One of
3 new catamarans by Hobie Cat Europe for 2009
.
The new F18, as previously announced, all carbon FX One
Carbone FX
, and this one...interesting
And the Carbone FX: http:/
Wonder what the weight will be.
The Pearl, another Hobie product to scratch one head over.
How is this boat different from say the Hobie Pacific or Hobie Tiger ?
Wonder what the weight will be.
Pray to God that it is less then 110 kg or else they'll look like right fools next to an all glass/vinylester/aluminium F16 for 2/3 of the cost.
Wouter
whew...that's a weird rendering.
Pearl isn't exactly a very aggressive sounding name to follow Tiger.
a new F18 project, to exist along side the current Hobie Tiger?? It will either die or else split the Tiger class.. Interesting One Design class going on there...
I hope that rendering is nothing like the real thing.
And then there is this:
�� Dacron main sail on boom with reaf points
�� Dacron roller jib
�� Roller genaker
That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The rendering looks very poor. I almost wonder if the Hobie site got hacked and put this up. Just doesn't make sense.
Mike Hill
Wow, don't I look like an idiot. Talk about betting on the wrong horse. The carbon FXone probably cost's another $7k over the one now, if not more.
I've got a 20 year old NACRA that looks just like that boat.
Pray to God that it is less then 110 kg or else they'll look like right fools next to an all glass/vinylester/aluminium F16 for 2/3 of the cost.
Wouter
How could it not? The other bit on the HCE website said carbon beams, mast and hulls. That's alot of room to loose weight.
Another note: if HCE is getting into building a carbon boat I wonder if an A-cat is on the horizon?
And then there is this:
�� Dacron main sail on boom with reaf points
�� Dacron roller jib
�� Roller genaker
That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The rendering looks very poor. I almost wonder if the Hobie site got hacked and put this up. Just doesn't make sense.
Mike Hill
Hobie eblast
Another
feature
is centerboards, not daggers. Certainly a head scratcher as to who they're targeting with this boat.
That Carbone is getting very close to an A. What ever happened to the Hobie A cat project?
if HCE is getting into building a carbon boat I wonder if an A-cat is on the horizon?
I doubt it. The Acat market is too small, and too niche for Hobie.
It sounds like a Nacra 580
Pearl isn't exactly a very aggressive sounding name to follow Tiger.
Does it come with black sails... Is it crewed by the dam*ed?
<img src=
alt=
/>
Ahaa! The Hobie teams have been painting their sails black lately....
The Pearl isn't the F18 compliant boat is it? Just one of the 3 new models?
You don't think there is a market for a sporty recreational boat? Everyone should own a
Race Boat
or if not then a Getaway. What else is there. H-16?? I talk to people almost weekly that are looking for something inexpensive that will last like a lot of past Hobie's or Prindles or Nacra's.
Unless your trying to be the first to
A
mark what's wrong with centerboards. They work fairly well on the
T
. One very nice feature... they kick up if you hit the bottom!
Just curious, how many of you actually take your boats out on a regular basis and rec sail them?? There is a market out there for this type of boat. If they can price it around what the average jet ski costs then they may have something.
I say let's hear more before going negative. <img src=
alt=
/>
Well, the FX-on in glass/vinylester/alu is current 145 kg in ready to sail attire (singlehanded mode no spi; see Texel measurements). Comparing apples to apples this must be compared to a plain glass/vinylester/alu F16 without jib gear and spi gear = 110 kg - 2 kg - 5 kg = 103 kg. That means that the CARBONE first needs to loose 145 kg - 103 kg = 42 kg = 93 lbs before it can even be lighter then an old tech F16. That is a whole lot of weight to loose even for a all-carbon boat.
The real weightsavings are to be found in improved laminate techniques and quality control systems. With those the old tech FX-one can already get down to 125 kg at the absolute minimum, probably a little bit more. If they weren't using those techiques before then why should they suddenly do it now ? Makes no sense.
