Global warming

I said it once and I'll say it again...........

GLOBAL WARMING = FAD

Go sailing. Do something besides bang on a stupid keyboard. Go kiss the Weather Channel girl <img src=

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Mother Nature

doesn't care that you exist <img src=

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HA! <img src=

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typical example of a BS argument applied to confuse uneducated people :

Methane is a burnable gaz and as such will not be emitted by any significant quantities by internal combustion engines as, of course, those will BURN the gas before it gets to the exhaust.

Fossil fuels predominantly exhaust CO2 which, together with methane, is one of those greenhouse gases. In affect both cows and cars produce quantities of green house gases but only of different kinds.

With uneducatedness like this going around, any scientific discussion with the larger populace is useless. And any easy to understand

science

will get thrown out because the people who don't understand any more complex will quote some scientifics who says that it is

fast and loose

Nice situation to be in.

Wouter

An average, yes !

On antartica it is even several miles thick. During the last ice age the ice sheet on top of New York was an mile high.

1698 feet is less then 1/3rd of a mile, not a biggy in glacier terms.

No, it wouldn't. These planes are not that large compared to the total surface area of todays oceans. Alot of shoreline is pretty vertical when looking at 20 feet or less sea level rise.

This expansion ratio of ice is less then 10% and that is why a iceberg is only showing 10% of its mass above the surface. 10% on 1608 feet is only 160 feet which is peanuts when it comes to permanent icesheet. Again the icesheets on antartical can be several miles thick.

Radius of the earth is roughly 6300 km, 20 feet = 6 mtr and so the increase in surface area due to the spherical nature of the eath when sea level rises 20 feet is :

0.000000000000000086384 % (= 8.6384e-17 % for scientifically schooled people)

I would call this effect totally negligiable.

Here you are.

Wouter

I'm with you, Bob. FAD.

I watched Al Gore's movie and I read Michael Creighton's book (State of Fear, the other side of the debate) and what I got out of the movie was, it's already too late. If this is real, we are at least 20-30 years behind the curve in developing alternative fuels, and I see no real changes in how we live our lives (burning oil for electricity, transportation, heating, etc.) of the size and nature that would make a difference, being promoted or legislated.

The fact is that our politicians need lots of money to get elected. The fact is that the Oil companies have lots of money, and will only back any politician who will see things -their way-. Unless politicians pass laws that madate a change to the way we live, nothing will change. In America, we have the best Politicians money can buy.

You and I can

Go Green

but what are we, less than 1% of the world's population? So how are we going to fix it when we have to deal with the other 99% of the population, around the world? (I'm thinking of China, India, etc.)

So what I got out of Al's movie was, it's too late and Big Oil won't cut their own throats to change the way we live.

Do you think the Big Oil lobby is going to allow any politician to favor Wind or Solar energy, both of which would provide FREE Energy to the consumer, after the initial purchase of equipment? NO WAY! Follow the money. The money is in Oil.

hi i am not having a go at you in particular but you say we are only responsible for 1% of the worlds polution but the US is responsible for about 1/4 it, china and india just want the wealth we have but we need to lead the way.
As low carbon tecnologies exist we need to invest massively in them they will become more effichant and no one will want to build coal fired power stations or eventialy drive smelly petrol cars, at that stage maybe we will have developed effective carbon sinks and we can can stop this, the chinese know how bad this is as the desart is getting closer and closer to bejing so, let us show them the way on this

with you on this.

I live in the wops with my own water and sewage etc and it is great NOT paying those blood suckers EVERY month for what a little enginuity can provide for free.

My partner is Chinese. I have spent time in China with her well educated, very hard working young nieces and nephews. They have all of the latest gadgets and will be wealthy. It is too late to take up a leadership roll with them. They have no respect for Western leadership and look to outstrip the West not follow.

Intresting comments about China. I worked with a woman that was an expat in Japan. She said they're still fighting the war but they're using economic instead of fire power.

Boy did you put words in my mouth! Where exactly did I say

WE

were only

responsible

for 1% of Global Warming??

