Thought it may be a good idea to get diverse opinion, ideas and concepts here on catsailors new forum on this proposed distance race being organized by the Tybee Island sailing Team along with input being sent into them directly. It may be of great interest to others planning similar future races.
here is a partial copy of Tybees race organizers post --
Some of you may know me and a lot of you may not!
My name is Chuck Bargeron and I own Team Tybee!. After this years Worrell 1000 and the fact that the boat for next years worrell will be changed. And, that I felt that the teams should have the right to pick the boat you sail and compete on, and will always feel that choice should be left up to the teams involved, In any race!
along with alot of others that have money in the boats we own now are looking into begining another distance race for those of you sailors that aready have boats within class rules 18ft and 20 ft, that can't raise the buckets of money or buy special boats to to field teams in the worrell 1000.
The race in mind will be from the Keys to Tybee Island. Also this race would be completed in one (1) week, with checkpoints along the coast and most important of all you can run what you brung, in the 18 and 20 ft class with spinnaker! And for the fun of it, we want to put in some prize money.
Now, if this type of race should interest you and you would like to comment, plese contact me at: www.teamtybee.com
I, along with some others are working on this and collecting idears from you and would like your in put.
By the way, I know for those that aready know about this race and that we are working towards making this happen. We are not looking to conflict with or go up against the worrell 1000. That is most important! Again we will be listening and look forward to hearing from you!
Thank-You
Chuck Bargeron
Manager and President
Team Tybee Island Sailing Assoc., Inc.
sent in the following suggestions
-Formula rules would work best in allowing all the same basic length weight beam and sail area inc shute cat designs to race equally and fairly with a minimum of controversey. In the 20 class this would include the list of production boats with shutes or added shutes --as follows --Nacra 6/0 -Hobie 20,-H-Fox -any F-20 boat inc Storm and others from Europe , Mystere 20 , P-19 -modified Tornado to 8.5 beam ,-and Inter 20 .
Ideally you would modify the concepts in the basic Worrell rules and add that it be sailed under Formula rules on production and all rules compliant Formula 18 and 20 boats,-- Adding the 18 Formula Class to draw in the Hobie Tiger and Nacra Formula boats is a great idea as well , they may start 10 or 15 minutes earlier in a seperate class. It would be especially good to have more Hobie Class partisipation {Tiger mainly hopefully the Fox and mod H-20S} represented in major distance racing.
Some suggestions ,-let me know how to help , planning to have an official Open Formula 20 web site up soon with rules photos boat modification articles and rigging and race photos ,
here are the F -20 rules as proposed -also found on Catsailor under the F-20 Forum -
---OPEN FORMULA 20 CLASS
For people of good will to race together for the enjoyment of the sport in accordance with the Racing Rules of Sailing and in the spirit of rule #2 of fair sailing under ISAF rules –To compete within recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
Intent -.
To race 20-ft catamarans of various design features as a fleet on a first across the finish line wins basis, in buoys and distance racing.
Amendments—We wish to keep rules as simple as possible and rely on good intent of sailors in accordance with standard safety requirements per sailing rules and required gear and class principles as stated. Amendments per majority vote of active class members.
The Open-F20 Committee will propose amendments to the rule if necessary. Amendments shall be placed on one year’s notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit an unseaworthy feature. Formula 20 boats will often be sailed in Worrell type distance racing events and all components are to be constructed accordingly and sailed extensively in varied conditions before competing.
Basic specifications - OPEN FORMULA 20.
LENGTH –20 ft one inch max. —Stern to bow meas.
BEAM - 8.5 ft –max.hull point meas.
WEIGHT –two categories of boat wgt. –376 Lb. and above
-410 Lb. and above
-Definition boat weights –boat sails and all att gear fully rigged
Boats may add permanently fixed gear and floatation to meet min.
Corrector weights will also be allowed for boats under 376lb. total.
SAIL AREA –two corresponding categories
376 min boat wgt –MAINSAIL =210 sq. ft inc. mast --53 sq. ft jib +270 sq. ft spin, max.
410 min.boat weight MAINSAIL =210 sq. ft – 60 sq. ft jib + 290 sq. ft spin. Max.
Increases of 7-sq. ft. in jib and 20 sq. ft in spin area in 34-LB boat wgt differential.
Sail area may be traded off from main to jib of equal sq. ft to allow modification and design variation of sail plan to any max. S A combination of smaller main in category
All measurements per ISAF measurement rules, --see diagrams and instruction.
-Roller furlers and main reef points may be used. -
-All teams to use the same set of sails for a regatta or distance race.
Sailmakers and owners to list sq. ft in 2 inch numerals at the tack of each sail next to the sailmakers logo with signature over. All sails are to be commercially available to any sailing team. Existing class cat designs will be accepted as listed per mfg. or sailmaker. -Racing will be on the honor system, but any boat may be challenged and checked along with the protesting party also being checked for weight and sail area compliance. Those not in compliance will be DSQ for those races.
CREW –One or more may be crew. -All must be capable of righting from a capsize.
-CREW WEIGHT –-A class min of 320 Lb., one half of weight below may be carried by lighter teams to meet min req.-Example –a 300 team may carry 10 LB s to meet min.
Wgt based on teams wearing standard swim apparel and shirt.
-MASTS –May be of alum. or carbon fiber in standard section tapered or uniform and a Max 32 ft length. With-standard wire rigging in any configuration.
-HULLS -BOARDS and RUDDERS–Of any standard material or configuration.
SPIN POLES –a MAX 13 FT. length may be used made of any material in standard configuration with snuffer configuration of any type.
-
CLASS EMBLEM
The starboard side of the mainsail may carry the Open -Formula-20 logo of racing Formula 20s along with individual sail number for scoring purposes.
end
Discussion input and diverse ideas and perspectives always add to the general pool of knowledge in consideration of structuring a major distance racing event like this one planned and others to follow.
