Grow Youth Sailing..... Try Again

Ok...since you apparently can't accept a counter point without making personal attacks...it's back to

You are ignoring this user

for you.

No Jake,

It is you who made a stupid point.

Life is a dangerous concept. No matter how hard we try it always ends in death.

Your child can kill himself by falling off the swing in your garden if he doesn't hold on tight to the ropes. Still we allow our children to enjoy this toy. And any kid can drive his bicyle into that nice white picketted garden fence and impale himself. If this the fault of the bicycle or even the fence ?

Nothing is idiot proof.

And I'm not advocating putting 4 and 5 year olds on the landyachts. But 10 year olds an onwards seem to do pretty well. After 3000 blokart sold they have quite alot of experience in having kids drive. No landyacht was ever sold in these numbers.

Natural reflex of any person (including) kids is to steer away and let go of the sheet when in danger of colliding with something. This is in fact a good way to stop the landyacht. Making a (involuntary) 360 spin will kill your speed in a very short distance. By the time you hit the object the speed difference is surprisingly small. Yes, you get shaken about but nothing serious happens.

It is not like doing 35 mph in a car and hit a wall or something.

Additionally it is not difficult to set a course where craft going in opposite directions don't meet eachother. When a landyacht sails very fast on a downwind leg then he also sails very very deep. Pretty much you are going straight to the bottom mark.

Again it may appear very dangerous but the blokarts (not the larger class 5 and class 3 yachts or iceyachts) aren't really.

Having said this, if somebody decided to sheet in tight point straight at a solid wall and then take a good 50 meters to pick up speed and not steer away or sheet out then yes, it will hurt alot.

But then again you don't need a landyacht to do this. Just start running (scating or moutain biking) towards that wall, head first, and only stop when you hear the ambulance.

But I have never seen a kid do this. It's the adults who try to make that high speed rounding at the latest possible moment but never the kids.

Wouter

I'd bet if the only thing we'd let our three sons do was sail and drive blocarts there would have been less trips to the doctor.

#1 son played organized soccer (K-5), basketball (2-8), baseball (3-7) and diving (3-11).

At 16 had stitches from a

face plant

while skiing with the church group (he thought he was James Bond). At 17 had surgery due to hitting the diving board (broke the bone that supports the eyeball)

#2 son (the one with the REAL athletic ability; takes after mom)played organized soccer (K-8), basketball (3-6) and baseball (2-6).

At 15 broke his collar bone while snowboarding with the church group. Age 13 to 17, no less than 6 trips to the emergency room due to skateboarding injuries including dislocated hip.

#3 son played organized soccer (K-8), baseball (2-8) and football (3-9).

At 14 cracked two ribs during his first touchdown.

I did not check with Mom before writing this. I'll bet she could come up with a least 15 additional instances (in a heartbeat) when her poor little babies got hurt (that she would consider major).

I coached spring, fall and indoor soccer for eight years, and basketball for two. Paramedics never showed up at our games, but the mothers that were nurses had been called upon several times. Paramedics did show up at several football games. The collisions between two kids running full speed, especially when landing on concrete covered with carpet, is way scarier than anything I've seen in these videos.

My parents will never know some of the things I did as a kid. <img src=

alt=

/>

What? <img src=

alt=

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That has the same feeling of finally getting the squelch set high enough on a VHF radio.

I used to do full contact martial arts in my teens between 13 and 21 (several of them).

Never again did I have anything like those injuries. Looking back now I wonder why I even did it.

Luckily I stopped before I knocked my finger joints to shreds. I wasn't so lucky with my toes though.

Wouter

Jake,
The Blo-karting looks like LOTS of FUN, and to me it does not seem particularly dangerous. I would love to try it myself. <img src=

alt=

/>

Wow Jake, that's cool. I had never looked at that feature until you compared it to the squelch.

Wouter,

choose a martial art with reasonable gloves and allowing low kicks. Very few injuries then, even fever if it is 'allowed' to take your opponent down and work on the ground. Kickboxing is murder on your toes, and Kyokushin karate is really bad for your knucles when you score big time by hitting your opponents elbow <img src=

alt=

/>
In my opinion and experience, martial arts is very safe, even full contact knock down style ones, if there is a refere to stop things when there is a mismatch or a coach with the fighters best interest to throw in the towel.. Those 'cage' events are ugly tough!

I think the blocart and landyachts look cool! With a helmet and a few rules of the road, it should be safe enough. Much safer than the average bicycle at least. If you hit something at speed, you will hit it with your legs first, not your head as with skiing/snowboarding/skateboarding/cycling. I would have loved to try one when I was younger, or even now. Too bad our parking lots are riddled with steel lightpoles and are rather small to boot. The upside is that on days with no wind, the black tarmac are heated by the sun and create their own thermals.