What I MEANT by WE, is onl the Catsailors reading this board. WE Are NOT EVEN 1% of the entire population of the free world, so any effecy you and I will have, vs. China and India, and yes, the rest of the USA and Europe, will be little to none. And my POINT is, unless WE elect politicians who see it as a real problem and have a plan to fix it, nothing will change. BUT the big money Oil Lobby is not going to let that happen.

What about that most of the ice is so far north though? 2 degrees can't effect much above/below a certain latitude when it 40 below all winter long, and a steamy 10 degrees in the summer.

The easiest way for all of this to come to an end is for some nut job to let loose a virus that kills off 99.99% of the population. No more pollution, (except rotting corpses all that methane again), no need for large agri-business to feed the planet. No more companies dumping toxic waste into rivers. No war for at least a few years. No more anything. How far back do you suppose that would take the population to. 10,000 years? Just wondering, would that be a adequate solution? or a bit too extreme? Once you get over the everyone dying thing it would do an effective job.

Didn't that cows emiting methane thing come from the UN?

Which virus do you prefer? The one in The Stand or the one in Cell? Stephen King has a wild imagination.

How about instead, we all start eating Soilent Green?

Singapore is a tiny island of no import compared to 1.4 billion people who have the most thriving economy on the planet. The Chinese see it as their time. And it is.
I saw hard working, arrogant people, full of desire to prove themselves as the best. It is a heady mix of money, emotion and self belief. The World thinks it is understanding China and its rise but the jaws will drop when the Olympics are braodcast. Then the West will get some idea of the energy, wealth and ego that is the new China. China still has a billion people desperate to step into wealth who will work 24/7.
I believe China will track the growth of Japan. Remember them, they once had more cash than the rest of us combined. China will make them look like also rans.
My partner speaks Chinese and her family are big in politics and that is what I call an insurance policy.

BTW NZ is getting a new 14 foot tri design made there for export to the rest of the World. F18s etc will follow the same path. Chinese made cats.....what's the bet?

Re cows and methane! The government here tried to start up a fart tax! We just could not take it seriously and we try to be green.
Too many people is correct.
What about ballots for children. The rich could buy the ballot winners baby tokens and the poor who won could get ahead.

We would have to stop the more people make more money idea though.
We could have little plastic children for the losers.

I haven't seen Cell, but I'm a big fan of The Stand. Its good to watch when you're sick being its 6-7 hrs long. And yes I've also read the book.

Cell hasn't made it to the big or little screen yet. It'll make you think twice about answering a cell phone.

sorry to put words in timbos mouth its just how i read it, but as for china my point was they know about this, they are very worried about it and investing heavely in green tecnologies, it is just we are in a position to do somthing about this and the chinise would be happy to follow when it is economicaly better for them than burning their dirty brown coal, we don't have to perswade them this is happening they know whats happening, its all down to the economics once low carbon tecnologies are cheeper than coal oil and gas every country will do it

10.000 years ago Neatherthal man walked along the outskirts of the glaciers of the last ice-age. One of which covered new-york and Chicago all year around and was a mile hight. The whole of Canada was covered by a massive icesheet. I think he said much the same thing as you do right now.

How much difference can 1 or 2 degrees make ?

Wouter

Wouter just indirectly called me a neanderthal. Grow some balls.

I'm done with this thread. Wouter is way smarter, educated, better looking than I could hope to be.

The green party in NZ suggested taxing waste instead of production. I am still confused why that is a bad idea. Still provides gov. funds and still gives people something to evade..but it does less damage.

It is a bad idea because people can find all sorts of creative ways to get rid of their trash and garbage -- bury it, burn it, chuck it into the jungle across the street.....

But, illegal dumping is already. . .illegal. Maybe some sort of recycling deposit, like we have for glass bottles and aluminum cans.

How 'bout 2 cents apiece for old cigarette filters!?

Yeah, right. That only matters if they catch you. And can they keep you from burying cans in your back yard? And can they keep you from burning your garbage on your grill? Or flushing it down your toilet? Or taking it to work with you and putting it in your company dumpster?

