great 2nd amendment video

No Rolf, I don't think you're an butt. Infact if there was something you came to me with needing assistance that I could help with, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do all I could. In the end, we have a common passion that brought us to this list, and that is sailing. That passion bonds ALL of us in a way that few other passions or lifestyles do. Your viewpoint on this differs from mine, so what. If I thought everyone that had different ideas from me were wrong, I'd be an butt. It's these differences that make the world an interesting place to live. Sometimes our written words are taken differently than when they are spoken. No ill feelings comming from me and I'm sorry if they initially came accross that way. I'm going to clean my guns now.

what? that didn't make sense. you also didn't list my option. If I can see them coming early enough, I try to just beat them to the punch before they ask for something. I ask

hey man, do you have a dollar I can borrow

. I've done this three times...two of those, I got a cross-ways stare while their mental gears grind and then they just turned and walked away. The other guy hung around to tell me his

life story

. I didn't get shot once!

Ditto from me Rolf. (except for the cleaning my guns part)

Saw a bumpersticker today that said,

Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths

Mr. Pot, I'm pleased to introduce Mr. Kettle.

Thanks for the kind words, but I am not worked up at all. I am Mr. Cool on this topic as I dont have any investment to protect. Just been replying in kind to the arguments presented. It is quite possible that I messed up some linguistic nuiance or even goofed up sine I came across as worked up.
As to why I entered the discussion and why I care: I think you would be better off with a different weapons culture. I also find many of the arguments for keeping status quo.. challenging?
Without discussions like this, there will never be change and that goes both ways. If the topic was something else where those present had something to risk (dont misunderstand), I would not have replied like I have done here.

As somebody said earlier, it is your country. I just hope that you make the best you can out of what you have got.
This sounds like a good opportunity to end my part of the thread. <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" />

As a matter of trivia, Japan DID mount an offensive on American soil besides Hawaii and DID occupy American soil - albeit for a very short time (1942?). The aleutian islands off Alaska were invaded. It was to be a staging ground for an enhanced ground war in that theater.

Not that it's worth anything, but my cursory observations in criminal tactics seems to indicate that very few are:
(1) fully competent in the operation of firearms
(2) versed in tactical reloading
(3) any good at aiming for stationary OR moving targets.

Spray and pray

seems to be the mentality. To that I thank the heavens and movies, as it increases the odds of survival if you're ever confronted with such a disaster.

I would suggest that your odds of surviving a criminal attack with a firearm increase logarithmically (or at least geometrically) with the distance between you and the bad guy.

I would also suggest that if you are able to survive the first volley, you'd probably have upwards of 15 seconds to evacuate while the dork tries to reload.

I agree with Rolf - if you have no other choice but to discharge your weapon, the dozier pattern is most effective at incapacitation (Two to the center of mass and one to the head). This should preferably be accomplished while moving to a cover position.

I have no idea why I am even discussing this... I am not an expert, nor am I one who feels an overwhelming probability that I will be attacked (despite my earlier comment regarding my neighbor's armed robbery experience)...

this is a great example of many of the gun control issues. An 8 year old was given an UZI at a gun show by experts, he lost control of the recoil, and shot himself in the head - dead. I have a strong feeling that this falls distinctly into an

only in America

category.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6393527&page=1

Sorry but, I think that goes in the

no matter what country you are from you don't hand a 8 year old an uzi

category. It is not the weapon, it is the idiot, handing it to someone who has had zero training in it's safe use. To think that it could only happen in america is short-sighted. I agree that too many kids are getting killed by other kids with no respect for anything, but come on that's a tragic story that has little reflection on US Law.

Flame away.

oh come on Jake....
surely you see that an uzi is clearly indicated for any self respecting parent with small children that only desires to protect his family!
Or what about well meaning sportsmen? How often do you really think they should have to pull a trigger to shoot a deer?
OH WAIT!
how are you supposed to fulfill your right to overthrow the government without such a basic weapon?

I like handguns and would like to own one... however I just can't get over the impracticality and danger when you have small kids. If you lock one up well enough so your kid doesn't find it and shoot himself or a friend with it then it is worthless for

home defense

anyway.
when I was in grade school I had a friend whose dad collected guns. He had probably 60 guns (handguns mostly) hanging on his wall in the basement. His kid would routinely take one off the wall and point it at some friends and pull the trigger. Thankfully the dad was at least smart enough to make sure the guns weren't loaded... but he did leave ammo laying all over the place.

i hear his father was a Dr. at the local accident and emergency ward...

and that the whole point of going to this

gunshow

was that ANYONE would be able to fire completely automatic under competent instruction

so which idiot is responsible

the 8yo on the trigger?
the father who let him do it?
the guy in charge of the firing range?
the organisers of the event?
the local authorities for not specifying little kids shouldn't be playing with automatic fire?