Main topics left out presently would be to add the Formula 16 hp and 18 ht Classes with seperate starts for each and also a non spin rated class for other boats wishing to compete as well .
post away!!
Carl
Carl,
I support the race and the formula. However, I do not think it is wise to bring both forward exclusively in the same event.
It would be best to limit the race to spinnaker/hooter equipt boats over a certain D-pn. After that score the boats by class/formula and overall. There are several programs that do this automatically.
What we want is the largest attendance to the race for sponsors and then for the organizers everyone finishing each leg somewhere in the same time frame.
As you know from the Worrell this is an important issue.
Steve
Carl you asked was I jus opposed to the formula 20 class.
I am not against it... The point i am making is that no one is FOR it.
Who in your local fleet , CRAM , has agreed with your plan?
Which N5.8 sailor has moved ahead with plans to upgrade their boat
Which Inter 20 sailor has said... sure... that is the way to go! I will get a smaller main sail for the iF20. rule.. or... Yeah... I need to change the boat to fit Carl’s rule.
Reality check. the consensus of the Hobie 20- sailors was.... Nah... not going to upgrade the boat to a formula rule... not worth it... at most I will put a chute on for distance races.. BUT.. I know I won’t be competitive with the I20's around a windward leeward course.
Reality Check. Eric Anderson of the New England Nacra 6.0- fleet said... nah... He could not see any sailors making signficant changes to their boats either... Oh... and the I20's will probably win around a windward leeward course because they are optimized for this kind of racing.
Tornado’s... would never compromise their boats by cutting down to 8' 6. I wouldn’t dream of it.
Bottom line.
You do not have ANY BUY IN for your rule and so that is why there is no one to go racing in your USA formula 20 class.
This is reality..
It is just not a big deal to most racers...
I support the evolution to formula racing in the US. However, this movement will be driven by new boat sales... NOT conversions of existing designs. Because of the small number of sailors racing 19 foot + boats Or spin equipped boats.... we must attempt to keep everyone sailing on most weekends by racing portsmouth.
Steve is correct in suggesting that the Tybee race organization should remain seperaate from your forumla class issue... If I understand him... He is suggesting a minimum PN number and then scoring everyone on portsmouth, one design and forumla (where apppropriate)
Mark,
You have quoted me right!!! I think its important that we promote racing and then worry about how to score it.
I have really looked over how they score sports car racing (especially the Rolex 24) and I think we need to adopt their formula to up the number of sailors and then let evolution happen.
On distance racing I think we should place limits as to minimum DPN and make spin/hooters mandatory as well as certain safety equipment.
On safety equipment -- you can't race a car without a helmet. You should race a sailboat in the ocean without an epirb, gps and life jackets ...... period.
Just my thoughts.
Steve
Most boats are usually within an hour or so of the finish, even in the Key largo race the High portsmith fleet was not that far away considering the experience and cats w/o spinakers. This is a new race do not lay out a bunch elite criteria other than some common sense rules . Nacra F 18 and Hobie Foxes are'nt going to fill the starts.I Would like to see an open door policy that takes into consideration any cat , most people contemplating a venture such as this will govern themselves. Mass participancy will excellerate this races appeal and fortitude. Nacra 5.2 Formula 17
Bob,
Look at the finish times for Round the Island. Year after year your looking at times ranging from 4 to 9 hours after the lead 20 foot boat. Take that and do it five days in a row.
Its not a crew/boat issue it is a race committee issue. How many people do you know who want to volunteer for 5 - 18 hour days just for you to race your boat?? This is why I am saying try to keep the DPN's close so that day after day most boats will finish with in a few hours of the lead boats.
As for the elitest boat attitude that's bull#@$*! Take a 5.5 uni (sail it solo) put a reacher on it and you have the DPN range that I'm thinking of. Also, you'll need to know that most of the course that the race is running would be downwind 85% of the time. I wouldn't do it on a SC22 without a chute! Let alone a H16. I'm not in to that kind of pain.
I'm not talking about keeping people out, I'm talking about keeping the fleet close --- best for everyone and alot safer than trying to figure out where 50 - 60 boats are at every hour of the day for 5 days. Look at the Worrell, you have 5 hours seperating identical boats what is going to happen to boats with huge DPN differences???
Just a few more thoughts.
Steve
CRAC has run several Down the Bay's and C100 distance races over the years.
The racers are typically average cat sailors. The stress of the Race comiitee increases exponentionally when the sun sets and X boat has not reported in. This is compounded when a spouse starts worrying and demanding that you "do something". Finally, the coast guard is also not pleased when a tired but safe sailor launches a flare and the coast guard fires up their helicopter. Race committe was NOT pleased when the coast guard is grilling you about the missing boat. Nor is Race Committe happy when a capsized boat is spotted with No crew only to find them swiming in the middle of the bay without ANY of the common sense saftey equipment.
(All true stories of the past 7 years.)
Race committe's sole responsibility is to establish and maintain a start and finish line conditions permiting. Nevertheless, its human to feel responsible for all of the boats in your fleet.
Common sense boundaries are important for the sanity of the RC and romantic notions that such a race is within the scope of all sailors should be dispelled.
Take Care
Mark
Good suggestions -
The race organizer will most likely adopt the Worrell policy of having all entrants submit a sailing resume with races completed and miles logged.to qualify for entry ---
Please read the DANGER TO LIFE ,aspect of the W-1000 rules ,-it is now printed on numerous t shirts with photos from Hatteras ,--catsailers contemptlating this race must also realize what they are in for in realizing their capabilities of sailing in potentially severe conditions on the open Atlantic with legs of 120 miles or less.
