I am glad someone found the same one dutch scientist that bush has been trotting out for the last eight years to compensate for every other scientist on the planet. There is No debate about this among the gehuinely informed people. WAKE UP! Also, fill up a glass with water all the way, now heat it up. What happens. Molecules expand when they get warmer and so in turn does the VOLUME stupid! You dont even need melting ice to raise sea levels. I cant believe this is even a discussion. what is everyone here gonna do when 2 billion refugees want to get to high ground. Good thing all the doubters have lots and lots of guns and god is on there side too.
Does that mean I will get thinner if I move to someplace cold? <img src=
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I could be wrong here, but water molecules expand when they freeze. That's why a bottle of water (or beer, or coke) will bust if you freeze it...
Jake?
yeah, it expands when it freezes, but it also expands when it is heated (which is why you need a pressurized expansion tank on a water heater system). That said, however, I've never heard figures about the ocean rise due to expansion of the water and am skeptical that it would amount to much.
The fact about all this though, is that we can do something about the filth we put into the atmosphere. Cheap? Not necessarily but neither is trying to figure out how to live on the moon (that was sarcasm).
If fuel efficient cars aren't selling, why are the Honda and Toyota companies continuing to grow and post considerable profits? The big automakers openly admit that they missed the ball and simply don't have attractive fuel efficient cars available.
Jake?
Thats what I thought... but hey, I've been wrong before. Of course, I don't know why I blasted my son for putting that soda can in the freezer, forgetting about it and it almost exploded, ends all puffed out. Maybe its the sugar! Yeah, thats right... <img src=
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Clayton
Yeah, its time to get out on the water again!
This thread has inspired me to go burn tires.
Lots of them.
Because, I can.
Lots of them.
Because, I can.
Just do it downwind of your house -- and hope the wind doesn't switch. <img src=
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Around my parts it'd be a community affair. I'd get the kids involved. They could bring their tricycle tires to burn. I'd sell hamburgers and hotdogs that were cooked using a charcoal grill.
The local church might work. Since we're all reborn christian bubbas, it'd be the best target-rich environment.
Maugan, burning tires might cause lower wind speeds in your area, based upon this report (however, it also makes it sound like pollution is actually cooling the earth rather than causing it to heat):
Stanford Report, Jan. 19, 2007, by Maria Jose Vinas
The winds that blow near the surface of the Earth have two beneficial effects: They provide a renewable source of clean energy and they evaporate water, helping rain clouds to build up. But aerosolized particles created from vehicle exhaust and other contaminants can accumulate in the atmosphere and reduce the speed of winds closer to the Earth's surface, which results in less wind power available for wind-turbine electricity and also in reduced precipitation, according to a study by Stanford and NASA researchers.
These aerosol particles are having an effect worldwide on the wind speeds over land; there's a slowing down of the wind, feeding back to the rainfall too,
says civil and environmental engineering Associate Professor Mark Z. Jacobson, co-author of the study with the late Yoram J. Kaufman from NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, who died in May 2006.
We're finding a reduction of rain, and that can lead to droughts and reduction of water supply.
Jacobson and Kaufman's study, based on NASA satellite data of aerosol accumulation, measurements of wind speeds over the South Coast Basin in California and in China, and computer model simulations over California as a whole and the South Coast Basin, was published online Dec. 27 in Geophysical Research Letters. The researchers used both the model and data to study the effects of aerosol particles on wind speed and rainfall.
Slower winds, less rain
Aerosol particles floating in the atmosphere absorb or scatter solar radiation, and prevent it from getting to the ground. This cools the Earth's surface and reduces daytime vertical convection that mixes the slower winds found near the ground with the faster winds at higher altitudes. The overall effect is a reduction in the speed of near-surface winds, which Jacobson has calculated to be up to 8 percent slower in California.
Clean and renewable, wind power made up 1.5 percent of the Golden State's energy portfolio in 2005, according to the California Energy Commission. But slower gusts may reduce wind's economic competitiveness compared to other energy sources, such as fossil fuels.