sounds like it was

a tragic accident and nobody was to blame

yeah right

Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. the handgun and the key to the trigger lock on my shotgun are in a safe with a 10 digit combination because I have kids. I don't plan on shooting anyone. But I do enjoy target shooting and believe I have the right to do so. I just don't think it is the gun laws that are the culprit in most cases. More often than not kids are being killed by other kids, with handguns not uzis. We need tighter gang laws, juvenile justice laws, and proper education and better parenting. Do you really think that changing gun laws will effect the gang mentality? Or the violence committed by kids who think it is cool to be a thug? I don't need an autoamtic weapon so don't put me in that category. It is a total lack of responsibilty that puts weapons like those in the hands of kids. I just dont think gun laws are the complete answer, we need to change the mentality of the younger generation. I have noticed a general lack of respect in young people. I blame Jacka**, Youtube, and some pretty violent games that desensitze and glorify this gangsta mentality. I was disrespectful when I was younger but when I got in fights in High school no body whipped out a pistol, and I learnd some good lessons by picking my dumb a** off the ground a couple of times. Problem is these kids aren't willing to lose anymore.

The problem is that some of the militia members following this thread would say that as soon as they ban automatic weapons completely then the government will be at their door demanding to confiscate their BB guns too. This is not an all or none issue. They shouldn't sell assault weapons for the same reason they should sell tanks. yes, I am aware that there may be only a small difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle but a pistol grip and 30 rd mag would qualify as an assault weapon in my book.
IMO handguns are fine, obviously rifles (hunting/etc) are fine.

I agree with what you are saying and if I owned a handgun then I would lock it up like you do. My wife certainly wouldn't go for a gun in the house and I don't really have the ammo (HAH!) to argue against that.

I'm afraid that my take on it is

Only in America

would there be a gun show, where an 8 year old kid would be handed a loaded usi. The reason so many people are getting killed by guns, is that there are so many guns freely available out there.
Take those '98 statistics, how many of those 11,802 homicides would have happened if there wasn't a gun to hand. How many of the 17,432 suicides - if there wasn't a gun to hand, maybe they would have changed their minds before they could find the poison - or maybe they would have been too drunk to make their way up on to the roof. Probably all of the 866 accidental deaths, would still be alive. One last point, how many of the homicides were committed by people who had a gun

for protection

under their bed, or in their purse and only used it to save themselves or their families ? - a very small percent.

Scoooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

You said it before Jake, Bad parenting. Remember?

It takes alot of money, a vault, and a whole mess of paperwork to get a Class 1 license. Its about $600 a year to maintain, and you give up alot of rights having one. Its a royal pain in the butt.

Here's a video of right way to teach kids about guns. Since there are so many guns around, it's a good idea to teach kids the right way to handle them in case they encounter one along the line somewhere.

When I was 5, I remember my dad holding the 20 GA to my shoulder and we fired a few rounds at an old tea kettle. Seeing the the destruction of the tea pot and feeling the recoil gave me instant respect for guns.

With all of the shoot-em-up video games out there, kids don't realize the real destruction guns can cause. Kids need to realize that they're not toys.

No man-trip UZI involved in the video below. Condolences to that family.

The right way

J

I didn't mean to say we needed more laws. However, it is usually the end result when a society demonstrates the lack of ability to check itself. We need better control and responsibility over our guns - which you have clearly exercised and demonstrated the ability to do so. As you know, I don't own any guns but I have really enjoyed firing your handgun on occasion.

I DO, however, standby the statement that it would be far fetched to find in any other foreign country A) a gun show where

everyone gets to fire an assault weapon

B) a father who wishes for his 8 year old to fire an Uzi and C) a trainer who is willing to put a very violent and extremely powerful Uzi in the hands of an 8 year old. Having had a great opportunity to spend 6 years traveling to various corners of the world I can honestly say that it will be difficult to find a country in which these three bad decisions and circumstances could ever align and result in the death of an 8 year old other than right here.

The whole gun control problem is, in my opinion, not so much about a lack of laws as it is about our culture and personal responsibility as a nation. I also didn't intend to use the phrase

gun control

to mean the same thing as

firearm restrictive legislation

but more in the sense of our own personal responsibility to control our guns and who uses them.

LOL!

I am taking names and date stamps on these posts and turning them into your employers! <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Jake,
You've guzzled of the media Kool-aid. I think you can find many countries in the world where you would get your list.
I really wonder why you would describe an inanimate object as

very violent and extremely powerful

. Would you describe your car as

very violent and extremely powerful

or your boat

very violent and extremely powerful

they both have the same potential. You can get the most damaging ammo in a 100 round clip, load an Uzi, even leave the safety OFF, and set it on a table and watch it. It won't move ,it won't fire , it won't do anything. Therefore it is not violent.The uzi, by the way, is only 9mm ,which is a far cry from powerful.
There is even a website that has had a camera on an AR-15 since Clinton was in office, and it hasn't made a move. For the extremely intelligent gnome that I know you are, you don't make much sense on this. You have taken the media's spew and absorbed and repeat it.
For probably the only time in this thread the term assault weapon was used properly in describing the FULL AUTO uzi.
I know ,Wiki sucks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
Take note of the sentence that begins with

Legislators and political lobbyists

I tend to believe more in military definitions of weapons than beauraucratic definitions.