Required safety equipement --{also see W-1000 rules }-include an EPIRB on jacket ,-strobe -light-whistle ,GPS -CELL PHONE ,Charts safety lines ,life jackets , drysuits -should be aded,-etc.
The race organizer has also listed 20s and 18s w shutes as basic classes for the 500 mile distance event over a week----
Some may wish to enter a 27 or 30 to get there first, some may similarly want larger beam larger shutes hooter type sails and other extreme design advantages , this along with av timed ratings is a different game than the Worrell has traditionally been about and leaves the numerous flaws within the particular rating system to deside the outcome . The best type of racing ,most easily understood , considered fair and equal is first across the line wins . -- Formula class cat designs having the same basic box measurements of Length Beam Weight and Sail Area and provide this for this type of major championship or Worrell type event .
I,m very encouraged by the responces to F-20 along with the 16 and 18 Formula Classes now being established .
-Most top active racing catsailors are becomming involved with Formula racing , look through the list of names what they are involved with and one can readily see the continued future direction of the sport .
Others wish to remain negative ,that is their perogative that seems to stem from limited experience , MFG. or financial interests , a desire to keep a small group in tact in which they feel they can win races , or a percieved advantage from ratings they feel they need .
-Again -the vast majority of catsailors prefer Class racing as a true test of sailing ,boat tuning and preparation, navagation,and seamanship skills.
There is certainly room for more great distance racing Worrell type events like the Formula 500 Keys to Tybee Race being Planned ,-Hope to see other similar events in the works soon .
Sail Hard -as Jay John the boat guy and crew say,-
-All the best -Carl
Hi Mark -the lone T Ranger
even he consulted with Tonto listened earnistly and could change his ways and course when he realised his mistakes .
Your mission statement on P ratings continues to lead you down the wrong course Keemosby , especially now in the face of emerging established Formula Classes ,
Mark ,-the base central issue is this --Your experience and comment of not returning to a regatta is one echoed and stated repeatedly by many placed in a ratings group of disimilar cat designs over the years helping lead to the sports decline .
this base central issue needs to be understood clearly , again catsailors overwhelingly prefer class racing ,first over the line wins .
Vast numbers sail H Classes FOR THIS REASON alone!!or like yourself if there are not suffecient numbers to race in a class they stay home and do not return and avoid rated racing.
-The best thing happening in the sport is the integration of all catsailing into equal LENGTH Beam Weight,- Sail Area,- classes called Formula obviously leading to larger ,more interesting exciting events and growth in the sport . Growth in the sport means better racing ,more competition ,better events ,sponsorship availability , more market share for builders mfg.cos -sail makers etc . That is exactly what is WRONG with the current Hobiecentric policy failed in the past and your misguided insistance of keeping small discordinated little groups sailing averaged times to determine a winner.
P Ratings are appropriately used when a small diverse group of boats wish to race locally together in the absence of class racing .Major races should not be desided on the numerous flaws inherent in any rating system .
Major championship events and Major distance racing events are a test of sailing , boat prep,navagational , stategic, and seamanship skills desided on equal boats with fair racing on a first across the line wins basis .
This is has and will continue to be recognized by most knowledgable catsailors and race organizers.
Hi Majsteve
Do think i remember you breaking your ribs during the Worrell one year . OOUUCCHH !!
Was and am still hoping for a similar pro-sail type series racing event that a number of us sailed in in 88 . The Prosail and Ultimate Yacht Race events on H-21s and Formula 40s ,on NBC Sports and ESPN .
yOU MENTIONED AN INTEREST IN BEGINNING ONE ON FORMULA 22S --hope it is still in the works for future years ahead. --Let me know if I can help.
You seem to want to race with a hooter type headsail ,presume on the H-20 with a very favorable rating number , this would be a nice advantage over most in light wind conditions upwind often experience along the Florida coastline in the morning before the seabreeze really kicks in and could potentially win a leg of the race if the weather pattern stayed that way for the duration of that leg , BUT ,what does it show prove or say about racing .--only that a hooter type headsail works well in that particular set of conditions .
Think the race organizer is looking for a truer test of sailing skill as opposed to which rigging headsail option works best in which contition .
Pick up a good shute ,--they do close reach really well ,-and just race equally on a first across the line wins basis . It is much more fun and a truer test of sailing ,tactical ,boat prep ,navagation and seamanship skills.
Can,t imagine trying to race a Prosail type event with ratings ,-No one or spectator would ever really know who won ,it would be very dull,and always considered unfair by some due to the inherant flaws in any rating system .
Hope to see you there .
Carl
reply to Mark
Mark's quote {You do not have ANY BUY IN for you rule and so that is why there is no one to go racing in your USA formula 20 class.
This is reality..
It is just not a big deal to most racers... }
unquote
mARK-, your pethic attitude here and comment on not returning to the Spring Fever Regatta typifies by emample what is and has been WRONG in the sport.-It is not a big deal to YOU , does not directly involve YOU ,so why would any others care , ---All your vague references ,insinuations , and misguided opinions are a waste of time , suggest you get onto something more positive , get involved with the 18 HT Formula CLASS , something positive that you CAN partisipate in for the sport and for yourself.
I,m very encouraged by the responce of many interested in the Formula 20 class throughout North America.
Carl
-In the 20 class this would include the list of production boats with shutes or added shutes --as follows --Nacra 6/0 -Hobie 20,-H-Fox -any F-20 boat inc Storm and others from Europe , Mystere 20 , P-19 -modified Tornado to 8.5 beam ,-and Inter 20 .
-Included the T as we definately wanted to include as many as possible in the F-20 Class with class min boat weight based on the T and there are 8.5 beam Tornados in existance and the opportunity to take excellent older Tornado basic boat or hulls and rebuild a F-20 boat with 8.5 bem which would be very competitive and relatively inexpensive.
