If you are honestly trying to compare the stiffness of an F18 infusion to a Marstrom Tornado, you should see somebody and get your head checked.
Sincerely, somebody who has sailed and won on both.
Man, you Tornado guys have some wadded panties.
Pressure Drop:
Have you done any sailing on a Nacra 17 or F18 Infusion?
LOL, In other words superior construction is a minor thing and has no value. Sounds like a used car salesman but you sell Nacras right?
I'm in the camp that the Olympic boat should be made the best way possible like the Tornado was just because that did control costs. There were Tornado's that did multiple campaigns, I don't think the N17, (or even the Viper), would be up to that task. Both boats are built well, but they aren't a Marstrom Tornado as far as build quality goes. If you're replacing a $25k platform an average of once a year, thats more than double the cost of the T just on one campaign.
Just my $.02
there has been crazy inflation in the cost for materials and shipping since the days of the Olympic T campaigns
so are you pro a $50-60 N17 (or other brand) for Olympic class?
“There's no way to work in these waters, where you are literally neck deep in faeces in some places, and not be afraid of the health effects.
Show me the Olympic athlete who's going to have the courage to get into waters like these,” ecology professor Ricardo Freitas told the AP."
http://www.sportbusiness.com/sportb...
Better stay on the boat then...
so are you pro a $50-60 N17 (or other brand) for Olympic class?
I agree - comparing the costs of a yester-year Tornado to a current modern boat is not apples to apples. A Marstrom Tornado built today would probably be closer to $40 or $50k before you start customizing and testing sail after sail (since sails were also open).
Still cheaper.
News Flash,Olympic Campaigns cost a lot of Money.The boat itself is the least expensive aspect of it.
It is like the book on how to be a multimillionaire,Chapter one starts with
After you make your first million
. Let,s paraphrase,
how to become an Olympic Sailor
,Chapter one after you become a millionaire....
For the (maybe) three teams that chose to reuse their boats. I don't have stats but I find it hard to believe that most teams didn't chose to refresh their boat platforms and that only a select few were using their platforms for multiple event cycles.
Tony, I have been on a 17 once. I have been on several infusions more times than I care to, or even could count.
Jake,
(maybe) three
seems like a pretty confident estimate.
The fact of the matter is that you get what you pay for. Serious teams are on the water hundreds of days per year. A Marstrom platform has a considerable competitive life advantage over anything built to a lesser standard.
Someone else brought up the open sailplan of the T costing more. Earlier this year, the class voted in one design sails and locked the price for 4 years on said sails.
Even taking construction quality out of the picture, the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base. Are you really excited about foils that can't actually foil?
Maybe we should stop kicking ourselves in the nuts and be happy there is a multihull in 2020, do you really think the TV viewer [ and therefore the IOC] gives a **** about which brand boat these guys/girl sail on? It should be spectacular [which this boat is more than the T]and attract young people -read girls- better for TV [which it does better than the T]
all you whiners should realize that this behavior [bitching- this is better then that and/or vice versa] made the multihull disappear from the OG in the first place
lighten up and be happy our youth sailors can have an olympic dream on a multihull [oh it does suit youngsters better than the T as well]
Jake,
(maybe) three
seems like a pretty confident estimate.
...
Ok...so what is it? You guys are claiming that it was more cost effective because the boats are so awesome that you could reuse them indefinitely (I loosely paraphrase ;-). How many teams actually used their platforms for more than one Olympic cycle?
all you whiners should realize that this behavior [bitching- this is better then that and/or vice versa] made the multihull disappear from the OG in the first place
lighten up and be happy our youth sailors can have an olympic dream on a multihull [oh it does suit youngsters better than the T as well]
+1
Jake,
(maybe) three
seems like a pretty confident estimate.
The fact of the matter is that you get what you pay for. Serious teams are on the water hundreds of days per year. A Marstrom platform has a considerable competitive life advantage over anything built to a lesser standard.
Someone else brought up the open sailplan of the T costing more. Earlier this year, the class voted in one design sails and locked the price for 4 years on said sails.
Even taking construction quality out of the picture, the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base. Are you really excited about foils that can't actually foil?