Tawd

I know it's a cliché

guns don't kill people, people kill people

by in a way it is true. Honestly I think it is our

new

society and our complete refusal to be responsible for our own actions that is to blame. Nobody wants to be accountable. Not the show organizers, the father, or the trainer. I would hope than at least one of them would have thought

this might be a bad idea

.

The refusal of our young people to accept that they have to be responsible for themselves creates an environment where violence can be justified by anything. That dynamic is to blame for more than a few of our countries issues lately. IMHO.

I dug this out of my archives of emails. I feel somehow it is appropiate for this thread. Sorry for the long link name but I couldn't find a way to upload a file to this site.

When the wife doesn't listen

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

My employer's a jerk. I was already thinking about quitting anyway. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

J

How can you be so blinkered ? If you leave the gun lying around for long enough, it is likely that someone will come along and kill someone with it.
You need your car to get around - it is a modern day necessity. Most people do not need to have a gun - it is a macho big boy's toy. And if you have one in your posession, it is possible that it will kill someone someday.

Borat Discovers What It Takes To Be A Real Man

Can u buy antitank gun for self defence?
Yes, in texas.

LOL

I also did some more research and you guys are right, guns dont kill people.
Its actually the bullit that does the actual kill, sorry bout that.

You can drop the

Gun Control

from the first sentence and you've hit the nail on the head, Jake.

We are ALL looking for someone to blame. From the girls who took topless photos of themselves and are suing the school dept because the photos were distributed (BY THE BOYS THE GIRLS SENT THE PHOTOS TO!) to the dead employee's family who is suing Walmart, to this STUPID, STUPID father who let his son handle and fire an UZI without thinking

what could go wrong?

.

You can't legislate safety. The world is a place that you can get hurt in. Outlaw all guns, cars, kitchen knives, anything with a sharp point, and still someone will get killed. Sh!t happens.
How many stories have we discussed about a person getting trapped under a turtled boat? N-O-B-O-D-Y cried for the outlawing of catamarans or sheets. You try to make something as safe as possible but at some point you have to take the risk and go for it. Stop looking for whom to blame. Jake is right. It's becoming our culture that nothing is the individuals (or the parents/guardians) responsibility.

Answer me this;

is this 8 year killing himself in this circumstance wrong?

You guys are so entrenched that you act like it's perfectly acceptable! Until the avid gun supporters can admit that an 8 year old dying from a poorly handled gun at a public gun show is a problem, we can never fix it unless some legislator somewhere slaps a new law in place. By the gun organizations not recognizing the problem and taking responsibility by actively trying to find a solution - the legislators are left with no other choice!

What if the kid lost control and sprayed all the people behind him with (tiny little 9mm) bullets? Would you admit that there is a problem there then?

2) find me a gunshow somewhere else in the world where everone gets to fire an automatic weapon. I work with people around the world. I dine with people from around the world. I travel with people around the world. It's not the media. I have direct experience that it is only in America (and perhaps a few extremely violent 3rd world countries) that treat guns so carelessly and with so little respect. I'm not talking about laws and I'm not professing more laws - I'm talking about our culture. Our international contingency on this forum will, most certainly, back me up on this one. I've dined in a mall in Israel while 17 year old soldiers inspect our table's activity with assault rifles in their hands. I've walked four miles in Palestine on foot. I've traveled across Saudi Arabia and been scoured through their customs/immigration. I've spent a lot of time in Germany, Italy, Malaysia, Sweden, Spain, France, the UK, and Japan. I'm not overly influenced by the American media.

My car has nothing to do with this. It was not invented to kill.

An Uzi IS A VIOLENT WEAPON! Holy cow are you guys disconnected. It takes a lot of strength to handle one because it's firing is very rapid and violent. The fact the the bullets are only 9mm is easily offset by the rate at which they come out of the barrel - 10 of those

tiny

little bullets come out of that barrel in one second.

I repeat again, I am not for more gun control laws. I don't like big brother putting more controls in place anymore than any of you. HOWEVER, I am for people to take the responsibility to recognize that there is a problem from a humanitarian perspective and doing something to deal with it BEFORE the legislators feel like they need to put a law in place.

I figured this out.

You guys feel that it's OK for this 8 year old to die because it's acceptable that the people involved were simply irresponsible and it won't affect you because you're better than that.

I feel that we share a humanitarian obligation to try and prevent a needless death and that such an event could potentially affect me or someone I know.

I guess if we can agree on the dichotomy of these two positions then we can quit here (and I can get back to my end-of-year work).