Hobie 20 mods

Actually they did - the New England guys created their specs with the spinnaker and asked Performance Cat to adopt it and make it an option on the boat. Perf did adopt a spinnaker option for the 6.0NA but they went their own way ignoring the work done by the New England group. I don't know of anyone that ever purchased the factory spinnaker option on the 6.0.

How has that effected the class in the New England Area?

Well...it's hard to point fingers at anything concrete but it seems that most of the folks that sailed 6.0's in the Tybee500 began to ask themselves why they aren't sailing Nacra 20s. The 6.0NA class is still relatively strong in the North East, Florida Pan handle, and Texas.

I can say that all the sailors were pretty disappointed that Performance chose not to support the New England package but I'm not sure that it had any real negative effect on the class. My opinion is that the 6.0 class is in a pretty serious downswing at the moment and that the majority of that is due to the Nacra 20's strength in offshore ability and health of it's own class. At least around here, if you're going to sail a 20 footer, the Nacra 20 is the only game in town unless you want to sail by yourself.

^ Jake hit the nail on the head.

We just recently moved from a 6.0 to a N20. I personally felt the N20 was a more complete boat. It was designed from the start with a spinnaker, whereas the 6.0 its always been an "add-on."

When racing head to head against the N20's, it always seemed that we were struggling to get the spinnaker tuned just right. We had custom sails cut for it, made adjustments in every little direction, but in the end, its just smart, I think, to go with a system thats been setup by the factory.

This is not just the age-old debate -- it is also the "old-age" debate, because most of the cat sailors are getting older, along with their boats. That has an influence on the questions they ask and the decisions they make.

I watched the New England 6.0 spinnaker issue with much interest as it showed a strong regional attachment to the boat and a desire to let it evolve somewhat. I was impressed with the NE skippers getting those specs put together. My guess is that Rick Bliss was probably one of the driving forces in getting that done. The existence of the N20 (I20) made by Nacra, however, means that the factory probably won't fully embrace the boat—they have a new boat to sell as their hot 20 footer. My thinking is that with the Fox out of the picture the only 20 foot racing boat Hobie has is the Miracle 20. Since this is Hobie’s representation in this prestigious class it would make some sense to let upgrades happen. Certainly, I recognize that one has to do this very carefully so as to not alienate (by making obsolete) the current H20 owners.

As Keith Chapman and Dave Mosley said it might work to establish some evolutionary and cost effective changes; then apply an adjusted Portsmouth rating to them and allow them to run alongside the current design to allow time for skippers to adopt. If the changes get accepted, they could then become the new specs for the class. Sails get replaced, a spinnaker could be added, and maybe dagger board inserts are not too expensive to consider. Is this practical?

The comp tip may be a problem when considering a square top main; I never thought of that issue. If a new mast were required to enable the sail to perform, I doubt this would work as skippers wouldn't easily be convinced to buy new masts.

SteveT, I know you approved of Matt’s statement that there will be no H20 changes, but, since you are in an area with H20 strength, do you see any scenario where the skippers would support modernization changes to the H20 in order to make Hobie’s 20 footer more competitive?

I’m a business man, so ultimately I know that the factory has to believe changes to the boat will stimulate new boat sales (or significant sales of upgrades) or there is no reason for them to pursue any changes.

I'm happy with the boat the way it is. If I want to sail a 20-foot cat with a spinnaker, I'll get an Inter 20. In a region with a strong H20 fleet, there is no reason to make any changes - beyond very minor ones - as everyone is already sailing an equal boat. I think the H-20 fleet has several seasons left before the Tiger finaly takes over in this area, (I'll probably be one of the first in my fleet to make the switch in 2006).

In the mean time, I don't see any reason to make changes to the class so it's competitive with another brand of boat. As I said in an earlier post, if I want to do more distance races, I'll add a spinnaker or buy a boat designed with one as part of the class.

Is the H20 strong enough to carry a spinnaker now?