Carbon in the rudders and daggerboard is pretty old school already, we all have these in the F18, F16 and A-cat class for some years now. Using carbon cloth there instead of glass is not saving alot of weight at least not in the same measure as proper laminate techniques can achieve. I don't see them save more then 7.5 kg on mast either (based on measured data I have on Tiger masts and F16 carbon masts and adding some margin). I know they are not going to save more then 2.5 kg per beam either. Some maybe we have reduced the weight by 15 kg now, that still means 27 kg have to come out of the hulls; 13.5 kg per hull. Currently the FX-one hulls are above 35 kg a piece. Minus 13.5 kg puts them at 21.5 kg per hull if only they are achieve parity with a plain old tech F16. Currently the best F16 hulls are 22-23 kg per hull and we needed some proper laminate techniques to get that low. No, exchanging the glass matts for carbon matts is not going to make the CARBONE lighter then an old tech F16. They'll need more improvements, mostly in the area of laminate techniques to get to the optimal fibre to resin ratio. And they'll need to loose those heavy alu rudderstocks, that heavy Hobie snuffer and other things.
Another point of note is this. In Europe an FX-one in current build (145 kg old tech) costs 16.000 Euro's without a jib kit. Old tech F16's go for 14.000 or less when the cost for the jib kit is removed from the quote. The CARBONE is not going to be cheaper then the current FX-one due to the extensive use of carbon. A modern TOOL A-cat can be had overhere for 17.500 Euro's, so that CARBONE must take care not to inferiour in performance to an A-cat and be more expensive at the same time. Of course you'll get a fine MacT-shirt ehhh, Hobie T-shirt with that purchase but that's a 10 buck item.
I'll be very interested to see the final specs and quote for this CARBONE
Wouter
Race Boat
or if not then a Getaway. What else is there. H-16?? I talk to people almost weekly that are looking for something inexpensive that will last like a lot of past Hobie's or Prindles or Nacra's.
This is easy to answer. These people are best served with a Nacra 500 and at least you see them pop up everywhere. That Hobie MAX is also a better alternative if Hobie drops is price from the current 16.000 Euro. I mean if I can get a standard nacra 500 for 11.000 Euro, a standard Tiger for 15.000 and an standard F16 for 14.500 why on earth would you pay 16.000 Euro for a Bloody recreational MacMax, eeehh I mean a Hobie Max.
I've sailed both the Hobie Pacific (skeg version of the Tiger) with MacDacron sails, ehh darn it, Hobie Dacron sails and the cheaper Nacra 500 with Pentex sails. The Hobie felt like a missisippi steamboat and the Nacra 500 felt like a nice recreational catamaran.
I think Hobie Europe is getting it completely wrong. Get a proper new F18 design out and keep the Tiger, redesign the hobie singlehander to make it real, improve the Hobie Max as the Hobie 16 replacement and as the recreational entry cat and stick to the rotomoulded Wave for the real novices. All other models must be terminated, they are not serving any viable section of the cat scene. And dump the silly names like Twixxy, Teddy, Catsy and Pearl. I kid you not, these are real Hobie cat names !
A
mark what's wrong with centerboards.
For racing get daggerboards, for recreational sailing get skegs. Centreboards are a bit of neither. They make the design almost as expensive as a daggerboards version and are only very slightly better upwind then skegs but make the boat weight more. You can still get leaking daggerboards wells and they can still jam up with sand and salt. Additionally, they still make traversing the surf more difficult then a hull with skegs.
The time of centreboards has passed.
They belong to a time where the quality of laminate work didn't really allow proper daggerboards. With carbon and better vacuum techniques this is a thing of the past. We might as well go back to wooden masts.
Wouter
Doing some 2008 fact checking (my info was getting dated and I grave accuracy)
Hobie Max (a boat I actually like alot in concept)
Standard version (Dacron, no spi or selfacker, pretty bare) : 12.380 Euro's
Race version (pentex, spi, selftacker, carbon rudders) : 17.390 Euro's
Hobie FX-one
Standard version (Polyester/glass/alu, only a mainsail) : 13.990 Euro's
Fully rigged version (polyester/glass/alu, selftacker+jib, spi+snuffer) : 17.470 Euro's
Hobie 16 :
Standard version : 10.700 Euro's
Youth version (=+spi) : 12.590 Euro's
Now a bit of a shocker :
Hobie Tiger :
Tiger STX (the race version but WITHOUT a spinnaker) : 16.780 Euro's
Tiger STX + spin and snuffer : 18.770 Euro's
The Tiger used to be alot cheaper in the past.