How small are your parking lots.

I test sailed the Stigcher landyacht (about the same as the blokart) on a 100x50 meter (rather unevenly paved) parking lot.

I was really surprised at how well the kart handled the bumps and depressions. I expected to be all over the place but I wasn't.

A few lightpoles aren't a problem. It they are there ever 20 meters or less then it becomes annoying. Where I am we usually have a few on the side or 3 in the middle. Just set your course around them and you are fine.

You are right with respect to variations of martial arts you describe although a nice shapr kick to the upper leg muscle doesn't feel like it is very good for the muscle itself.

Still I did Judo along it for a long time and quite a few of my permanent injuries are from that sport. I have what is called

Judo toes

.

Do you have a rather flat dirt field nearby or a football pitch. That will all work although wet grass is very slippery.

Do you have an old windsurfer rig in your shed. If so then homebuilding the car to go with it is not particulary difficult at all.

Wouter

Mary,

The blokarts have become very popular over the last 3 to 4 years and so in some places a rather healthy secondhand market is starting to pop up.

Maybe you should look around on one of those Ebay sites and see if there is one on offer for a nice price.

You never know. If you don't buy it too dear then you can always sell it onwards for the same later if it isn't your thing. Just make sure that you have an area nearby that will allow you to use the thing.

Wouter

Registration for the US SAILING Youth Multihull Champ is now online at http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/

Parking lots in most suburban areas these days are cluttered with little islands of trees, enclosed by concrete curbs -- apparently to appease the environmentalists. A Blokart course would look kind of like a Supercross course.

The best parking lots are the ones surrounding the major automobile manufacturers. Those lots are huge and open, on the days when nobody is working.

I wonder if there is any law against using a sail-powered vehicle on the main highway down here in the Keys. There's very little traffic on Sunday mornings. And the people who ARE out that early would probably think they were hallucinating if they saw sails going down the road. <img src=

alt=

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But it would be fun to be the first ones to do it -- before they pass a law against it. <img src=

alt=

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Another approach, where no one gets hurt, but everyone has fun. See www.sailsandpoint.org and click on Landsailer.

Caleb

Caleb,
Now THAT is scary to me -- that kids would rather do the remote-control thing than the REAL thing. That's only a step up from video games.

Does that kind of project lead kids to actually get involved in sailing themselves?

Mary, not really sure how many kids we have brought into our sailing program with the Landsailing. It was started by a local Jr. High Instuctor that was looking for a place to run his program. Since it is an afterschool event, and runs all year long it looked like a good match. We do have space in the parking area for them to run their landsailers. Since it was the tarmac, runway, for the Navy seaplanes, it is fairly flat, and open. Also the City of Seattle liked the program, since it is another open, non exclusive use of the North Shore Facilities of Magnuson Park.

Caleb

Here some more vids of how it is done in other area's

This one shows a US rider doing well in the New Zealand open championship. It looks like they are running this race on a go-kart track or something like a inline skates track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxZ5cP545Tk

Towards the end you'll see some close racing between 5 blokarts.

Following the link at the end of the clip brings you here :

http://www.classactionracing.com/

And it looks like a piece of US seashore promenade that has been converted into a blokart track.

Here more of same NZ event :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWoth4vbQy0

In the UK I hear they often use abandonned WW2 airstrips. Lots of those around there.

Here in NL we have plenty of beaches. I never knew blokarting has gotten so big here in NL, in this video there most be about 50 landyachts on a single start :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BvEE3TkDhY

Mary if there are relatively large spaces between the little green islands then they may not be to much of an obstacle hell you can use them as markers.

In other area's they just ask the local county to use a piece of backroad (that is sufficiently wide).

Here some USA desert karting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnUB9ZeTpaM&mode=related&search=

Wouter

Wouter, this is a cart my daughter built in my shop when she was 16. She designed and did all the cutting. All joints are match fitted, ground and tappered. The only thing she had done was the welding. It was a contest she entered and all the materials were donated. It is very fast and fun. The main reason I am posting this is that the wheels are not strong enough to handle the side loads. Do you have any suggestions as to source and type. Here in Macon, Ga and surrounding area there are no others.

Thanks,

Carl
Saylor Specialties
www.saylorspecialties.com

My first quick reply.

The front wheel looks like it doesn't have that many spokes. Try to find a wheel of a kids mountainbike or BMX bike.

