Hobie 20 mods

a carbon mast and proper square top main would go a long way as well.

If you want to compete boat for boat one-design racing is the answer.
Who cares if it's an Inter 20 or a Hobie 20. Speed is relative. Go with the best fleet. If you don't have a C Class you're not playing the speed game.
Unless your some kind of millionaire you will always be racing a boat that is some degree of slow when compared to truly fast boats.

Making the kind of changes you are talking about to the H20 will destroy the existing one-design class. As others have pointed out if you want to sail the H20 then leave it alone and enjoy the one design racing it offers. If you want a boat that performs like an I20 then get an I20.

Prindle tried to do exactly what you are talking about to the P19 making the P19MX and IMHO this action hastened the death of the class.

Dave

I wonder if more Hobie 20's would come to distance races if they had a spinnaker.

Or would making the spinnaker class-legal destroy the current Hobie 20 one-design class?

Hobie 20 sailors could add spinnakers to their boats, at least to use for Portsmouth racing, just as other classes have, but I haven't heard of many doing that.

Whoops, Dave's post beat me to it about it destroying the existing one-design class.

I'd love to sail my 20 with a spin, but it would change the class from a couple's class with a lower weight limit of 295 pounds to one that required heavier, stronger sailors. If I were to sail my H20 in a distance race I'd just retrofit it with a spinnaker for those events. Granted, the daggers do have a lot of drag compared with higher-aspect designs, but the boat is still faster than the I20 upwind and downwind the daggers are half-way up anyway. I think with sailors of equal ability, it would be a close race. As proof, an H20 won the Great Texas Cat Challenge.

I probably should have added a little background. In Division 11 the H20 fleet is pretty much done. Our division racing is 16s, 17s and a smattering of 18s. We do have some H20s in and around the DC area and find our racing portsmouth style on the Chesapeake with CRAC. Even the I20s don't get enough together to race one design. I am a huge fan of one design, but, sadly, that isn't happening with any boat in my area except the A cats.

Regarding killing the class; how alive is it at the present? I wonder how many H20s Hobie sells each year; I haven't seen any new ones. My idea was that taking the risk in changing the rules would keep the boat more current and maybe stimulate sales.

To be fair, I have heard that the H20 is the only larger cat that mixed crews can sail because it doesn't have a spin. I think this is true, as I have sailed with a number of females and most of them were great crew, but wouldn't have had the strength to handle a spinnaker (they didn't think so either). But I don't think the H20 class has many mixed crews sailing the boat and the game seems to have gone to spin boats; certainly for distance racing and even for buoy racing. Everyone says they are more exciting and once you go there, you don't want to go back. I like the Hobie 20; I think its a good looking boat and sails well and would like to see it stay alive as a class.

David
H20 781

Pitchpoledave said:
"a carbon mast and proper square top main would go a long way as well."

I thought of that, but wouldn't that be more expensive to retrofit? My hope would be to make changes that current owners might realistically invest in.

David
H20 781

Seriously now.

The I20 is a lot faster than the H20 upwind. Believe me I know I sailed the H20 a lot.

If you change the boards and add a chute you will have a boat that is still slightly slower than an I20. If you buy a carbon mast and a larger main sail you might be getting close to the speed. So for about $7000 dollars you might have a boat that could compete head to head with an I20. Seems to me you would be a lot better off selling the H20 and getting into a class that is popular in your area. H16, H17, F18, or I20.

Keep One Hull Flying,
Mike Hill

With due respect :

I always wondered why the introduction of the midpole snuffer, the selftacker, the flatter spis, the new rudderboards and other upgrades never destroyed the US I-20 class ?

We always hear how allowing chance destroys a class but all the classes are are growing and surviving are exactly the classes that allow chance ! I-20's, F18's, A-cats, I-17, even F16's

Don't we all think it is time to face the reality ? That not chance kills a class but stagnation.

To Davidn I would like to say.

If you don't have a meaningful H20 class nearby then go for it !

In order :

Spinnaker
Selftacker (just because it make spi sailing more comfortable)
Squaretop main

Forget out the rest or decide to buy a different boat before adding the spi, selftacker and squaretop main.

