Dave... that is what your RSA or regional sailing authority is for. Again... in my area... the yacht clubs organize into CBYRA... When a yacht club fubars an event... the sailors complain to the club and to the RSA (CBYRA) The CBYRA then tries to fix the problem ... The RSA's are the volunteer outfits that USSA sanctions.... when this does not satisify... you can always move the issue up to USSA.
So... Why take an issue national when a local or regional solution works. Seems to me that you guys need to work with your RSA more.
The info I'm looking for isn't there. Please point me to the link that shows me how many times an appeal has been filed against a judge and how many times it's been upheld or overturned.
Show me a link that provides the statistics about Race Officers.
Isn't the RSA a part of US Sailing? If this isn't something US Sailing should work on... What is it that US Sailing does again?
If anything can be guaranteed, it's this: Whining about any of this here is not likely to move the ball forward.
Take your mouse, and find the people who can help you, it's really not very hard.
For ROs, here is a list of people to discuss this with: http:/
More RO info here: http:/
For judges, try this: http:/
Hope this helps.
Mike
Ah... here we go again... YOU ARE NOT BUYING A STINKING SERVICE!!..
This is a partnership of all of the interested organizations....handled at the local level.
Yes, cats have run their own world for 40 years..(Can you point me to reviews of Cat Sailing Clubs and their performance) Yacht clubs have been doing this work for years as well.. They do this in partnership with the OD fleets and the various clubs in the area.
Even a casual observer of sailboat racing probably knows that St Petersburg YC is one of the most successful YC's in the states at running high quality events... Having trained national level PRO's and judges... they have a large amount of experience. Hell, they even wrote their own one design scoring program (St Petes scorer)...
THe F18 board says that they did a great job last weekend for the F18's and they want to host another event in December. They have also done A cat events in the past ....
Did you guys look up St Petes on the
consumer reports table
before you signed up???
The asinine request that there be a
consumer reports
on PRO's and Judges is more of the same attitude...
I will say it again... You are NOT BUYING A PRO Service or a Judge service. You are supposed to be forming a partnership of volunteers to further the sport.
Just for the record, this is such a stupid thread. <img src="<>/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy" height="15" width="15" />
This is a partnership of all of the interested organizations....handled at the local level.
Yes, cats have run their own world for 40 years..(Can you point me to reviews of Cat Sailing Clubs and their performance) Yacht clubs have been doing this work for years as well.. They do this in partnership with the OD fleets and the various clubs in the area.
Even a casual observer of sailboat racing probably knows that St Petersburg YC is one of the most successful YC's in the states at running high quality events... Having trained national level PRO's and judges... they have a large amount of experience. Hell, they even wrote their own one design scoring program (St Petes scorer)...
THe F18 board says that they did a great job last weekend for the F18's and they want to host another event in December. They have also done A cat events in the past ....
Did you guys look up St Petes on the
consumer reports table
before you signed up???
The asinine request that there be a
consumer reports
on PRO's and Judges is more of the same attitude...
I will say it again... You are NOT BUYING A PRO Service or a Judge service. You are supposed to be forming a partnership of volunteers to further the sport.
You have done an amazing job showing me the value of US Sailing. I feel like a fool for not renewing my membership, thank you for your patience and time.
You're confusing entities here, Dave. Judges don't issue decisions - Protest Committees do. Usually there's more than one judge on a protest committee.
When a decision is appealed, it first goes to the Regional Sailing Association Appeals Committee made up of . . . judges (who may be no better than the original protest committee). That decision can be appealed again - to the US Sailing Appeals Committee where it's reviewed by . . judges (a group currently led by Dave Perry and includes Dick Rose). The buck usually stops there.
But along the way, you should know that
Facts Found
in a protest cannot be appealed (RRS 70.1). Decisions of International Juries cannot be appealed (RRS 70.5). Typically events that determine a qualifier to a higher event have very limited appeal rights (specified in the NOR/SIs and must be approved in advance by US Sailing) (RRS 70.5(a)).
How about this Protest Committee scenario - a very domineering Chief Judge overrules one (or more) subordinate judges in the decision and then the decision is overturned on appeal. Should the subordinate judges be penalized for that? (I've seen this happen more than once.)
Like I said, appeals of decisions made by a protest committee of which a judge is but a part are a poor metric of that judge's capability.
You're confusing entities here, Dave. Judges don't issue decisions - Protest Committees do. Usually there's more than one judge on a protest committee.
When a decision is appealed, it first goes to the Regional Sailing Association Appeals Committee made up of . . . judges (who may be no better than the original protest committee). That decision can be appealed again - to the US Sailing Appeals Committee where it's reviewed by . . judges (a group currently led by Dave Perry and includes Dick Rose). The buck usually stops there.
But along the way, you should know that
Facts Found
in a protest cannot be appealed (RRS 70.1). Decisions of International Juries cannot be appealed (RRS 70.5). Typically events that determine a qualifier to a higher event have very limited appeal rights (specified in the NOR/SIs and must be approved in advance by US Sailing) (RRS 70.5(a)).
How about this Protest Committee scenario - a very domineering Chief Judge overrules one (or more) subordinate judges in the decision and then the decision is overturned on appeal. Should the subordinate judges be penalized for that? (I've seen this happen more than once.)
Like I said, appeals of decisions made by a protest committee of which a judge is but a part are a poor metric of that judge's capability.
good point.
ISAF has reports that get filed for major events, and I believe that there has been discussion of doing something similar at US Sailing.
Again, talking to those committees is your best option at this point.
Mike
Is there a continuing education requirement for judges? Do they re-certify after a certain time period, or if they do not exercise their authority (act as PRO) a minimum number of regattas per term (year, two year, etc)?
The few judges and PROs I've sailed under seemed very qualified, but I've never had to walk into the room...
and would the steeplechase thing be a possible reason why we typically choose to sail under RRS in the first place? Had that not been settled amicably (eventually), I would certainly use that as the poster child for having a universally accepted ruleset and accountability protocol..
Yes. Every judge must re-certify every four years:
- Take the two-day class
- Pass the exam
- Be knowledgeable and experienced in the running of races and have performed in a major role on the water in at least three U.S. events during the last four years
- Be an active member of protest committees. In the last four years,served on protest committees for at least three years and chaired at least three hearings at a regatta of significant importance to the region; served on juries in at least three events in the US at the interclub, regional or national level.
The re-certification process for Race Officers is similar, except that for National Race Officer re-certification, you need to have a personal
on-the-job
review by another NRO or IRO.