Any 20 ft 8.5 beam boat with the similar Inter 20 carbon mast and same basic sail area will have similar or evan superior speed capabilities.
Would like to see the Fox rethought to outperform the I-20, and a similar retrofit package available for the Hobie 20 with a taller carbon fiber comtip replacement {half the weight ,} with new main and a really nice T type snuffer and shute system .
Below is an excellent copy of the shute retrofit system by Chris T he placed on his Nacra 6/0 ,--similarly applied to any 20 footer for about 1600 bucks.
The following is a copy of an excellent post by Chris T in fitting his N 6/0 WITH A SHUTE OVER THE WINTER , which can be applied to any 20 footer,-----
I have some pics of my boat with the spin/snuffer set up. I was at spring fever racing with this set up on my boat, Accelerated Chaos, and it seemed to worked great! I had a blast and don't see the need to change much after this initial regatta with the 'new' snuffer rig. More time and exerience with a kite around the bouys and I believe it will be competitive with most I20's out there, as proven by Rick Bliss at SF.
email me and I can send you pictures:
just as a side note, I spent less than 2K putting the rig together. 2K is a good estimate to plan on, but lower costs can be achieved. my prices included:
carbon spin pole from sailing proshop: 156.00
new 6.0 smyth spin @ 350 sq. ft.: 965.00? (aprox)
carbon snuffer head from dave white, a north east 6.0 sailor: 300.00
adapted snuffer bag from skip elliot: 110.00
slightly longer bridle wires: 80.00
additional expenses included the hailard, spinlock, and extraneous pieces of line
with a total cost of just over $1600.00
The deal with the spin head from Dave white is that he started building them as an alternative to the Inter heads that cost almost $200 more. (At one time he worked for Hall Spars) they are 100% carbon, aprox 2/3rds the weight of the inter heads, flat to give more wave clearance, and about 3/4" wider. I was amazingly happy with how mine worked and found that it accepted the 'football' that gathers in the larger sails more readily than the I20 heads did when I tried them. I believe he has plans to build more of these, but would certainly check with him before making any promises.
Rick Bliss at newengland catamarans was a great resourse for information and parts to put this system together. He is selling a snuffer head from austrailia that is also flatter and lighter for I believe $400, which is still a $75 savings over the Inter factory heads. I used this head as well and was very happy with it. I would suggest that anyone who is thinking of adding a snuffer system to their 6.0 talk to him about it and tap into his experience of the development that has happened here in the northeast.
once again, if you would like to see pics of this rig or hear more about it, feel free to contact me. I worked at putting this rig together this winter and would be glad to discuss what I have found so far.
sail fast and have fun~
Chris Titcomb
N6.0na 135, accelerated chaos
thanks so much again Chris for this info -
added note -
some older existing designs may be given dispensation ,--that is a trade off in design features such as a heavier mast and rig and smaller main in compensation for a larger shute for example upon owner request as per other existing Formula Classes to begin..
This will be tested during the year and found to be fair or not on the race course , and resolved accordingly by better minds than mine hopefully , though actual race results speak volumes.
Carl
Carl,
I read this in the above post "After this years Worrell 1000 and the fact that the boat for next years worrell will be changed. And, that I felt that the teams should have the right to pick the boat you sail and compete on, and will always feel that choice should be left up to the teams involved, In any race!" Does this mean that I can sail my 18HT boat or a Marstrom 20 in the Tybee race?
Chris
First Its not the attitude that is elite but the criteria of why you can't and we can. You just detonated your own argument about who's in and who's out of this race.Yes there is a huge timeslot from first to last or the last seven or so finishers of the worrell. Lets boot them out of next years and make room for the " maybe we can do betters", but we can not do that because you never know when some of these teams are gonna get their groove on and place. So whats the difference about who is let in this race,just figure an estimated time that each class abides by per leg if you are over an alloted time for the leg you will be notified or you will call yourselves in and take a penalty. I know you still do not want the so called slow boats in the parade ! People will govern themselves by govern I mean they will know there own limits or not attempt the leg or perform better than expected or maybe god forbid actually enjoy themselves on whatever cat they own. A good sailor on a Hobie 16 can wreck havoc in an open portsmith regatta,M2KL 2001 comes to mind who the hell knew the conditions would have been right for the 16's.Keep the race open and everything else will fall into place. Here is a brand new opportunity about to be rubber coated by an omnipotent pompous minded few. Good Luck !
majsteve, Bob,
The question at hand regarding this race is: Is it focused on media exposure, or is it for the sailors?
I think for the media and regular people to grasp the concept of a race such as this, it will have to be constrained to a particular boat or formula(s) as Carl has suggested. A splathering of boats makes the race so much more complicated for the media to understand and can be quite confusing. To grow this new race into an event with publicity and prize money, it will take class racing or formula. While I would like to see a formula 20 class take off, I don't think it's would happen with the existing and diverse 20 footers out there already.
However, if it is a race for the sailors by the sailors, it should be for all involved and open to Portsmouth with a limit on the DPN rating. Open ocean racing for consecutive days should be limited to the faster and larger boats if nothing else but from a safety standpoint.
Carl
The key word in your argument is dissimlar boats.
You are correct, no one has fun racing hobie waves against Inter 20's on portsmouth. I have never suggested that anyone run regattas in this manner. Clubs that do this will not see many of the legacy boats return to their event. Nor will they reverse the decline in attendance. I do not WANT to race my Dart against the Inter 20 and Tornado... They can lap me for christ's sake and I can still win.... I would be much happier racing against the Hobie 17's and Nacra 5.5 Uni's.