Now as interest to the F12's
Hobie Bravo : 4.032 Euro's
Anybody still want to buy a Hobie Fox at 20.500 Euro's ?
Hobie Pacific (Thre skeg version of the Tiger for recreational sailors/racers)
Standard (Hong Kong Dacron sails, no spi, no selftacker) : 14.440 Euro's
Nice version (+ spi and decent pentex sails) : 17.120 Euro's
And for the kids Hobie Dragoon :
Standard version (almost nothing there) : 6390 Euro's
Decent version for youth Euro's (spi, snuffer, selftacker, decent mainsail, Mast rotation control) : 8960 Euro's
And now for the competition
Nacra 500/nacra inter 17 /nacra infusion : was not able to track down the 2008 pricing.
Stealth F16 full carbon/pentex except beams and fully maxed out doublehander : 13.131 Euro
VWM Blade F16 vinylester/glass/alu/pentex fully maxed out doublehander : 14.500 Euro
AHPC Viper F16 similar to Blade specs : 14.750 Euro
Singlehanders of each is about 1000 to 1500 Euro's cheaper.
Formula 12's not available commerically yet although a project is setup that is going to produce ready-to-sail F12's. Currently homebuilding a F12 takes about 3000 Euro's and will give a boat of the same performance as a Hobie 14 but much lighter and more agile. Current version all come with small daggerboards and only a mainsail.
Wouter
I know the A-Cats are wickedly delicate, but they're managing to build them underweight. Thats a foot longer than the FXone, and two over the F16. Losing the spin equipment is worth 25lbs, not having a main halyard, and making the hulls freakishly small are all things helping this along too. I guess shedding 85lbs is alot to get the FX down to the F16 weight, and halving the weight would be borderline impossible to get it down to A-cat weight. Unless you were comfortable owning a boat that would be destined for the landfill at the end of each day.
The more I thought about this improved FXone today the more upset I got about it. I can't even get anyone to buy the cheap model in my area. I'm screwed if I think I can get someone to buy a even more expensive model. The other downside is that I would want one of these, and at the moment there isn't another boat that I'm really all that interested in getting. I like the platform, ALOT. With this new carbon boat, I'm sure the current FXone will be tossed in the trash-can by HCE, so there will be no new boats coming in at all. I don't know what to do. I was psyched when I bought my FXone, even more so now cause I'm finally starting to get good on it, I really don't want to race on handicap, and I don't want to go back to a non-spin boat, a H16, or a Tiger. Not wanting crew either eliminates those two. I should just get back into racing motorcycles. Supermoto is way too much fun.
Next question, whats it rate?
F17.
Nope
Karl,
Well, A-cats are not that fragile; you just can't abuse them like a H16 and leave unattended on the beach with sails up. Indeed, even F16 owners need to be careful with that in unstable winds. These light boats can tip over when the gust comes from the wrong side. Unhooking the mainsaheet is almost a must. But the A-cat will stand the sailing load in rough weather quite well. And simple tricks have been found to stabilize the mast on these boats so they won't shake themselves down. I think the modern A's are more robust then many people imagine them to be.
That is not Hobie Europe's way of doing things. They'll keep the old version and just add the CARBONE. Hoever, it does mock the OD policy of the hobie organisations and the old and new version are certainly not expected to be of equal performance.
That is hard to predict, but when I use the current Texel specs for the old tech FX-one and punch in the new mainsail area (16.0 sq. mtr up from 14.91 sq. mtr) and assume that they get the weight down to 120 kg then the Texel rating will be :
(ordered from fastest rating to slowest)
A-cat = 99.5 = 100 (no spi !)