Around 1995, I receive my former H20 with a replacement hull, then received 3 replacement hulls from Hobie for a former H20, and had to buy the fourth one, over a period of around 3 years, as they broke one at a time. Hobie always gave me the same reason why it failed. But over three years, one would think they would have changed their excuse or method of construction?

What is the competitive lifespan of a H20 now?

Plenty strong for a spinnaker. A 20 did the Worrell with mast head chute years ago in the roughest year. They used some running backstays I think.

The issue with the 20 hulls failing along the glue seam in the mid 90's was corrected and has not been a problem since. That was a post/hand finishing problem. The finising guys were sanding through the layup trying to fair out the seam because the glue jigs were mis-aligned.

>>The issue with the 20 hulls failing along the glue seam in the mid 90's was corrected and has not been a problem since. That was a post/hand finishing problem. The finising guys were sanding through the layup trying to fair out the seam because the glue jigs were mis-aligned.<<

Matt, what I find incredulus is over the period of THREE years (replacing THREE hulls sequentially),
it took 3 years (& 3 hulls) to figure that out?........IMPRESSIVE

What is funny is EVERY time/year, I replaced a hull, they told me the SAME story you told me for THREE years?

After the THIRD time getting the same story made me wonder, how are those finishing guys keeeping their jobs?

Holiday cheers,
Chris

Chris,
The story about Hobie hull "year" versus the actual year a hull was constructed has been discussed here before.
Supposedly H-Corp. builds large numbers of hulls at a time without serial numbers (look at the hand etched serial numbers on hulls).
As they construct boats, they put the current year serial numbers on the hulls.

Hulls built by one group of incompetants could be used for several years production.

If a company found a group of its products to be defective, they could stop using that product run for production boats, and use the remaining stock as replacements.
Of course that would be rude and tacky (possibly illegal?) and we all know that the GREAT AND BENEFICENT HOBIE CORP would never do that to their loyal customers

There is a great crowd of Hobie 20 sailors in Texas - I think they have made a fleet at nearly every regatta I have been to this year. There are also a few who will put spinnakers on the boat for distance races like the Great Texas Catamaran Race and Ruff Riders. The new Tornado spin seems to be a popular option.

The winner of the Great Texas Cat Race in 2004 was a Hobie 20 with a Tornado spin. The boat had an additional set of stays made from high tech fiber rigged from the top of the comp tip to the side stay anchor plates.

Ruffriders was also won by a different Hobie 20, also with a Tornado spinnaker. (Bag launch in both cases I think).

The Hobie 20 is a glorious boat. Very satisfying to sail and crew on. Contrary to some statements made in this post I have not seen it perform faster upwind than the Nacra 20 (another very fine catamaran). Sailing downwind in 12 or more knots it is great to wild-thing a Miracle 20.

What it lacks is a class legal spinnaker. Once you are used to running a spinnaker downwind on a beach cat I think you are spoiled for life. No matter what the attraction of one design (or formula) racing on non-spinnaker boats, I think the adrenaline trip of running a spin out weighs this.

I think this means an inevitable move from non-spin to spinnaker boats (vive le F18!). Before that happens though, long live the Hobie 20 class in it's current form. And may I propose adoption of the Tornado spin, rigged any way you want as an separate class for distance racing - in the style of the Nacra 6.0NA w/New England spin.

Chris.

P.S. I am sad to report that the Nacra 6.0 NA may be declining in Texas. At least one regular has defected to the Nacra 20 camp.

Now that's what I suspected! The Hobie 20 is a great, non-spin boat, but to attract new owners, I think it must have a spinnaker these days. You make an interesting point about running an extra set of wires from the top of the mast to support it. Also, is the Tornado spin about the same size as the I20/N20 spin (I think about 270 sq. ft.)?

David
H20

The Hobie 20 is a really fun boat minus the spinnaker. H20 fleets are strong in the Midwest and up until last year could be considered the strongest in this area.