I have always proposed level bands of portsmouth racing to promote the sport.
Here's a possible circumstance
Cram has an active 5.8 fleet. What should the 5.8 fleet do in your area if a sailor with a P19 shows up. ... Tell the P19... no... you should race in the 3 boat portsmouth fleet with a Wave, etc etc because we race one design here... Its the fairest competion and its is the most fun. Oh... By the way, we can hook you up with a 5.8??? Johnny wants a new inter 20 or Tiger...
The 5.8 fleet is taking a gamble.
They win if the guy with P19 sells the boat and buys a 5.8.... and comes out to race. They loose if the guy with the P19 says... well... I tried this racing thing... Wasn't much fun racing that plactic Wave... and the 5.8's wouldn't let me play... Well... I will go compete in volleyball and keep my P19 for rec sailing. See Ya CRAM.
CRAC has lost all of the little boats (P16's and N5.2's etc) because they do not have much fun racing P19's and Tornado's. They would have a blast racing Hobie 16's and Hobie 18's respecitively on portsmouth or even up. You are correct... they do not want to race portsmouth aginst Tornado's... We cannot offer them a fun competitive race and so they are out of the sport. We have not been able to address this problem for years.... Now.. two regattas in our area (Hobie events) officially exclude the slow boats because they slow down the racing...... Its not a big deal because we have already lost most of those guys anyway... In reality, they want to keep the lone Isotope in the open fleet on the beach. These sailors do not go out and buy an approved racing boat (formula or one design class ) though.
In summary... people don't continue to go racing because "its one design... or it's formula"... They go racing because the boats are fast and fun, the sailing should be close and exciting and the people on the beach have a good time. As the sailing world editorial noted... If you go racing... odds are something will happen... and that will be fun! He commits one design heresy and states that handicap racing is the best hope for this scene.
OCRA has a succesful racing program... the Hobie fleet structure had to collapse in that area before OCRA could emerge from the ashes. Pity to have to recapitulate this time and time again around the country.
This debate does not belong in the Tybee distance race thread. But ... the Tybee organizers need to state what they are looking for. Jake is correct.. Is this an event for sailors.... Or a second signature event like the Worrel complete with sponsors and media exposure except we get to use the I20's we have.
Hi Chris --good question
Organizing any major event is a difficult task , it is always very easy to critisize the Worrell or any event but we in the vast majority are very happy it is run each year along with the positive exposure to our great sport and the fantasic racing capturing the imagination of human potential and basic human spirit it inspiresin many., Race organizers wish to appoint a committee of knowledgable catsailors to oversee the measurement and rules aspect of the Tybee race just as we have done in the Worrell with sails ,safety inspections etc with appointed race officials and staff which do a tremendous job each year.
-Just as in the Worrell on 18hts Bimars proposed for next year the Tybee organizers have stated their desire for the race to be in 18s and 20s with shutes . Some events are class specific ,-this year some of the major events are Wave Natl's --at Ricks ,-A Class Worlds East Coast ,-Hobie Natl's in Oct at Kirks --, Performance. Natls -in Traverse City MI in Sept ,along with Formula 18 Championships.-Tornado Olympic qualifying events ,-F-16 events ,-and numerous 18 ht events ,--plus numerous other major events and distance races sometimes limited plus the Worrell 1000 and new Keys to Tybee race.
If I had the time and $ I would love to race and sail in them all ,
really hope to try the 18ht and race the W-1000 also next year if that remains the only choise of boat , all racing is good .I enjoy them all and hope to race in several classes as many catsailors now do .
Should catsailors race a H-14 in 120 mile distance race legs , or should 30s be entered , once you start limiting entrants to catagory to provide fair equal racing how do you best accomplish this .--
The application of similar length Formula classes for this type of major distance racing is the correct one .Are you planning on the 03 Worrell on your 18ht B .-many of us would like to learn more about these ht boats before making a decision ,-
thanks
Carl
Carl,
Yes I am still working on the series project. With the downturn in corporate spending we are off a year. Still waffling back and forth from 22-24 foot overall length but the boats will all be HT light.
As for the TYBEE 500, I'm looking at how Mike got the Worrell restarted back in 97. You remeber bring a 20' boat and come race. Really basic rules -- no weight limitations other than class legal and add the head sail. We few lunatics that came out and raced started the Modern Worrell. We had nacra's, mystere's, hobie's and a G-cat that first year. The next year (98) it was all nacra's and Mystere's except for Woody on his H20. Then it was all 6.0s (99) --- then in 2000 came the one design worrell.
I'm kind of looking at the 500 the same way. Run it as a open event (the first year 18-22ft boats) see what comes out of it the by length. THe next year establish formula issues by sailor input. then go from there.
I have to admit there was alot of fun in that "run way you brung" worrell of 97. More than anything that worrell brought numbers and attention to the race. Kind of set the foundation that the race is being built on today.
No event is going to be a turn key winner! I never realized how much BS there way until we started to work on the series. Its real easy when you race in one spont but when you travel it becomes a logistical nightmare for the organizers.
I must say this I have heard alot of crap said about Mike Worrell 99.9% of it untrue. But he will always have my unmost respect for the effort and logistical expertice that he puts into the !000. He has about the thickest skin of anyone in our sport, something that anyone crazy enough to want to organize an event should think about BEFORE they open thier mouth.
Steve
Hi Steve
You may have a good idea though it would be better to have 3 starts and classes ,-F-18 --F-20 And the open rated class . It is nice to have choices,--though the 30 would set records each leg and well sailed T would win on corrected time .
Hi Bob ,-
don't think any are trying to be elitists in limiting types of boats , it is more a matter of practicality ,-you may want to race a 100 mile distance race on the 5.2 {great cat } then deside if it is a good application for 7 days of the same on the open Atlantic .
posted this on distance races and info and opinion from U K catsailors about 6 months ago ,-an interesting look back now with the new propose 18 ht B and package for next years Worrell ,--hope to see them in the near future.