CARB-ONE 100.4 = 100
F16 1-up = 100.7 = 101
F18 = 101.2 = 101
F16 2-up = 101.8 = 102
F17 US version = 103.1 = 103
FX-one = 105.9 = 106
EU inter 17 = 109
It should be noted that all boats given above are with spinnaker except the A-cat. And the A's really get hammered for lacking a spi and can't really sail to their rating against spi boats. A better rating for the A's is just behind the F18/F16 2-ups unless the winds are 5 knots and less and the spi's won't fill properly.
The CARBONE looks promising in the speed department but a rating difference of 0.3 to the F16 1-up and 0.8 to the F18 (2-up) is only a difference of respectively 11 secs and 29 sec per hour of bouy racing. Which is pretty negligiable in real life. Due to rounding off of the rating the CARBONE needs to beat both by at least 36 seconds per hour racing. Basically, I expect it to become a level performer to the F18 and F16 classes; which is certainly not a bad thing in my opinion.
Note however that the entlarging of the sail from 14.91 sq. mtr to 16.0 sq. mtr. is responsible for 1.6 points out of 5.5 (30%), the rest (3.9 points) comes from being assumed to be 29 kg (64 lbs) lighter. So roughly 1.34 points per 10 kg. The new Carbone no longer can satisfy the F104 class specs, not even with the old smaller mainsail.
The 30 kg of weight savings seems well founded on the data I have. 6.5 kg on the mast (based on shortened Tiger mast to F16 carbon) max 7 kg per hull in only replacing glass with carbon but keeping same construction as old boat. 1.5 kg per daggerboard (F18 daggerboards to best of F16 daggerboards) and then some 1 kg per rudder setup (stock and board); max 2.0 kg per beam. Total 29.5 kg. They can also replace the boom and spi pole with carbon but that won't save them that much about 1.0 kg while adding lots of costs. Afterall a 35x2 mm black anodised alu boom costs 25 bucks and weights 1.28 kg (used by FX-one currently). You can only save 0.4 kg on that by going to carbon, but pay at least 4 times as much. Note that Hobie has yet to make any daggerboard under 3 kg even the full carbon ones. Going down to 1.6 kg as the best F16 boards are today will be quite a challenge for them. The same for rudderboards and stocks. And that 10.5 kg carbon mast (bare) will not be build in house either.
I hope this clearifies some things or at least gives a feel for what is reasonably expected.
Wouter
Wouter- The FXone is listed as having 16m2 of main sail right now. A least thats what the HCE website says.
All, you need to be carefull to compare like sailarea with like.
With my SCHRS hat on, we've had claimed sail areas in
publications
that are either including or excluding the mast area, mast area makes a big difference!
I'll believe that after it is measured by independent measurers. Like TEXEL or SCHRS rating officials.
Over time the big builders have often been fast and loose with specs they publicize on their webpages.
As of yet the FX-one is registered as having 14.91 sq. mtr sailarea by 8.03 mtr luff by TEXEL and this measurement includes the mast area.
Source : www.texelrating.nl
SCHRS gives : 14.85 sq. mtr by 8.10 mtr again incl. mast area.
Source : http:/
And if the new FX-ones feature a 16 sq. mtr sail already then we can protest out any result over the last period for racing under an invalid handicap. That would be a serious class issue as the class is responsible for maintaining the One-Design status upon punishment of deletion of the standard class rating in favour of forcing every boat owner to get an individual measurement certificate and having him present that at each regatta.
Maybe we should notify the rating officials of this interesting discrepancy ? Simon ?
Wouter
Simon,
16.0 sq. mtr is significantly more then the area used now in rating calculation irrespectibally whether it includes or excludes the mast area. In both cases the current rating for the FX-one is no longer accurate, but at minimum 1.4 points too slow if not indeed more.
Wouter
Not to mention that to a surfer....
pearl
is not a good thing.
I don't think Hobie Alter would approve.
Actually, the 16 should have been called the Pearl.
...(surfing) to dig the nose of one's surfboard into the water, often on takeoff. also [pearl diving]
I'm going to have to say that the French arm of Hobie named that one.