Mark,
How blind can you be?
Portsmouth was just open about how they worked the numbers. The schrs and texel just hide the politics behind a calculation.
It does not take any time at all to look at the calculation and see it flawed in its logic as almost every variable is inherently self limiting by nature. Then a little history on the changes continually made to it clearly show politics behind the scenes.
Don't have to check with the dealer... more N17's... duh! We've all been around long enough to pretty much know how this is going to play out. The big plus is more lady skippers.
I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...
Mike
Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.
Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.
Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.
Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.
Or a 4:1 traveler. I forget get nothing boatless boy.
and a 25:1 mainsheet for my delicate hands.
I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...
Mike
Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.
Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.
Ding, I was with you right up until your conclusion. Could have done without that visual imagery as well. Going back to sticking my head in the sand, right after I get done hurling up lunch...
Mike
I'm actually really serious about actual numbers of F17's in the country. From my sources it is less than or equal to 30. I know how many were in Miami, and the same number of F18's exists at one sailing site in Florida. So again more b.s being spewed on the interwebs.
Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).
Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.
Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).
Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.
No mention of the skill sets involved Sam that kinda has something to do with it. Also in super light(ghosting constidions) you know you can be right next someone and you can get something and they don't.
If you think you're going to walk away from a min weight Falcon running at 250 lbs of crew weight in the soft stuff and the team has the skills to make it go you are in denial. If platform weight doesn't matter why is a portion of the F16 class pushing to increase the min weight of the platform? Can you guess which portion?
Platform weight matters Sam, ask yourself do you want a heavy F18 or one that is close to or at min weight? Why did Jill deaply discount the heavy C2's? Weight doesn't matter and handicap racing works... they call that a twofer.
Dave sure I would like a lighter boat but guess what we finished in front of a minimum weight Falcon F16 with less than 250 lbs of crew weight on board in the same race. They were 1-up though, maybe not a fair comparison. And yes it was a ghost race so not a very fair situation. We generally finish in front of him as long as we keep it upright. My SCHRS thoughts are based on a range of conditions and a range of sailors. Handicap racing is what it is, no ones favorite but you play the cards you're dealt.
I have no idea what my Infusion weighs, it could be light it could be heavy, nothing I can do about it now. The nut on the tiller matters first, 5lbs of extra platform weight isn't going to hurt you unless you are playing the game at the very very top. If you think otherwise you are just looking for an excuse.
Of course those boats would be discounted, but that doesn't mean they would slow the average sailor down one bit.
I would really like to get my hands on one of those boats.
OK... why don't you tell us the consipiracy theory de jour!
Can't... stop...looking... My eyes! My eyes!
Since there is clearly no hope of stopping this train, can anyone tell me why Portsmouth uses time on time, while PHRF uses time on distance? I need pros and cons of each. Data tables and graphs would really help too.
Mike
Since there is clearly no hope of stopping this train, can anyone tell me why Portsmouth uses time on time, while PHRF uses time on distance? I need pros and cons of each. Data tables and graphs would really help too.
Mike
PHRF actually has formulas for both time on time and time on distance. My club uses time on time for PHRF.
PHRF Time on distance.... is default. People understand secs per mile... They know they their rating and the course distance and can figure the result in their head.
PHRF Time on time is used where current is a big factor on the course.... The rating is for the boat.. if the magic carpet is moving all boats at 1 knott extra....the rating is not accurate..
Obviously, you guys completely missed the dripping sarcasm in my last post...
Mike
I highly doubt that, from what I saw the N17s are very fast downwind especially in light to moderate conditions (which I'm guessing Miami has).
When the breeze was light the Vipers were killing the 17's around the course, The moderate stuff is when it was even, Joseph and I got a chance to both get on the 17s when the breeze had picked up and that is when they excelled, leaving most of the F16's in the dust.
Then again, we were doing stadium racing...Shifty breeze going anywhere from 5-18 knots.