The following on the Worrell ,-currently sailed on Inter 20s ,-
and the problems of racers encountered , with some potential solutions ,--hopfully these same solutions are impetus for beginning the 20 class .
date 12 29 01
-Recieved a really great e recently from the U K catsailors ,-the perspective of travel , boat availability , costs and associated problems are identified perfectly and apply to all catsailors to some degree.
portions as follows --
-thanks .....in the absence of major sponsorship it is likely that UK attendance to the Worrell will be sporadic over the next few years. The new Polish event, while nowhere in the same class as the Worrell, will now divert the attention of European Long Distance racers, if only because it is easier logistically. I talked to several recently, and said that they want to do the Worrell again one day, but this year have included Poland on the agenda as major event for 2002.
Personally, the Worrell remains my major lifetime sailing ambition, but it will only ever be possible if I can be successful enough to raise funds or obtain sponsorship over and above my normal sailing budget one year.
The problem with the Worrell for most Europeans is that it is almost too hard! The pictures and reports of cats being trashed in the surf, and other hardships, conspire to create the impression that the race is too hard for normal sailors - they are scared of making the transatlantic trip (at great expense) and then getting trashed on day 1 or 2!! I can imagine that there are many very good cat sailors around the world who could put up a good performance, but just don't have the experience of beach starts and surf that other Worrell veterans do. It isn't an incentive for them when they know that although they could compete on the open water, the whole race might be won or lost just based on a few minutes of surf handling.
What is needed for non USA crews is a defined package at a fixed cost that provides both equipment and backup and support. This would enable people to at least know what sort of figure they would have to raise, without the doubt that they would not get at least a good weeks sail.
On the other hand, the Worrells status as the worlds hardest race - the triathlon, Iditerod, marathon, of the cat scene, is also it's biggest attraction, so it couldn't be made too easy!!
END -
Again the difficulties and problem are indentified perfectly ,-
The answer of course for major events and regattas with added internatiional competition is more sponsorship availability, better coverage {already in progress} , more dealer and boat mfg.- involvement --more race organization ,-
better central organization ,-
Formula Classes having involvement from several boat mfg. and healthy competition that it brings with more potential oportunities ,connections and much broader base of sailing talent, may be the best format for future major events .
Performance and the wonderfull folks associated with them have done a great service to the sport in helping provide the Inter 20 for the Alter cup and Worrell events in past years.-
-We have been attempting to find a way to begin a Formula 20 class ,-the existing differences between boats of boat weight and sail area in the U S are difficult to solve . -WE WILL KEEP TRYING .--No shortage of persistance here .
-It would be wonderfull to have Hobie Foxes -Mystere 20s ,-Inter 20s ,all the current Euro 20s -and several other 20s line up for future events like the Worrell and other future major events, and events yet to be .
-As others have stated , I would also very much enjoy the larger potential pool of sailors ,boat mfg. companies involvement , sponsor availability , leading to more potential major events or a circuit of major events , certainly to larger sponsored events reducing costs to sailors ,which we have the beginnings of as one looks through the list of races and events here on Catsailor .
The 18s hold promise , hope the N A F-18 grows this season and minor differences are resolved . -The F-16S -and 18 HT Classes point to the future of the sport , these have great appeal and may evolve in the U S faster with the desire for lighter faster sailing , ---interesting times ahead .
though I,ve heard that is also an ancient curse ,--{may you live in interesting times ,}
We all need to continue to contribute as we are able , do the best we can , and continue to hope for a better future . I sence tremendous opportunity ahead for boat mfg,-race organizers ,-and sailors in this age of instant communication ,media and advertisement . It is a wonderfull sport ,filled with human history and character building traditions.We need to make it better for ourselves and future generations of sailors and catsailors .
-Hoping this will help create new ideas and active involvement .
-See you out there this season ,
All the best
-date 12 28 01
Carl
Interesting turn of events since then , Mike W with the help of W F and Bimar have addressed these problems noted by the U K CATSAILORS ,-the 18ht Bimar class will get a big boost if the boat holds together through a Worrell 1000 well.
-The Formula Classes may actually do a much better job of addressing this logistal problem of boat availability as so many more types of boats would potentially be available through numerous individual catsailors and several manufacturers and boat dealers.-
The Tybee race may become the most popular race in a short time with its potential for a very large number of entrants on numerous types of cat designs INCLUDING THE LARGE HOBIE CONTINGENT POOL, with the potential for Tigers Foxes and mod H-20s added to the already large list potentially creating more interest with its broader class -boat mfg. and sailors partisipation base.
We will see !!
Carl
Carl,
I certainly hope that the F20 concept does take off. I think the formula class racing will be very important for larger, more visible teams, to achieve the fundraising necessary to bring the status of this race up a few notches.
Jake
The F-16 hp 18s and 18ht seem to be progressing well ,-no reason why the 20s will not follow ,particularly with great events planned .
As you noted Jake ,the other major aspect of the Tybee race will be media coverage , obviously they need Rick here on Catsailor to handle the main coverage of the race as official site , that along with team web sites many already kept in place year round will assist in helping obtain a major race sponsor /-sponsors .
Beyond normal entry fee for race officials and staff I would be happy to add for in for a similar movie documentary type film to be made , similar to the excellent job Robert and Jeanie do each year with the Worrell ,but filmed with several on board waterproof cameras more from the catsailors perspective , this along with sponsors race promotion and contacting other major media and publications as well as all the sailing related publications will insure the race gets off to a great start .A major media sponsor like Volvo ,Coke ,-Pepsi ,Catilac ,etc as in the Pepsi Formula 500 with ESPN T V time WOULD BE IDEAL , it is in the near future.
