Let's hear some opinions....

Tommy...

Ceases to amaze me that the RC's will conduct a "race" in drifter conditions. As you said...it's luck not skill. You gota have the energy source to propel the boats. I'm all for the 5 knot minimum (at EACH mark) for racing. On the other side of the spectrum...should there be a top end limit?

Johnny Escalade

If you start down that road then you would also have to include a maximum... so that results are not skewed by crew weight over skill.

There are racers, for whatever reason, who excel in light air conditions. Same for heavy air. Some even excel at both extemes while appear just average in the middle.

The wind range racing of the Americas Cup has lead to a narrowing of the boat technology and quite frustrating weather watching. Seems like a bad model to follow.

I know nothing about racing at any level, but I always found that ghosting took a lot more skill and concentration on my mono. Fun? Not so much. Where does luck play into it?

The Tornado class will not start races if it's below 6 knots or above 25. A race will be abandoned if the wind drops below 3 knots for 15 minutes, or if the wind shifts significantly and precludes fair sailing.

Ref: http://www.tornado.org/html/rules.asp , Appendix C.

I think these are sensible rules.. (I dont know if a protest on a significant wind shift that precludes fair sailing have won yet)

I have seen many events that would have NO racing going on under those rules. And folks come from a long way to these events.., to go home without a race at all would be terrible.
And even in dice-throwing winds, it seems the top sailors always still manage to do well.

By using those types of guidelines for the RC, you can easily paint yourself into a corner. A couple of years ago I was PRO for the Tornado Nationals (I think that was what they were) in Biscayne Bay.
The wind started out pretty decently and I set a weather mark at around 1.25 miles, but the wind dropped off to just above the miniumum of 5 knots. We were constantly taking readings to insure we stuck to the rules.
In order to make the race stick, I shortened the next weather mark to around 1/2 mile. The first boat rounded the weather mark and made the finish line when the air totally dropped to under the minimum.
Under their rules guidelines I could not abandon the race at that point -- we already had a finisher. And there was now a time limit for the rest of the boats.
Typical of the class, most of the fleet asked for redress. I appeared in a hearing before a jury and explained that I would have loved to abandoned the race, but the class rules themselves made it impossible for me to do so. The jury ruled in favor of keeping the race.
I conducted the race exactly to the classes standards.., and they were all ticked off about it.
Sorry, I did not write the rules, just lived by them.

Now, this is exactly what you can get yourself into.., and it is not a pretty picture. Best bet is to be sure you have a PRO that will use his/her own discretion and make good decisions so everyone is happy.

Rick

Uh, I dont think that's possible, making everyone happy

At a 5 day national event there should never be a race run in under 5 knots. At a weekend regatta you may be forced to do so in order to get any racing in. At the F18's they have 5 races in, they have a throw out, why have bad races. As far as too much wind. If the chase boats can keep up and everyone is safe, then race. I found at the 16's in CA that the wind and waves together are more of an issue. Also have seen teams from PUR,MEX,BRA,AUS have no trouble with the 20+ knots and big waves.

One of the conditions that we accept as sailors is the fact that at certain times there just might not be raceable wind. If you race long enough you WILL get skunked eventually. Alter Cup 2004 is a prime example.

I have no problem driving/flying across the counrty or where ever and then having to hang out to wait for wind. Hey it happens.

Don't frog up a series by being desperate to get "anything" in. Garbage races are just that and I would not go back to a Clubs venue if they consitantly run races in zeyphers (sp) I feel that it shows poor race management!!!

As far as it taking more skill to sail in light air, all I say is that it takes great skill to consistanly sail fast in all conditions.

Check out the Windgate Video on the site it is hilarious

Now if we could just get some scores.........

I am huge proponent in favor of the 5 knot min to start a race.

If the conditions deteriorate after the start, I also feel it is the race committees responsability to try and complete any race that was fairly started. If this involves the complete shut down of the wind they may not be able to do this, but if it is dying or drasticaly vering, they can change or shorten course and still salvage the effort that has already been put out by the competitors.

My take anyway

Matt

Holding a race in less than 4-5kts is like having a car race without gasoline.

I agree that longer events (3+ days) should have a minimum (and possibly a maximum), but short events (1-2 days), should not be under such a limit. Sometimes it takes a little more than luck to win in light air....

Oh yeah, I guess Spring Fever would be out for the most part then? (except for the last day!)