The more pollution, the greater the reduction of wind speed,
Jacobson says. Aerosol particles may be responsible for the slowing down of winds worldwide. Wind supplies about 1 percent of global electric power, according to Jacobson. Slow winds may hinder development of wind power in China, where it's a needed alternative to dirty coal-fired plants. Aerosols' reduction of the wind also may explain the reduction in the Asian seasonal monsoon and
disappearing winds
in China, observations found in other studies. Moreover, slack air currents may hurt energy efficiency in Europe, where countries like Denmark and Germany have made major wind-power investments.
Slower winds evaporate less water from oceans, rivers and lakes. Furthermore, the cooling of the ground provoked by the aerosol particles reduces the evaporation of soil water.
What's more, the accumulation of aerosol particles in the atmosphere makes clouds last longer without releasing rain. Here's why: Atmospheric water forms deposits on naturally occurring particles, like dust, to form clouds. But if there is pollution in the atmosphere, the water has to deposit on more particles. Spread thin, the water forms smaller droplets. Smaller droplets in turn take longer to coalesce and form raindrops. In fact, rain may not ever happen, because if the clouds last longer they can end up moving to drier air zones and evaporating.
From Wikipedia
sea level rise
Sea level rise is an increase in sea level. Multiple complex factors may influence such changes.
Sea level has risen around 130 metres (400 feet) since the peak of the last ice age about 18,000 years ago. Most of the rise occurred before 6,000 years ago. From 3,000 years ago to the start of the 19th century sea level was almost constant, rising at 0.1 to 0.2 mm/yr. Since 1900 the level has risen at 1 to 3 mm/yr;[1] since 1992 satellite altimetry from TOPEX/Poseidon indicates a rate of rise about 3 mm/yr.[2]
Sea level rise can be a product of global warming through two main processes: expansion of sea water as the oceans warm, and melting of ice over land. Global warming is predicted to cause significant rises in sea level over the course of the twenty-first century.
Maugan, burning tires might cause lower wind speeds in your area..
Taller masts and more sail area; we can compensate.
David
A-Cat, big cat
Jake,
Do yourself a favor and take Bonnie to the movies again, bullswan's buying.
Don't you love it when people volunteer you for stuff???
In this particular case, I don't mind a bit. Jake, for all the help you've given me with your writings in this forum, I'm GLAD to treat you and Bonnie to a new flick with an opposing point of view. IT's on me.
Glad you folks liked the link. I found it fascinating and illuminating. Sorry everyone didn't.
In reply to the C.S. Lewis quote (which I loved) I've got this from Will Rodgers.......
Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.
I'm done.
Greg
Global Warming = FAD <img src=
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Yes another reason why we _need_ global warming.. more wind..and to thwart the next ice age.
Have to agree with Meteorologist Bob on this one. However, having lived in Pittsburgh, and Seattle before and after the clean up, Our system does work. In Pittsburgh you could not see due to the polution from the Steel Mills and Coke ovens, probably similar to many parts of China. In Seattle, the polution in Lake Washington was eliminated by the Metro Water System, a model system in waste water treatment.
Caleb Tarleton
The Christian bubbas seem to be in an uproar about global warming too.
Global warming
true or false
didn't happen overnight and it won't be fixed overnight. With that said, it is in every ones best intrest to conserve resources and re-cycle when possible, tree hugger or not.
Gore's dumb butt movie has filled more eco nuts with hope. He said that if all the ice in just greenland were to melt it would make the oceans rise 20 feet. Go get an atlas, a piece of paper, and a caclulator. The ice would have to cover ALL, not 80% of Greenland, and have to be 40,000 feet thick to make this happen. Figure the volume of the ice, divide it out over the surface area of the oceans, thats what it would take.
So are you saying scientists can't even do basic math? I did the calculation and I didn't get 40,000 feet, I got a number that was in reasonable agreement with reality. Better try again.