Would also be happy to chip in for consultation with a sports marketing firm to assist .
Without ideas preparation plans and attempts to achieve them nothing happens , what is there to loose, at the least we will have another great race and great time.
Carl
Hi Carl,
I hope the F 20 can come together but as we discussed in the past the problem with the existing boats is the huge difference in boat weights. It would be almost better to do a grandfather clause for boats built before 1999-2000 and then have a weight minimum for boats 2001 and newer. Kind of a 20 leveler rule. weigh everything to call it an adjusted boat weight --- not perfect but getting closer. set a provision for HT class boats under f20 that people just get to over time due to the life expectancy of a production boat. Let Darwin take its course.
As for the 500 --- care, water and feeding will bring a huge event.
Chuck,
1. GO FOR IT!
2. I am in Organizational Planning,...the hardest step is what you have just done,...the first step.
3. The rest evolves,....sometimes as chaos,....which is what you are seeing now,....so you are on the right track!
If you need help,...write me.
Bruce Andryc
St. Croix, USVI
Hope some are enjoying the night pic of Dave and me in this years Worrell . {you can right click and zoom in }Team member Chris Zander ,{also a comercial artist } made our sponsors logo {fish } from a reflective material lighting up at night ,--
A great added safety feature that all teams , sail, and sail mfg.eventually should adopt.
Always controversial crew weight and boat weight issues in any racing .
The crew weight on the 20s is less of a factor due to generous sail plans per designers and larger basic more buoyant platform ,--most Worrell teams were 340 -350 LBS some were min 325 , believe the current I-20 natl,champs are 390 or 400 LBS,--a nice wide range of proven competitive crew weights to sail .
Boat weights vary between designs ,--The F 20 rule has adopted the Tornado boat weight as min.class boat weight -376 LBS .
There also is a second catagory of boat weights for older existing designs of 410LBS and up like the H-20 , N-6-0 ,-existing Euro F-20 BOATS ,Mystere and others ,. As compensation for this weight older existing designs are given an added 30 sq ft of spin area .
Other Formula classes do this for crew weight {allow added spin area },but it is not needed on the 20s and is therefor used to compensate the differencial in existing boat weights hopefully allowing older boats to remain very competitive with this added 30 sq ft of spin area. The two catagories of boat weights 376 +LBS and 410 +have 270 and 300 sq ft spin areas respectively, -
-Here are a copy of prop.-- Open Formula Class Rules -
-OPEN FORMULA 20 CLASS
For people of good will to race together for the enjoyment of the sport in accordance with the Racing Rules of Sailing and in the spirit of rule #2 of fair sailing under ISAF rules –To compete within recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
Intent -.
To race 20-ft catamarans of various design features as a fleet on a first across the finish line wins basis, in buoys and distance racing.
Amendments—We wish to keep rules as simple as possible and rely on good intent of sailors in accordance with standard safety requirements per sailing rules and required gear and class principles as stated. Amendments per majority vote of active class members.
The Open-F20 Committee will propose amendments to the rule if necessary. Amendments shall be placed on one year’s notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit an unseaworthy feature. Formula 20 boats will often be sailed in Worrell type distance racing events and all components are to be constructed accordingly and sailed extensively in varied conditions before competing.
Basic specifications - OPEN FORMULA 20.
LENGTH –20 ft one inch max. —Stern to bow meas.
BEAM - 8.5 ft –max.hull point meas.
WEIGHT –two categories of boat wgt. –376 Lb. and above
-410 Lb. and above
-Definition boat weights –boat sails and all att gear fully rigged
Boats may add permanently fixed gear and floatation to meet min.
Corrector weights will also be allowed for boats under 376lb. total.
SAIL AREA –two corresponding categories
376 min boat wgt –MAINSAIL =210 sq. ft inc. mast --53 sq. ft jib +270 sq. ft spin, max.
410 min.boat weight MAINSAIL =210 sq. ft – 60 sq. ft jib + 300 sq. ft spin. Max.
Increases of 7-sq. ft. in jib and 30 sq. ft in spin area in 34-LB boat wgt differential.
Sail area may be traded off from main to jib of equal sq. ft to allow modification and design variation of sail plan to any max. S A combination of smaller main in category
All measurements per standard current ISAF measurement rules, --see diagrams and instruction.
-Roller furlers and main reef points may be used. -
-All teams to use the same set of sails for a regatta or distance race, but may be replaced if severely damaged to allow a team to continue racing with the permission of race organizers per event racing instructions.
Sailmakers and owners to list sq. ft in 2 inch numerals at the tack of each sail next to the sailmakers logo with signature over. All sails are to be commercially available to any sailing team. Existing class cat designs will be accepted as listed per mfg. or sailmaker. -Racing will be on the honor system, but any boat may be challenged and checked along with the protesting party also being checked for weight and sail area compliance. Those not in compliance will be DSQ for those races.
CREW –One or more may be crew. -All must be capable of righting from a capsize.
-CREW WEIGHT –-A class min of 320 Lb., one half of weight below may be carried by lighter teams to meet min req.-Example –a 300 team may carry 10 LB s to meet min.
Wgt based on teams wearing standard swim apparel and shirt.
-MASTS –May be of alum. and/or carbon fiber or combinations of non conducting materials in standard section tapered or uniform and a Max 32 ft length. With-standard wire rigging in any configuration.
-HULLS -BOARDS and RUDDERS–Of any standard material or configuration.
SPIN POLES –a MAX 14 FT. length may be used made of any material in standard configuration with snuffer configuration of any type.