Trey
N20 314
Layline Rigging
www.velocitysailing.com

Hey guys, you sail races to test your abilities as a "sailor" first and foremost. That means taking the greatest advantage of the PREVAILING conditions to actually sail a prescribed course in the shortest time. The fact that there are other boats on the course is in reality, superfluous. The "true sailor/racer" treats all other boats on the water as nothing more than obstacles to keep clear of, or at best, wind indicators, and not really as "competition" as the only thing that you are really "competing" against is your own natural ability to make errors on the water. Every race should be a personal test in eliminating the errors that you do make, with the object of eventually sailing the "perfect race" Of course, no matter how well you do sail, you know that "if only I had done this" or "if only I had done that" you would have sailed a much better race (even if you are the best sailor ever created by god you could never sail the “perfect race”) If you eliminate more of your mistakes than everyone else sailing eliminates their’s, then you naturally win as a by product, but “winning” in itself should not be the source of your satisfaction with a race that you happened to “cross the line first” in, satisfaction should come from your successfully improving your “on the water abilities” (become truly “in tune” with nature)
To even dream of becoming a truly competent sailor you have to be able to take every advantage offered in EVERY wind and water condition that it is possible to race in, and you can never do this if you set limits to the type of conditions that you are prepared to test yourself in (unless you actually are god), - if you never race in wind strengths below 5 knots you will never be ABLE to race in winds below 5 knots.
All the sailors that I have met that complain about races held in 5 knots minus, have generally been guys that sail poorly in the light airs and more often than not will not persevere in those races, but pull out instead part way through and complain about the race committees decision to continue the race. You never hear the guy that won that light air race complain about the conditions, he was usually concentrating to much on successfully keeping his boat moving towards the finish line to even think about complaints.

I'm all for not having a race in under 5 knots of wind. However, as it pertains to this event, we had 5 knots of breeze. The RC was overthrown by testimony from sailors because the RC couldn't prove there was over 5 knots from an electronic instrument - and THAT I have a problem with. We had a very fair race. Boats went left, boats went right. There were no major holes and we all gathered again at the mark with neither side showing more strength. We split with two boats at the C Gate and came right back together in the same positions at Amark. The SI's state that (and I'm paraphrasing) there should be 5 knots of wind at the start of the race as determined by the race committee. The race was tossed because the race committe couldn't prove that there was 5 knots or better and the 7 teams in the first (closed) protest testified that they experienced less breeze. The times around the race course were very close to what a race run in 5 knots would be (there was also current to be considered). The scary thing is that the sailors testimony was taken above that of the RC. The end result of our file for redress, to have the race reinstated, was that we were told that the RC couldn't prove that there was more than 5 knots of breeze. What they failed to consider is that he couldn't prove that there was less either. Once more, "as determined by the race comittee" - didn't say they have to have a digital indicator. They took a digital reading as a breeze was coming down the bay 15 minutes before and felt they had it at the start. What more do you want? 22 teams felt that it was a good race (and not all of them come out ahead if the race is reinstated) - 7 did not and they won.

Darryl, I just saw your post and I could not agree more. The sailors that won that race were predominantly lake sailors and knew how to sail it and keep speed. I also find it horendous that I hear the decision to throw out the race also used the current standings in that most of the folks that were in the top (and were protesting) did poorly in that particular race...hence they determined that it couldn't have been a fair race. GRRRRRR. Naturally, I'm upset because it really hurt me in the standings - I had a 5th in that race. I attribute most of our performance to the fact that the last three regattas I've been to had LESS wind that that. We established that nobody complained to any race committee on the course during the start, the general recall, the restart, any rounding, or the finish. Only later, after hitting the beach (after the finish) did the complaints begin.

Jake when a sailor’s ONLY concern in racing is "winning at all costs” they become confused about the true meanings of sailing and create complications for every one. If winning was all there was to sailing races then "all becomes fair" down to deliberate use of the "rules" to purposely position themselves to disadvantage other sailors just because they could, and the classic when they don't do well (or win) "lets take it to the jury room and get the race thrown out". Sailors who are not prepared to stand or fall simply by their own sailing abilities really do miss out on the true joys that are there for any one who wants to sail and to understand what sailing is really all about. I feel sorry for people who confuse yacht racing with simply winning. Everyone who sails in a yacht race, regardless of where they finish, should “be a winner”
There is something very “Zen” about sailing races.

Darryl,

I couldn't agree more. Furthermore, races should not be thrown out because some competitors misunderstood the SIs or briefing, or in the case of low wind, simply disagree with the RC. I've noticed that it is the 'top' sailors who will protest under these conditions. I can never see how their complaint stands up, when half the competitors sailed as instructed, or made it round the course, etc. I also dislike the 'anything goes' attitude to winning - it is about doing the best you can on the course, not what you can achieve by arguing.

Yes please and minimum crew weights while we're at it. Those little biddy light weight crews are always getting lucky when there’s no wind.

Depends. If it is light wind with chop, often the heavyweight crews will do better than the lightweight crews.

Sorry Tom, but I disagree about the 5k limit. There are too many weekend regattas where we would be waiting for the ideal conditions...I know you said the big National Events, but I doubt if these could ever be rescheduled too.

The other end is the maximum winds. Is it fair to start a race in 25k plus?

Wyatt

I disagree, there should only one consideration. Is the wind "relatively" stable in direction and strength. Strength has nothing to do with it.

