dogs do on my boat is eat jellyfish.

Its blond and smart, what is it ?

Wouter

Ecological safe sailing aid:

[color]"Recycle - freeze your pet - make your boat safer"

answering your question: I guess cats suit cats better.
For monos, use monkeys.

Once sunk.. If it sinks during the test.. consider making a custom portal attachment and use a CO2 fire extinguisher to force the water back out of the hull. It won't take much to get it back to the surface.

If my boat is damaged that bad... I say let it sink. Screw it and buy another one.