Personally I prefer star wheels over spoked wheels as shown in this picture.

star wheels

For the side wheels don't use bicycle wheels as these will fold. I know the wheel your daughter used on the sides. I use wheel barrels wheels very similar to these that are on offer secondhand here in NL :

Wheel barrel wheels

You'll have to make new axles for them but that should not be to big a problem.

But there is also a different kind of wheel barrel wheel that just has two ball baring bearings pressed into them and a 20 mm axle opening. These costed my 10 years ago something like 20 Euro's per wheel including shipping them to me. It will be alot easier making axle for these. Maybe I can look up the type over the next couple of days.

Ball barings are pretty much required for these landyachts. Gliding barings will just burn out.

Also, did you daughter place the side wheels under an angle with the vertical. If she didn't then this can also lead to wheel failure. I can measure the angle used on my karts if you want too.

Otherwise just getting a pair of Blokart wheels will be a good path to take. They are designed for this use afterall and there are a few blokart dealors in the USA.

Wouter

Hey guys my nine year old daughter that crews on the Stingray for me wants to talk to other young sailors do you know a good youth forum for her to look at?

Have you looked at racing go-cart wheels? They handle quite a bit of side loading but are not cheap. About $50-100 each.

We have a youth forum here, but it is not very active. Click on

Main Index

at the top of this page, and it will take you to all the other forums. Scroll down to find the youth forum.

Maybe your daughter can get some kids talking on it. <img src=

alt=

/>

Wouter, thanks for the web sites. I wish I could read them. My daughter did not build in any angle into the rear tires. I do not remember any info about needing it in the information she got from the web. If you could measure it on yours, I am sure I could build it into the axles. I have come to take ownership of the land sailor as my daughter is sailing for the University of South Florida (Saint Pete). The wheels that are on the rear now have bearings, but the metal structure is to flimsy to handle the loads and now wooble. I considered the plastic wheels for the front but we thought that the spoked wheels would be stronger (wrong again). Anyway thanks for the help,

Carl
Saylor Specialties
www.saylorspecialties.com

My stigcher landyacht (above picture) has 7 degrees inward angle on the rearwheels. I can lift one side up by 200 mm before the leeward wheel becomes perfectly vertical. I think this to be quite small and I figure you can easily go up to 10 degrees.

My other landyacht, class 5, has more angle to the rearwheel. See picture below. This is about 11 degrees.

I hope this helps.

Wouter

Wouter,
Thanks so much. now to find the wheels and have some fun again.

Carl

Carl ,
There is a section on wheels and tire selection on the ice flyer web site.

Ice Flyer wheels and tyre selection

even gives part numbers.

As I've not been following this closely this may or may
not be of use.

Regards,
Phill

Getting back to

yoots

sailing, the lightning class has done something that I think could help. It would have certainly helped me get into the game earlier than I did.

http://www.lightningclass.org/Boat_Grant/PressRelease.htm

Sirocco Sprint
www.windline.net

Well, I have solved my personal problem of getting my four grandchildren sailing. I found a Snark for $50 at a flea market. It is interesting how many cat sailors I know who have told me that they first learned to sail on a Snark.

You can flame me all you want about not starting them on a catamaran, but I think it is more important to just get them sailing. And a flea-market Snark is all I can afford --and all they can carry, since it weighs only 50 pounds.

Way to go, Mary! My first boat was a Sea Snark, too. I was 16 years old and wanted to get on the water in some fashion, and I happened upon a Snark for sale in the local paper. It was ugly--it had a ragged out

Kool

cigarrette sail (remember that promo?), and someone had done a pretty poor job of trying to glass over the styrofoam hull. But it floated (like a bathtub!), was cheap ($75), and most importantly, I could throw it on top of my car and get it on the water with just a few minutes of setup. I can honestly say that some of my best sailing memories (and stories!) are from times in that boat...

Which underlines two thoughts: first, that some people DO transition from monohulls to cats, and second, that low $$ and quick setup are essential to get most youth on the water.

Had some fun with kids in the last few weeks
I did the Goolwa to Milang with my 9yo and 11yo daughters on the wire me hiking, had their first pitchpole put a hole in the jib and the main, broke tiller extention and sail battens once they got over the shock they loved it and got back out once we were off again.
I went up near Morgan on a big lagoon off the Murray river with the same kids, Brett from Glasscraft was there and let us try his new

Bic Open

its only about 8ft long with a windsurfer sail and open transom. My 9yo hopped on and had no trouble righting it when she went over. My 11yo didnt go over. I went on it even though its maximum crew weight is 90kg at 105kg I had a lot of balance issues but what a hoot in 25 knotts it was indistructible. If you get a chance check one out because my daughters said it had

bling

and it was exciting they desperately want one.
regards