This is the typical argument of the boys that like big winds. However for some reason it is always the same crews that do well in the light stuff, they must have consistantly more luck than other crews, right ?

Light wind sailing is an art form in it self. You can't just blast off to a side and cover the fleet. You have to spot the favoured sides and spot the currents. You'll have to look for clean air alot more than in medium winds and just be really good in trimming your. All very much skill related things, luck is only linked to unexpected major windshifts or the wind dying/building on you or your opponent. When the wind situation across the course is stable (and this allows the existance of a favoured side) than the final results are strongly skill related and fair.

Personally I'm a sailor from a heavy winded area but I've learned to appreciate the lighter winds alot more of the years. Simply because skill is so much more important in these conditions.

Wouter

In the Tornado event I talked about in an earlier post, there were four or five teams that insisted the wind was less than five, but we recorded the wind speeds constantly and kept a record on the score sheet.
Then they argued that we were taking wind speeds from the top of the RC boat's mast and winds speeds up there were much higher than on the water. Geesh! <img src=

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In this case the RC won and the race stood. We ran the race according to the class' rules.., and suddenly they did not like their own rules.
Rick

I was being facetious however; in winds less the 5kt (all things being equal) I'd tend to disagree. Would you care to elaborate on your assertion.. Very best.

The extra weight tends to keep the boat moving through sea irregularities where as lighter weight tend to "bob" more and the boat slows more often. In really light weather, a heavy weight crewed boat tends to "carry" through a tack better due to their inertia, where as a light weight crew can often "pull up" half way through the tack.

Tom,

Yes I agree. 5kt min for a 3+ day event. IMHO, I would rather sit on the beach and have a beer (or 12) with you than sit and bake all week on a hot boat.

Upper limit. Well.... I'm a bad one to ask a/b that. I'll go out if it's blowing dogs off the chains (and like it!). I had a "fairly accomplished" skipper tell me, "I can't trust you to decide when to go out and when not to... you're never scared and will go out in anything" He was right.

Hi Tom et al,

Sue sailed a hell of a race, so did alot of guys and girls(Sandra), and the competition was top notch here. No doubt light air sailing is a bitch, but its part of sailing, especially where I live in the "Armpit" of the South. 100 degrees, 100% humidity and you can always bet on "light and variable".
My opinion on light air would be with you, keep the 5 kt rule, unless it looks like a light and variable weekend, or even that forecast for a week long event.
My problem with the race that was thrown out is that the PRO said he beieved it was 5kts, and nobody complained on the starting line that it was not 5 kts, everyone was moving around, battens popping over by themselves, no protest at the start, everyone just glad to get a race in after a long day of nothing.
After the race, when the positions were shook up, then you hear the complaints of it was too light to start. Who had an advantage? It was a clean race sailed within the time limit, no one left in any holes bobbing around with no air, so we throw it out on a technical point?
I think there should have been a protest or someway to ask up front before the race started if these protesting boats felt there was not 5 kts, not when you see how you did.
This is my humble opinion, and I was there, and I feel there was 5 kts of wind at every mark. The SI's clearly stated "5kts as determined by the RC".I sail in 5kts every weekend, I think I am a good judge of light and variable, and that is my how I voiced my opinion in redress.
I dont think the RC or the competitors did anything wrong, it was perfectly legal to protest the way they did, but I do beleive it was poor sportsmanship.
Again, this is just my opinion, and its way biased.

Thanks to Tracie, the RC, Mark Santorelli, Brian Karr and crew, and all the new friends I made there this week, I had a blast, hope to see you next year(with wind!!!!)

Let me ask the question,

Should the onus be on the RC to prove that there WAS at least 5 knots of wind, or should it be on the protesters to prove that there was NOT.

I know what I think.

If the RC decide that the conditions are suitable to race, there should be no futher discussion. I.e. in my view the RC's decision is final. The sailors can decide whether thay want to race, but not question the RC's decision just because it does not suit them!

That's how the SI's were worded too. I'm still in a bit of shock that the race wasn't reinstated.

If the SI's say 5 knots as determined by the RC, then the RC needs to have a way to confirm and record thier desicion as Rick did. I recall reading in the BLOG that the RC read 4.7 knots before that race. If that is the case then the race should be thrown out per the rules. It's about expectations. This past weekend we sailed at a small mountain lake. We know going in that it will be light and shifty and no one would even consider questioning the RC.
At a week long National event(in the ocean) there is no reason to push it when there already had been 5 complete races when the race in question occured. As for heavy teams having an advantage in heavy air, thats old school. The best H16 teams are at minimum weight and do the best in all conditions. The sailors have figured out how to rig and drive the boats in all conditions.

thats pure crap.

if the RC conducts the race, then the protesting body needs to present irrefutable evidence that the race violated some kind of rule.

Just like in the legal system, the onus is on the prosecuter to provide enough evidence to convict.