I've only raced against a T in one regatta. It was the Thai Catamaran regatta just prior to the selection trials for the mixed multi. The T was being between around the course consistently by the Carbon 20s, and most of the time by F16s and F18s. Not sure the level of the team racing the boat, but I wasn't all that impressed. The boat looked very dated next to the new designs.
I just say have marstrom build the N17.
One design sails doesn't save much either. Just means they buy a bunch of sails until they find one they like. I've owned and sailed a ton of new sails, they're never the same, even out of the same loft.
I thought the IOC/ISAF discussions pointed to those aspects as being somewhat negative... The goal was to get more female and/or mixed teams in Olympic sailing. If that was truly the concern then the first three items you indicate would possibly eliminate some smaller (stature/weight/strength) teams.
So the IOC probably sat at a table and said
what's going to put butts in the seats (generating TV and attendance revenue)?
and came up with a smaller platform, offered mixed gender format, and probably made some other changes.
So, after that, I believe sailors chose boats from an assorted (not unlimited, mind you) bunch of candidates. Since they seemed to like a smaller, less durable, faux-foiling design, let them run with it...
In my mind it's similar to the Star, laser, Etchell, Soling and other designs - they float but it's a b*tch to sail fast. None of those designs are the pinnacle of sailing (or technology), none typically last more than one olympic cycle. That they are still reasonably popular OD classes is a testament to their fleet organizers.
As for the platform, is the N17 going to take the world by storm? Doubt it. The T didn't (although it was close..).
Would I (non-olympic hopeful) consider an N17? Nope. For the same reasons I wouldn't consider a Star, Laser, or Etchell: Not my cup of tea.
If you think the cats got worked in the olympic selections; compare them to the boards. Those RSXboards are heavy, poorly shaped dogs compared to a real race board that we would make on Maui. So at least cat sailors didn't get roto-molded cats for the olympics.
not that there is anything wrong with it
The sailors had a voice….at least in that aspect of the overall issue of only 1 cat with a mandated mixed crew when all the while a committee is creating custom girl models of various monohull designs to insert in the allotment of medals. Ironically the mixed crew aspect being unique, with a large potential for human interest stories, will likely get cats into the news more than past olympics.
49er medal race 2008 They are getting worked. Could be their course was in a rougher part of water? http:/
Tornado medal race 2008 They are charging. http:/
Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.
well done nacra <img src="<>/cry.gif" alt="cry" title="cry" height="15" width="15" />
At least it makes it easy to drop the sail at the end of the day.
well done nacra <img src="<>/cry.gif" alt="cry" title="cry" height="15" width="15" />
No quality control.
For the (maybe) three teams that chose to reuse their boats. I don't have stats ldbut I find it hard to believe that most teams didn't chose to refresh their boat platforms and that only a select few were using their platforms for multiple event cycles.
Would we suppose that the tornado teams would use the same boat for the 4 year campaign? I would guess the N17 teams might go through more than one. Just a thought, in either case the boat is the cheap part.
well done nacra <img src="<>/cry.gif" alt="cry" title="cry" height="15" width="15" />
![[Linked Image]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0E7f_3p_Vas/TeXvX2AqitI/AAAAAAAABHA/MvnO9bQUI_A/s1600/FacePlant.jpg)
This is what I've come to expect out of Nacra quality control; to be fair they do appear to making an honest effort to fix it, but won't be doing so on my dime.
Jake,
This isn't the time or the place to burst your bubble. Suffice to say the only real in-house design work 2013/14 Nacra does is on the sails and rig, and even that isn't really Nacra, rather it's Performance Sails.
Again, none of it matters, it's the boat that the teams are stuck with for the next 7 years. I just hope the QC issues get sorted and teams don't have problems with their equipment that prevent them from training.
Build quality of the Olympic Equipment has been evaluated by ISAF for every class in light of ISAF's number one goal... growing the number of nations that compete for Olympic slots. Boats like the laser and 470 have known issues but they are affordable. A pricey but bullet proof boat (Tornado) is not the objective for gear selection. ISAF dumped the europe dinghy for the laser radial for this reason. The cost of campaigning is large relative to the cost of the equipment but the entry costs dominate the thinking. ISAF nations have decided the build quality versus cost issue... The Nacra 17 is good enough.... (same as H16, AHPC F16, Hobie Tiger)
Once upon a time... the catamaran world looked to the Olympic Tornado for much of the innovation that trickled down to the other classes and the boat was refined over and over again. This philosophy caused lots of competitive problems for ISAF as sailors innovated within the class rule and the Olympic playing field tilted in ways viewed as unfair. The philosophy changed... So now they want a boat that is completely cooked and one design, controlled by ISAF and their contract. The ISAF solution... you can't drill another hole in the Nacra 17. You also can't fix things.