With regards to Girls handling spi's. Have them steer and have yourself do the spi and get double ratchets on each side (4 in total). If Jennifer Lindsay and Kelly Gray can win their Alter cup qualifier and sail a Tiger in training then so can you !

Wouter

Just to be clear, not planning any changes to the 20 nor do I think we would, ever.

As for the I20's, all the mods presented simply don't make that much difference. I don't have a laced tramp, mid pole snuffer, or the new rudders. Don't miss them either! None of the mods obsoleted the existing boats. Many haven’t put ANY of the mods on their boat and do just fine.

The changes David is talking about making to the H20... new dagger boards, spin, and a larger main those are major changes and will obsolete every one of the existing H20’s.

Not everyone wants to race Formula; Formula isn't all things to all people. There are a lot of folks that really enjoy one design. Now I understand all one design classes have undergone changes, but most successful one design classes manage their changes very carefully.

My point to David is to either sick with the H20 as is and get people excited about the class again, or get into an existing formula class or spin enabled one design. Don't spend a [censored] load of money retrofitting a boat just to end up sailing open anyway, unless of course that's your thing.

Dave

If the Hobie 20 and the Hurricane 5.9 are so similar, why not try the SX kit which has given the 5.9 a new lease of life and keeps the cat on the same handicap number it always had.

I think you just made a bunch of H20 drivers very happy!

David,

I understand your reasons fully, Even I like One-design racing. That is not it.

The thing that gets me everytime that the paradox that if so many people prefer and enjoy OD racing then why are all OD classes dead ? In my area only the H16 and Dart 18 are holding on to some OD class but losing ground just the same. All those N5.2, N5.5, N6.0, H17, TheMightyHobie18, P16, P18, P18-2, P19, etc fleets are completely gone.

The biggest example I can refer to is the Tornado class. Over 2/3rds of the members voted against the upgraded Tornado; this would make for a solid base to continue the (classic) Tornado class for years. However; 18 months later the classic Tornado was all but dead and the few break-away sailors gethered a whole new class around them that would dominate once more.

I've seen it happen to all the fleets. Majority of class members votes against ANY changes whatsever. But when the small active core of volunteers leave because THEY want some changes than that whole majority collapses as if they never really existed. Most of them you can find again in the new class, after a few months of being sour, and then it starts all over again. Most of them just don't have a spine, want to have others do the work and resist any change because they can. Never, ever, does it occure to them that they can keep their class if they put some effort in themselfs.

I wish it was different.

Wouter

1: The class did not want the new rig, but ISAF did..
2: The Tornado will have a carbon mast from 2005.

So, we will soon see if changes kills the Tornado class or if no change would have been for the better (straying a bit off topic for this thread now, aren't we?)

Regards
Rolf

Matt, I still wonder how healthy the class is. I only see part of the picture (Division 11), but the H20 is not a functioning class there and it causes me to wonder if that is happening a lot around the country. If Hobie is selling a steady amount (I doubt if any manufacture sells large numbers of any single racing cat model), then I understand Hobies reluctance to consider change.

The thread was part theoretical thinking (its winter, you know) and part practical. My guess is the dagger boards while a change that could only be done with the manufacture as a real model change to the class, would dramatically improve the upwind performance of the H20. Of course, I can add a spin, which I am considering, in order to better compete in the portsmouth racing in which I find myself.

But where are the pockets of Hobie 20 strength?

David
H20 781

So, we will soon see if changes kills the Tornado class or if no change would have been for the better /quote]
The Tornado was the 4th largest fleet at a UK Cat Nationals this year, with 34 cats. As Yachts and Yachting says this is unprecedented.

 

"But where are the pockets of Hobie 20 strength?"