The 17s where on pace during the pre Texel course racing taking 2nd and 3rd.
http://rotserver.mondriaanict.nl/IIS/finishlists/tdo2013/index.ht m" title="httpwwwroundtexelcomresultsaspinfoidhttprotservermondriaanictnlIISfinishliststdo2013indexhtm" target="_blank"> http://www.roundtexel.com/results.a...
I would really like to get my hands on one of those boats.
In one sentence you say
duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted
. You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.
I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?
In one sentence you say
duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted
. You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.
I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?
Anyone that buys anything new wants it to be perfect, or they want a discount. I am sure that even you can understand that.
Do you notice the boat speed difference with a few water bottles aboard?
Seller disclosure, that all depends on many things. Who is buying or selling, how old the boat is at that point and such. Do you weigh 2nd hand boats before making a purchase?
In one sentence you say
duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted
. You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.
I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?
Anyone that buys anything new wants it to be perfect, or they want a discount. I am sure that even you can understand that.
Do you notice the boat speed difference with a few water bottles aboard?
Seller disclosure, that all depends on many things. Who is buying or selling, how old the boat is at that point and such. Do you weigh 2nd hand boats before making a purchase?
I do ask what a boat I'm buying weighs (if it's in a weight limited class) or I try to find a way to weigh it before purchase. I'm not going to sweat a pound or two - but 10 pounds means I may have to take a hard look at the size of my waistline.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall the C2s in question to be 3-4lbs over.
If I understand it correctly,the hulls being discussed are being replaced
Correct.
Just received my new hull and my boat is now a pound under! Yay! Considering we sail at 385 it's nice to have a light boat but that being said we sailed worlds, catacup and several other events and it didn't bother me that the hull was 11 pounds heavy. And ahpc did the right thing by replacing our hull at no cost to me.
Rod Waterhouse had a heavy boat at worlds and he won a race. I don't know who else had heavy boats.
Just something to consider: if we want manufacturers to keep building these things, maybe we should stop doing things like taking away all hope of profit by demanding hulls be replaced over a few pounds, or refusing to buy them, especially if there is data that shows it doesn't matter on the race course. I doubt they sell enough of these to sustain that for very long.
Mike
Sorry but don't agree, sailing a boat which is 10-15kg heavier than the competition does matter.
Manufacturers need to get quality under control and not ship flawed products in the first place, weighing a hull before shipping can't be too hard right?
I disagree, especially in the case of the F18 where the weight limit is very high and the construction technique is low tech. The manufacturers know the weight limits of the class, so I think as a consumer it is reasonable for me to want my $25,000 toy to be on weight. The good news with a formula class is that there are options (Nacra, AHPC, Cirrus, PSA, Hobie, Edge, Phantom for the 18) and if one manufacturer fails to meet the standard of the class then racers will vote with their checkbooks, and they should!
Does a couple pounds on a 400 pound boat make a performance difference? Maybe not, but if the manufacturer can't get that right it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the boat's build quality. If you start letting quality slide because the manufacturer is doing a service to us sailors by building boats, it seems like a slippery slope to a poor product (maybe a Laser Performance built Laser or V15 is a good example).
The struggle for a manufacturer to 'build to Class weight' is tough, but the Lightning Class is a good example along with the Thistle Class. It is doable. Hobie keeps the standard by measuring boats. By weighing boats at the owner level, year to year checks on manufactured weight for those production lines can be maintained with the added drama of owner/factory interaction at their sanctioned regattas.
Formula boats are a different story - Do the new Falcon F 16s weigh the same as a NACRA F 16? The Viper is close to the middle, I believe.
The NACRA 17s, the Oly athletes will use in 2016 may weigh less than the current (2013) production line due to advances in composites and an impulse in production. A jag in global economy may even become the driving force down the road.
Let's hope NACRA strives to maintain quality control and to build the N 17 with less resin.
Best wishes to Tom and Fred Roland, wherever you might be...
Is not the Nacra 17 build locked in for the next 4 years, i.e there is a weight for the boat and that is it?? I don't see how the fleet provided for the 2016 games can be any different than the boats the sailors are using. Oh wait it's a class controlled by Nacra.