To attract more sailors to the H20:

1. Make the boat lighter weight. It is not an easy boat to lug around a beach with two people.

2. Automate some of the adjustments. Waves, H16s and Getaways are popular because they are simple. There are a lot of lines on an H20 and adding a Spin. isn't going to make it more popular.

3. Wings. I don't know if the "Euro-Wings" are avail. for the H20, but wings: A. are comfy & B. Help when in a good blow.

4. Price. The cheaper they can make it, the better.

Flounder, all of your suggestions can easily be handled by just making a remote control model version of the boat that can be operated from a comfortable chair on a dock.

Not being on the boat takes all the fun out of it! ha ha ha.

I have to admit though that those little remote controlled power boats are a lot of fun in a pool.

The h20 is a hoot with a reacher on it. The sail drives the bows down a bit more so you have to shift your weight back but its furling system helps alot. Also can sail upwind in REALLY light air. Have done it have photos and a shirt to prove it.

Steve

Hi David

It sounds like you would like find a consensus among the Hobie 20 racers for some kind of "unoffical class" approved spinaker rig... much like the New England 6.0 nacra group did. The goal of course is to get a level playing field on the race course while providing an unofficial and unsanctioned upgrade path that any H20 sailor could join in and support. If the Texas 20's, who are pre disposed to this kind of tinkering, have landed on a Tornado chute for the boat... you might have the begining of a consensus.

One thing to keep in mind. Texel and ISAF rate spinakers by size relative to the length of the boat and the Tornado chute at 25 sq meter for a 20 foot boat is considered oversized and docked another percent (in Texel ratings at least.) USPN does not regulate spinaker size with respect to rating adjustment (although Darline has long thought that such a thing should be regulated)

Take Care
Mark

Oh, Man! I can't imagine that any of this would make the boat more popular. On the contrary, it would probably sink (pardon the pun) the class. The H-20 is a technical, difficult boat to sail well. It's that challenge that brings people to the fleet. Why else would someone move up from a H16 or TheMightyHobie18, or anything else, if the 20 was less technical and less challenging?

1. When considering lighter weight, consider durability. The boat is already built lighter per foot than the 18.
2.See above
3. My couch is comfy and sailing skill is much more usefull in a big blow.
4. I'll pay for quality.

Don't change a thing. The boat is great the way it is. If you want to race one-design with a spinnaker, get a spin-designed boat. If you want to do distance races, modify a spinnaker for the 20, but any major class-sanctioned changes won't make the fleet more appealing.

Good Post Steve!! I totally agree. I think the H20 class is great the way it is right now. I would hate to see a bunch of changes made to one of the best boats ever produced.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

Mike,
Not to be argumentative, but you used to own an H20 and now own a Tiger. Why did you switch? If it was because the class was dying out where you were sailing, how much larger is the Tiger class? In my area it is smaller than our extremely small H20 class. Was it for the spinnaker? Was it to get on an up and coming boat? SteveT says that is why and where he is going in 2006.

Your switching boats and Steve's anticipated switch seem to make my point that, even though the H20 is a wonderful boat and basically the only 20 footer racing without a spinnaker, those facts may not be enough to attract new skippers or even retain current skippers. I could just try to sell the H20 and go out and buy a Tiger, but I would like to stay with the 20 and would like to see the class flourish. Since I don't see any 2 person race boats being developed without spinnakers, that leads me to highly suspect a spinnaker may be needed to keep the boat current. If Hobie had a another 20 foot spin boat (like the I20) I would not see any reason for them to consider a change, in fact I would expect them to phase the Miracle 20 out. Since the above is not the case, I think there is a good argument to be made to consider updating the Hobie 20.

Since Matt says emphatically there are no changes going to be made to the H20, I would ask him what he sees in the future for a top-of-the-line 20 foot racing cat from Hobie. Is the Tiger going to be the top line boat? Is the Miracle going to be the top line boat? (It could; it more than matches the Tiger upwind and with a spin would outrun it downwind.)