Mid-West

I would actually bet that there are more Hobie 20s racing in the US than INter 20s

Hi Wouter,
It is a bit of a mystery why everyone professes a love of one-design (the pluses are self-evident) yet the classes get very fractured at the upper end of the beach cat spectrum. In our area the H20 almost killed off the TheMightyHobie18 class. As I understand it because I wasn't there, the H20 was developed to respond to the Nacra 18. The Nacra 20 was then developed to respond to the H20. When the I20 came out it decimated the H20 fleet in my area. Now the I20 fleet is suffering as it lost members to the 18HT boats. My point is that a lot of skippers at this level are looking for the next home run boat; to show up with the lastest and greatest.

When I got my H20, I was in awe of it, but I noticed that it didn't get any respect at the regattas as everyone was "cooing" over the I20s; my boat and I were definitely "not happening"

This pattern will continue forever, I think. When I got into cat racing I always wondered why the cat sailors didn't maintain long time fleets (the H16 being possibly the only exception). In dinghy racing one can think of many examples; Lightning, Snipe, Lazer, Albacore, Flying Scot...some of these boats are over 60 years old and have only slightly, slowly evolved. People race them their whole lives. Cat sailors seem to be different--but I think I'm touching on a new thread here.

David
H20 781

here it is

The H20 sailors on the coasts have switched to the Tiger or other spin boats, but in the middle of the country, the 20 is still very strong. It's probably the fastest growing boat in our fleet (61 in Denver) and is very popular in other Midwest states. Of the 35 to 45 Hobies that show up at our regattas, about 25 percent or more are H20s.

On a different subject: Hey, Jake. I think an upwind race between an I20 and an H20 would be very close, but without a head-to-head test, it's impossible to tell (the gauntlet is thrown!)
See ya on the water!

That is almost certainly true

David,
I agree with a lot of you're saying. I think if you look at some of the long-standing one-design classes you'll see classes that had occaisional updates to the boats, gear, or sailplan. Compare a Star class boat to what it was in the beginning. If it hadn't changed, it would have died. What I see in the one-design classes for cats is a hard core nothing changes attitude, and the boats begin to fail to capture the imagination and passion of the sailors.

When I sailed my 18, I mused quite a bit about an add-on package that would pump the boat up a bit. I didn't want to have an 18 that was as fast as some other boat, I just thought there were some things that could make a more enjoyable and up to date version. Similar things to what you mentioned - removable daggerwell inserts to allow use of higher aspect boards, a spin package, and a modernization of the sail plan. As a package it could be added to the boats for HC racing and removed for OD. If it gained wide enough acceptance the change kit might make it back into the one design some day. I did add a spin to that boat, and I can say it is an addictive thing.

When I had my 20, I used to think about how easy it would be to do a simple modernization of the sail plan, along the lines of what was done for the Tornado. Change the cut of the main to a square, make the jib self tacking, and add a modern cut high aspect spinnaker. I never wanted to do this simply to keep up with the I-20s, I just thought the boat would be really nice to sail in that config, and such a beautiful boat deserves a modernization once and awhile. And I honestly think it could add new life to the class, but that's just me. Forget adding a carbon spar or other costly things. You could still do a removable insert for the wells to run different boards.

Now people say "requiring new sails would kill the class" - only if the new sails are prohibitively expensive or require expensive updates to the platform. Many OD racers replace their sails very often, so honestly buying new sails shouldn't be an issue. Keep the area low on the spinnaker, but make it a more efficient cut, and you shouldn't scare off the mixed teams either. For that reason, the Tiger set-up is probably ideal, also considering it comes from Hobie.

But again, I wouldn't make the emphasis on being faster boat for boat with the I-20s. I would concentrate on modernizing the boat in a reasonable way the builds on the strengths of the design and the people that want to sail it. Add the mods up for your handicap, show people how nice it is, and maybe it will catch on.

As for no mods made ever for the 20 or other one design classes, I can only what a shame. Class designs should be able to reasonably update with the times.

I still like the 20 and definitely had fun going head to head with you David! But I must admit I love my 6.0...

Indeed the H20 is a beautiful boat with a good following in some areas. I dont think there are any new ones being sold(correct me if Im wrong), so the class may want to invigorate itself. I think you should start with a new main and jib, leave everything else alone. See how the class rsponds to these changes. Put out a poll, or sail the boat DPN with the new sail package. If you are not sailing with a fleet of 20's, then do what you want. Make the boat more exciting and attractive for you. If you start kicking booty, then maybe it will catch on.