Besides, haven't we been coming out of an ice age for the last 10,000 years. In the sixties they were concerned with global cooling. As far as polar bears and sea lions go, good. It will help the fish popultions. In nature if one specie is losing, another is winning. Besides if the temp goes up something drastic like ten degrees then it will be a balmy -40 in the middle of winter at the poles. I'm not sure if that will freeze water but I'm willing to go out on a limb. I don't think global warming is as effected by the human race as the eco nuts think. Didn't Mt St. Helens blast more crud into the atmosphere than humans could in a millenia? New Orleans is sinking, not being over taken by waves. Feeding, and supplying energy to you baby mongers is bigger concern. Stop breeding. It's not that we use too much as individuals, its that there is way too many of us. In 1850 there was like 6 cities on the planet with a population over a million, now how many is there? And yeah, my spelling sucks. I'm just a dumb gas guzzling pickup driving, construction worker. Oh and for you Europeans, stupid American.
.
Being skeptical myself, I too ran the numbers. 20' is right.
are you guys assuming that the shoreline is a vertical cliff? Meaning, you aren't integrating the surface area of the ocean growth over the shoreline grade?
How about you crank out your calculus books for that one... smarty.
So what then, it becomes 16 feet instead of 20...it's still a pretty big deal (given these predictions...probably not something we will see in our lifetime...but still dramatic).
Figure the surface area of the oceans at the current level. figure the volume of the added depth, (not including added area of the water going up a shore, its figuring a vertical rise this is rough math), divide the volume by the surface area of Greenland. I'll do it again and actually add some numbers to this when I get a chance. And there are other factors too. But the number I came up with is absurd. Scientist's can't do math? No, politicians will lie in your face because they have an agenda. One has to make the other look more evil than they are. You always have to think with an open mind. Question everything or else you'll end up like the rest of the cattle.
I am full of sh*t. I don't think I transfered a number into to the correct units. But I still get a bigger number than logical for the amount of ice needed in Greenland. Here's how I figured it using Oxford Atlas of the World, Tenth Edition, Published 2002 as my reference.
Area of Greenland is 838,999 Sq Miles
Water surface of earth is 57,000,000 square miles
V=a^2 X H Right?
20 feet = .0037878 miles
area of the oceans X Height of the added sea level
57,000,000 X .0037878 = 215,904.6 cubic miles.
Volume of added sea level divided by area of Greenland
215,904.6 / 838,999 = .2573359 (This should give a mean thickness of the ice required in Greenland to raise the oceans 20' in miles)
5280 X .2573359 = 1358.73 ft.
Refering to my atlas again:
Greenland is the world's largest island. Settlements are confined to the coast, because an ice sheet covers four-fiths of the land.
Four fiths of the land, so 80%, close enough. So the ice that is there would have to be 20% thicker than our mean thickness. So 1358.73 / .8 = 1698.41 ft. So all of Greenland's ice is this thick?
Thats alot of ice. I'm sure its a mile thick in places, but it looks like most of Greenland is inside the Arctic Circle. A few degrees just doesn't matter up there. This is the best that a self employed construction worker, high school drop out can figure. Sorry for incorrect number before but I think I forgot to change 20 feet into a fraction of a mile. Question everything. Whether it comes from the right or left. And yeah, I'm not figuring in the added area from the slope of the shorelines, the required ice would be much more. Plus this is figuring ice at a standard volume, not factoring in expansion when water freezes which would also increase the amount of ice required in Greenland to raise the ocean 20 feet. This also does not take into account that as the depth is increased around the surface of a sphere more volume is required to add depth because the bigger the sphere the more area, also requiring more ice to raise ocean levels a given amount. Figuring that out is well beyond my 10th grade education. Maybe my math is incorrect again, prove me wrong. Educate me. Tell me I'm just another dumb redneck, enjoy!
The suits will tell lies forever and skim whatever they can off the top.
The ologists will write books and go on Oprah.
Who cares about the numbers bro, this is like the car that has started to run off down the hill. Just stay out of its way and hope it dosen't hit you mother.
This decades Y2K. Remember that, when the computers were going to go mad and destoy everyones lives.
Sail now, right now, while you can.
That's the bitch, all my water is frozen. LOL <img src=
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i'll take a high school drop out nail bangers opinion over the entire scientific community any day. Did anyone watch the congrssional testimony on c-span today or were they to busy checking out penthouse forum looking for
data
.