Dispensation -
Older existing designs may be given dispensation per F-20 committee by owners request in design feature trade offs -
example = an existing heavier mast rig and standard class smaller mainsail in compensation for larger spin area, again only applied to older existing designs per owners request .
contact O F 20 committee --carlcrdesign@aol.com
-
CLASS EMBLEM
The starboard side of the mainsail may carry the Open -Formula-20 logo of racing Formula 20s along with individual sail number for scoring purposes.
Carl,
You and I have talked about this before -- the dreaded boat weight issue.
Here is the weight of both my 'old' 20 footers that I would/could sail.
1998 Nacra 6.0 --- 348 lbs
1996 Hobie 20 --- 305 lbs
Crew weight (myself and normal crew)
Me 198 lbs
Crew 180 lbs
Total -- 378 lbs
Total combined
Nacra 6.0 -- 726 lbs
Hobie 20 -- 683 lbs
Under both of your proposed weights I have to add weight to the boat and I'm giving up 58 lbs to lighter crews. So we're sailing anywhere to 80 - 150 lbs heavier than anyother boatsout there without a way to level the field.
I'm just saying really look at these issues. Oh yes these boat weights are certified. So those in doubt I can supply the paperwork to prove it.
The sail area issue should be adjusted to crew weights more than boat weights and ideally to combined weights to truely make each boat/ crew even in available horsepower.
Steve
Thank you,
I have been following the worrell and wondering how I could ever participate. The more I read about it and know about myself the more it looks like a dream that will not happen. Your proposal comes at the perfect time for me. I can do a 1 week race in Fla. on my Inter 20 and look forward to being at the starting line and in one piece at the finish line.
Steve,,,
Do you mean 448 for your N6.0,, and 405 for your H20 ??
This brings up a good point,, although quite outside of the scope of this thread. But here goes,,, What is the most reasonably accurate and economical means of weighing a boat ?? (4)walmart scales ?? I am sure there have been some innovative ideas tried out there.
Who said life was supposed to be fair. Again people arguing that a race should not happen because it will not be fair, their boat has too little sail or their gut keeps them from being compettive on a H16. If winning is so important then these people should only race in their class association races. I have said it before and I will say it again. I will race any 20ft boat and I do not care how you have modified it or how heavy you and your crew are. If you want to fly a 600 Sq foot spin, and can keep the boat on the water then you will win and I will still have a great time racing against you. And I will learn what it takes to fly a 600 SQFT spin. If someone feels a need to buy a new sail to win a $5 trophy so that they can tell their yacht club buddies that they won a race then so be it, I like to sit around a bon fire on the beach and tell lies about the time I flipped my boat in 3ft of water 100 yards from shore.
Sail hard, sheet in, go fast. not some fantasy about how I am the greatest sailor in the world this week because the right combination of mistakes, wind and luck provided by God caused someone to win a cat race. If your personality is offended by losing a race then dont race and seek proffessional help. OK Rant over please blast me now.
Great Marc ,-be sure to e mail team Tybee {race organizers }and give them your suggestions and support .
Also really like your proposed major distance race in Texas ,-
I,ve sailed in Corpus Cristy and Padre Islands in years past ,it seems like another great venue possibley up to Fort Walton Beach in the Gulf, with help from fleets along the coast this similar type of Worrell race may expand from one of the great existing distance races in Texas ,-I,msure several of the excellent catsailing teams from TX are up for it.
note on Steve's weight prop. -
In an ideal catsailing world all teams would be the exact same height ,weight, strength, hearing and sight, etc,all physical human factors ,--in attempting to equalize them we often just compound problems and inadvertantly discriminate in other areas, --just look at fatboy rules attempted.
crew weight is desided by each team in choosing who to team up and race with , heavier crew weight is an advantage in higher wind conditions allowing a team more ft lbs of righting moment on the wire to hold the boat down ,, sometimes bows up .-To compensate lighter teams in the ideal catsailing world in higher winds adjustable racks would be added allowing an equalization of ft lbs or righting moment ,-team height would also have to be factored into the rack distance equation from hulls for each team along with weight, you then could allow heavier crew teams added proportional sail area as you propose as a solution , without both you are discriminating against lighter teams . --Now you have a nightmare of measurements enforcement checks , and for teams each time a crew is changed or both loose weigh a new sail is needed , those with different or replacement crew are not class legal etc etc,--not a practical ,realistic ,or fair solution .---
The solution for the Hobie 20 is to add a new carbon fiber replacement comtip and new main along with spin and snuffer system to equal or surpass the performance of the current I-20s speed potential , Add safety gear ,compasses etc needed , this will bring the boat weight to 410 and allow the 300 sq ft spin ,-The added horsepower will more than make your team competitive . As you know there are numerous ways to take weight out of any existing cat especially the N-6-0 ,-to bring it to min boat weight 410 . The mfg. should never allow these types of weight variations in the first place . This boat would not be competitive without this modification in any class or type of racing .fix it .
--One should not confuse existing problems in design and building and presuppose them onto a new Formula class that is attempting to allow modifications and upgrades to help allow catsailors to correct these inherant problems .
New techniques in racing the 20s have really jumped up the speed potential in this length catagory as we all have seen in this years Worrell with 6 new leg records set , {often by 350-360 lb teams } -which most that race it will tell you is the ideal weight range , and over this distance and range of weather becomes a true test of sailing , tactical ,boat prep, navagational,endurance,and seamanship skills.
How is about truck stops? All big truck stops have certified scale (I think with 10 lbs precision, It can be verified at fuel desk). Drive in with boat on trailer, get a weight, park at lot, get a boat out of trailer and weight truck and empty trailer one more time. For total cost of 7 bucks (6-first time and 1 for second) one can get a boat weight up to 10 lbs accuratcy.
Just a wild idea:-) - I used to be a truck driver