It's a lot harder to track waste than production. For instance, if you are actually putting all your waste out in cans by the road like you are supposed to, the people who pick up the trash would have to weigh everybody's trash every pickup and keep a record of it, so they would know what to tax you. Somehow, I don't think that is ever going to happen. <img src=

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You are right Mary. Since we've started charging fees for trash at New England dumps, litter, and illegal dumping have increased dramatically. Gooseberry Island where I sail, is part of a state

reservation

. The state puts out a large trash can to help combat the litter, but some locals bring their trash from home and routinely fill the barrel. I am amazed by the quantity of litter, and that it seems most people in our society think nothing of it. I used to pick up what I saw, but now there is just too much. It could be a full time job at that small beach alone! The streets and highways up here are loaded with trash, most of it plastic. Less and less of the litter is actually recycled. What is collected/picked up, is usually burned up here. I wonder what the effects of all that unnatural stuff in our air is going to do to future generations. Then there is the threat to wildlife. Plastics left outside are the gift that keeps on killing, much like lost lobster pots, balloons, ribbons, fishing line, plastic bags, and things like Yoplait Yogurt containers kill huge numbers of wildlife every year. The trash/litter is so bad at Horseneck Beach, that they use machines to rake the beach, and then build dunes of trash and sand. They don't look or smell nice, but so far they can't process the trash/litter in any more responsible way. There is a strange thing going on in our society today. I see it at every level.I call it

The King's New Clothes Syndrome

. It is people failing to see what is right in front of them, and refusing to take responsibility for it. I work for Marriott, one of the best hotel companies in the world. I routinely see management ignoring, or refusing to recognize things that end up costing the company tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know what can be done. I think perhaps people really need to suffer in order to wake up. <img src=

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In Ireland, we have 2 bins and even 3 in some areas. One for refuse which cannot be recycled, the others are for recyclable materials. There are charges for refuse collection in all areas. In some areas (depends on local councils) the refuse bin is WEIGHED and the householder is billed accordingly. Most of us recycle plastic, paper, aluminium and tin cans, and glass. Also there is a recycling charge on electrical goods and no charge for dumping same at local facility. Human nature being what it is, I have seen people dumping refuse in bins at a beach where I holiday.

We had the same problem on Maui. They finally got smart and made dumping free. Now all we have to figure out is how to keep da brahs from dumping their Maui cruzzahs along the roads.

What are

brahs

and

cruzzahs

?

I was talking business waste guys. If IRD had to track it they would. Germany does it and successfully.
Normal house hold rubbish should be done for "free' as the rates should give something back, right? And remember. if the businesses were taxed on rubbish they would not deliver so much to you with what you purchase. : ) everyone wins.
Aren't I just the Pollyanna?

Warbird,
Nobody will ever accuse you of being a pollyanna. <img src=

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I have lived in a lot of different areas of this country and trash removal is never free. There are just different ways to pay for it.

In the Keys, the garbage and trash pick up is an addendum on your property tax bill. If you only live at your house in the Keys for three or four months out of the year, you still pay for trash pickup 12 months a year. It's a really good deal for the trash-removal company.

When we lived at Catawba in Ohio, seasonal residents could buy blue bags at the grocery store. You paid X amount for each blue bag, and you put those blue bags out at your curb and they got picked up.

At Put-in-Bay (island in Lake Erie), they used to have the greatest free recycling system ever -- sort of a little plateau you drove up on with your

stuff.

Radiating out from the plateau were big dumpsters labeled paper, tin cans, aluminum, plastic, clear glass, brown glass, green glass. It made everybody on the island feel good about having a place to take their stuff to recycle it. I used to have at least 10 different trash cans in my garage, all labeled with the appropriate thing for the recycling hill.

And then it got eliminated, so now we have NO recycling whatsoever and just throw everything in together in our trash. It bothers me a lot. And I don't know where all the stuff goes after it leaves the island on the ferry.

Anyway, at Put-in-Bay we have a choice of (at this point) two trash pickup companies, and you have to contract with them yourself.

In many parts of the country you are dealing with private pickup contractors, it can get really

dirty

when they are competing against each other for your garbage. <img src=

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There have always been rumors, of course, that the mafia is involved in the trash removal business.

Thanks for seeing through the Pollyanna thing Mary because it is not easy being Doctor Evil.
Seems to be no argument that we make a lot of rubbish.....so......maybe if we made less........??