Given the uber one design mindset.... the mistake made by the catamaran selection sailors and Catamaran committees was picking a boat that was not tested (two prototypes made)... but the N17 looked like it was high tech, cutting edge (curved boards,)designed by an AC cup designer. Two years of testing would have made the fixes needed (see Bert) clear. Unlike the rest of the olympic sailing world.... we bit on the bright shiny object.... Meanwhile, the rest of the world will use the same equipment in 2020 that they have for the last 20 years... So, fixing the boat mid stream is a political problem that ISAF and Nacra have decided to delay until after Rio. It is a failure and for the sailors... Well... it is what it is...and the game ends in three years to win their countries selection process.
The long term issue is the MIXED discipline for Multis.... Obviously the plan to migrate from mixed to mens and womans cats failed with barely a wimper and multihulls are almost unique in the entire Olymmpic games with a mixed sport. The powers that be should have stayed with Open or argued that all double handed sailing classes should be mixed or open. (470 and 48ner). We failed at the politics of this as well.
PS, Jake, Roman Hagarra (Aut) used his Tornado for three games and won medals.
link to 2013 texel vid
http:/
looks like at least 20knts. Only 1 F18 beat the first N17. Nacra has a very strong presence at that regatta, being a Dutch company at the worlds largest cat race held in Holland.![[Linked Image]](http://i41.tinypic.com/ieotj5.gif)
well done nacra <img src="<>/cry.gif" alt="cry" title="cry" height="15" width="15" />
This is what I've come to expect out of Nacra quality control; to be fair they do appear to making an honest effort to fix it, but won't be doing so on my dime.
Jake,
This isn't the time or the place to burst your bubble. Suffice to say the only real in-house design work 2013/14 Nacra does is on the sails and rig, and even that isn't really Nacra, rather it's Performance Sails.
Again, none of it matters, it's the boat that the teams are stuck with for the next 7 years. I just hope the QC issues get sorted and teams don't have problems with their equipment that prevent them from training.
bust my bubble
? WTF? All we're talking about is if the infusion is a stiffer platform than the I20 and it is hands down. To quote my southern kin folk
You guys are eat up wit it
.
added to which...you're not going to catch me defending Nacra's quality control.
well done nacra <img src="<>/cry.gif" alt="cry" title="cry" height="15" width="15" />
This is what I've come to expect out of Nacra quality control; to be fair they do appear to making an honest effort to fix it, but won't be doing so on my dime.
Jake,
This isn't the time or the place to burst your bubble. Suffice to say the only real in-house design work 2013/14 Nacra does is on the sails and rig, and even that isn't really Nacra, rather it's Performance Sails.
Again, none of it matters, it's the boat that the teams are stuck with for the next 7 years. I just hope the QC issues get sorted and teams don't have problems with their equipment that prevent them from training.
bust my bubble
? WTF? All we're talking about is if the infusion is a stiffer platform than the I20 and it is hands down. To quote my southern kin folk
You guys are eat up wit it
.
Sam,
After what Jake had to do to fix the
quality control issues
on his Infusion, I seriously doubt you're bursting any bubbles about his view of it. The infusion process alone should make the 18 stiffer than the vinylester hand layup of the I/N-20.
That's a great result for a boat that's only been on the water for a short time, were the boats out of the box or did they have to do some alteration to the boats before the race?
http:/
looks like at least 20knts. Only 1 F18 beat the first N17. Nacra has a very strong presence at that regatta, being a Dutch company at the worlds largest cat race held in Holland.
Jake,
Certainly the Infusion is stiffer than the N20, but who engineered that layup? I bet it wasn't an in-house Nacra engineer (maybe a good thing?). Regardless, the lack of quality control on the process has me asking a lot of questions. I don't want to see N17's failing on teams because the factory isn't taping the seams on the outside after joining the hulls. That is all.