David
H20

These boats can race boat for boat, by adding a spin to the Hobie. I can beat some of them and some of them beat me. I'll presume it is sailing skill.
My future wife has no problem with the spin, but we trade off on long runs. Ratchetting blocks are key.
if the Hobies and the inters are raced boat for boat then there is a larger class, and everyone agrees that racing boat for boat is better than racing numbers, (unless the numbers are really in your favor and you do not wish to improve your sailing skill).
my 2 cents. where we sail it is getting harder to attract sailors to race. anything that makes a larger class is good.

I switched for a lot of reasons. I really loved racing the H20 and resisted changing. I also ran a chute on my H20 in some distance races which was fun. Since the H20 was not designed with a spinnaker in mind from the start it suffers from some helm issues under spinnaker.

I switched because I do like sailing with a spinnaker better. Also I saw the class moving to the F18 class Nationwide. I saw the Tiger as giving me lots of alternatives for racing around the country.

And contrary to what some others think in my opinion an H20 can not compete fairly against an I20 in a heads up race. An I20 is simply faster upwind by a good margin. An I20 has a 32 foot mast compared to a 30' 6" mast. It simply has a more powerful engine. I'm sure an I20 is also faster downwind but I don't have any personal experience to base that on.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

David I used to drive a H20 about 4 years ago, and I also wrote Matt asking him if Hobie would consider changing the sail plan to be more competitive with the N60 (the hot boat at the time). He gave me gave me exactly same answer he has given here. At the time I was a little put out by his response. Now in hindsight (many years later) I can appreciate Matt's position and his support of the class. I'll be the first one to admit I have an issue or two with Hobie and Mr. Miller, but I really do respect their position when it comes to preserving a one design class (still love on the Hobie edict though Matt).

As you have also pointed out the H20 is one of the last 20’, sloop, non spin, and two up boats left. I’d be willing to bet a large portion of the folks sailing the H20 are rather one design centric and aren’t looking for the kind of changes to the boat you are proposing (otherwise they would have left by now). You have yourself a very nice niche, try to exploit it! Not every team wants to run a spin around the cans and as several people including you have stated you can always put a spin on the boat and have a competitive distance racer.

Just because the H20 isn’t the bell of the ball anymore doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a lot of fans out there. The TheMightyHobie18 Magnum has made a respectable comeback in FL, and for a while the H14 was pretty hot. If for some reason Matt has a complete break down and allows the H20 to be modified as you propose, I’d bet a case of Mt. Gay the H20 will join the ranks of the P19MX and NE60/N60 inside a year.

One more thing, if Matt had allowed the sail plan changes I wanted way back when I would have left anyway. I had/have a serious hard on for the N20.

Dave

Some ramblings...

The differences between the H20 and the P19 and NE 6.0 are that the P19 class was pretty much already dead when the MX rig showed up, and the NE 6.0 seems to be dying for just the reason folks would like to see Hobie update the 20 - it sounds like they're going to the I20 because it has a factory rig that includes the spin instead of having to cobble something together.

The 20 is still a viable boat in some areas, and even if you don't add the spin, some updates to the rest of it just may help keep things going and fresh. I always got the feeling with Hobie that once a boat is designed and built, that's it, no updates to the class. After awhile it feels like a joke.

So Hobie is left with no viable answer to the N20, and until they can find another boat to import, they won't. And by viable answer to the N20 I don't mean something that will necessarily run head to head with it, but something that will at least capture sailor's imaginations enough to stay with the Hobie. From a new boat perspective, I'd see little reason to buy one over a Tiger, except that at my weight and size I like a 20 foot boat, so it would be N20 for me if I wanted a spin.

At the point I sold my 20 I was contemplating adding a spinnaker, not because of any illusions of catching I20s, it was just because I really liked sailing with a spin. I was a bit hesitant regarding the hull strength, as my boat had previously had a repair to the infamous hull problem - it had been repaired with no problems showing anymore, but I didn't want to push it.