Have fun!

David
F18

Hi David
Just some food for thought about the H20 mast and potential sail plan revisions.

I believe the presence of a comp tip is a real challenge for a sail maker in designing a square top sail. If the rumor mill was accurate. The Hobie Fox suffered in the US because it also had a comp tip and the development of the sail never quite got it right (flexi tip caused the leech to open prematurely). Alternatively, the head to head with the I20 always demonstrated that the larger sails on the I20 trumped the Fox's F20 sail plan. The San Diego sailors should be able to comment on the Fox with a comp tip and the square top and spin versus the I20.

I have never seen a Fox on the water so I have absolutely no first hand knowledge if any of this proved to be true.

Finally with respect to spin size. Texel and ISAF seem to favor 24 sq meter chutes for 20 foot boats. The Tornado chute of 25 sq is considered oversized by texel. The I20 chute is 24 sq meters and the NE 100 chute of 28 sq if memory is correct.

For what its worth... the 25 sq m chutes are hard work in a breeze (you don't want to do 4 hours of racing with them)

The NE 100 chutes frequently use a doublers for distance races. (not double ratchets).

Finally, the High aspect jibs on the Tornado and I 20 are useless going downwind alone without a chute. (That's why you will see the I20's avoid hot reaches to sail high and then pop the chute to get down on odd ball courses.)

Take Care
Mark

>>Finally, the High aspect jibs on the Tornado and I 20 are useless going downwind alone without a chute. (That's why
you will see the I20's avoid hot reaches to sail high and then pop the chute to get down on odd ball courses.)

I don't fully agree here.

The selftacker may be less efficient on the downwinders but never useless. "Useless" suggests that you can just as well saile without it on the downwinders and that is certainly not true. Also I very much believe the reason for the loss of a little speed on the downwinders is to be found in the cut of the selftacker jibs. Selftackers are still exclusively used on spi boats and here the jibs are complete cut to optimized upwind sailing by sarcrifising the reach and downwind performance when sailing without a jib. This all has nothing to do with being high aspected or not not even with the selftacker setup itself. It is a direct result of the flatter cut od these spis when compared to jib on non spi boats.

I found signs for this on some personal experiences between my Taipan F16 and standard Taipans. Especially since me first jib was cut a little to full for a spi boat. It would collapse when I pointed with the standard Taipans and so I lost there. However on reaches and downwinders I was quite alright. Only on deep downwinders the standard boats gained ever so slowly on me. I won't go into details. Experience gained during touring stages of this summers DCC in 4 - 14 knots of wind.

The specs of the boats were

Standard Taipan

jib 4.15
main 14.56

total 18,71 sq. mtr.

Taipan F16
jib 3.45 sq.mtr (May be larger under F16 rules but construction limits prevent this)
Main 14.85

Total 18.30 sq. mtr.

So I was sailing with 0.41 sq. mtr. (4.5 sq. ft.) less area in total.

I'm recut the luff curve and I think I gained upwind performance against some loss on the downwind legs. I think the reaches will still be relatively all right maybe a small loss here.

If anything, we can take away from this that entlarging the square-top and putting a selftacker on can result in about the same performance as the overlapping jibbed boat with a pinhead main. Actually I found the differences to be so small that they may all be caused by errors in trim and balance. I know for certain that I sailed the DCC event with to much prebend and the middle section of my mainsail wasn't working optimally. I saw the tell tales in the middle do funny things but only realized in the last week what the cause had to be.

Wouter

Didn't the Nacra 6.0 add a spinnaker option a few years ago. How has that effected the 6.0 class?

Actually
They did not add the spin option to the boat and as a result the class is not able to sustain much one design interest at the national level.

The class is much like the Hobie 20 and the majority of boats are likely to be the same age eg 5 to 10 years old.

Sailors are faced with the age old debate... The boat is nearing the end of its racing life... Do I replace it with the same boat... change classes or change the kind of sailing that I do.

What's your advice Hobiezealot?
Mark