I liked the feeling of the 20, it's pretty and it's responsive and balanced and quick, but it wasn't up to the speed of a 6.0 with no spin, and the 6.0 holds crew weight better. The first time I powered through chop without slapping the crossbeams and tramp in the water I knew that even though I missed the 20 I was happy with the new boat. But, if the 20 had the speed potential near the 6.0 I probably would have stuck with it.

So maybe there's an idea for the 20 foot non-spin boats - try to get some parity among them through updates and sail heads up in a non-spin formula class as well as in one-design. I'd bet you could update the H20 with mods that could fold back into the class, and give it dual life, and breath some life into some dying classes.

I've always felt that with dying-class boats that there was an opportunity for an owner's group to form a non-factory class association and take the boats where the factory won't. This could happen - the NE 6.0 guys had something like that going, but it's now faltering. I think in the end, the basis of strength for these kinds of things would come from people willing to breath new life into older boats because they don't want to spend the cash for a new one, or are just big fans of the particular design. But it also relies on something else that is a big soap-box issue for me - you need enough sailors. Here I'll get off topic, sorry.

We're still in the game of moving sailors from one class to the next. In the end, one class thrives and another one dies. Maybe that's just the way it will be, some sailors are always going to move around, and why shouldn't they? But if we continue to bring new sailors into the sport, the variety might thrive and might indeed be the reason the new sailors come in.

So, new blood, new blood, new blood, new blood. With new sailors comes the critical mass to keep existing classes alive and keep new ones growing. David - spec out some changes to the 20, and pump it up not just among the existing sailors but to new blood - "here's a great bang for the buck alternative, find out if you like cat sailing without buying a new N20" kind of a thing.

In our area the A-Cats are the growing class, and with good reason. And some people have traded in their whatever boats to go there. But we've also gotten some mono converts, and we're always looking for the next batch of people to join the WRCRA to take the spots the A-Cats might leave behind.

Why am I saying this? Because the H20 is a nice boat and I think an upgrade would be great, but no upgrade is going to change an I20 sailor back. But it might make a great alternative to somebody who hasn't gone there yet, and that person might be the fresh blood - whether the upgrade is something Hobie offers or some other package of specs. The Hobie 20 is not unique here, I think the 18 could still be used in such a manner, but it would take some vision. And you'd have to remember that the target is new blood.

As a relatively new 6.0 sailor, I have to admit I'm disappointed that the NE scene doesn't seem to be working out, it's something I would have moved my boat towards. But we've got three 6.0s in our club, who knows, maybe the Chesapeake 6.0 spec is next...

Ramble mode off, Happy New Years to all!

Keith, David

Hobie does make a 20'spin boat called the Hobie Fox. The boat just did not seem to do well in the US when they cut the mast and put a comp-tip on it.

I don't know about others, but the Fox just never caught my fancy.

The H20 is a nice boat. The Fox is a nice boat too but not nice enough to bait the H20 guys into making a fresh investment. Although I am a "B Fleet" sailor, there have been many times that I have hung in there with the rock stars until I made a fatal error, always my fault, not the boats'.

The problem with the Fox (with apologies for drifting a bit off topic) is that Hobie brought over a F20 spec boat and had it compete with the I20 which had more sail area for the lighter US winds (i.e. it wasn't a F20 spec boat at that point). The I20 had a head start in the market, and Hobie comes along with the Fox which is slower on the race course...result is no one bought them. Its an odd marketing decision on Hobie's part, especially when we see them willing to allow the Tiger to be not strictly spec'd for F18.

So Hobie has no top-of-the-line spin boat. The choices are:
1. Consider the Tiger the top line boat and don't worry about competing with the I20
2. Bring back the Fox with US mods so it can go head to head with the I20
3. Modify the H20 so it could go head to head with the I20 (some may not think this possible with the current platform, but, anything's possible).
4. Design a totally new boat. Not likely, but, again, anything's possible.

What do the rest of you think? Every manufacture has a top line boat in their line up. This should be the prestige boat in the line. And in racing, you want that top boat to be able to kick a** on the race course. How would you advise Hobie on this issue?

David
H20 (still ruminating, 'cause its still winter)