Jennifer, I thought you guys sailed very well in the heavier air, just a little more "saddle Time" and you guys will be up front as usual. Dave and Kathy sailed thier boat well also, its all new to us too. But we gave the Old Timers a good run!
David
I must admit that the superwing aluminium wing mast was us getting lucky without truly knowing it at the beginning of the class. Of course we thank AHPC for allowing other builders to use that section on their boats. It was one of the best things they ever did. It largely nipped the drive for carbon masts in the butt. I have the alu mast on my own boat and I can truly say that I'm very happy that I never got a custom carbon stick. It made my homebuild seriously cheaper and I really don't see any significant disadvantage of having one. The cross section shape taps into the extra performance very well without being made of carbon and the overall weight is very low. The Superwing mast is really a good piece of engineering not seen in 95 % of the other alu mast, I'm sorry but it is true.
Maugan is right.
Let me give you a quick comparison between the alu mast of an existing modern 17 foot singlehander and the superwing mast. Both are the same length and feature the exact same mainsail sail area.
Unspecified modern single hander
Length 8.5 mtr. with about 15 sq.mtr. mainsail area
Weight bare mast section About 17.0 kg / 8.5 mtr = 2.00 kg / mtr
main axis = About 0.155 mtr
small axis = About 0.085 mtr
Weight fully rigged = 19.8 kg (measured data)
Tip weight = about 9.05 kg
Superwing
length 8.5 mtr take typically about 15 sq. mtr. mainsail area
Weight bare mast section 13.5 kg / 8.5 mtr = 1.59 kg / mtr
main axis = 0.15 mtr
small axis = 0.063 mtr
Weight fully rigged = 15.5 kg
Tip weight = 7.3 kg
The lightest carbon mast for the F16's (the lighter ones broke)
length 8.5 mtr take typically about 15 sq. mtr. mainsail area
Weight bare mast section 9.8 kg / 8.5 mtr = 1.15 kg / mtr
main axis = About 0.15 mtr
small axis = About 0.063 mtr
Weight fully rigged = 12.0 kg
Tip weight = 5.5 kg
Note how the superwing is closer in overall weight to the minimal carbon mast than it is to an aluminium mast of its competition ? The fact that it is also of the same crossection shape as the carbon mast makes it very similar in behaviour.
Also note that it will take about (9.05 - 7.3) * 8.5 mtr / 1.2 mtr. = 15.5 kgs ! (= 34 lbs) more on the righting line to right the heavier alu mast over the superwing section. From Superwing to minimal carbon F16 mast is another 12 kg's. But getting back to the alu masts.
The mast of the single hander betrays its orgin with the 2 kg/mtr weight of the bare section. It is an F18 mast section that was cut down for use on the singlehander model. This is what is typically done with singlehanders. The builder takes the boards, mast, beams and other stuff of their much heavier F18 model and uses those to assemble an "optimal" singlehander. Often the area and length of the daggerboards are way off and the mast is too heavy and too stiff to allow proper depowering or gust responses.
One other thing to note is that the alu superwing rig is only 3.5 kg heavier than the carbon one. That on a total of mast , sails, stays, halyards, boom, trapezes etc of about 29 kg (64 lbs). I'm sure that lighter is always better but I'm not so sure wether saving 3.5 kg on 29 kg in total is worth its cost in terms of gained performance. On my own boat I have no troubles with dive recovery what so ever. And that is the point that is arguably most helped by a lighter rig.
One extra advantage of the alu mast is that you can let that one stay on the boat when it is parked somewhere waiting for you to return next weekend. No damage due to the wind vibriting it to bits or UV degradation. The first is a typical problem with very light carbon masts.
Wouter
I would like to address one problem with this year's Tradewinds that was mentioned on (I think) the F-16 forum: The fact that some people were not able to get to the race course on time for the first race on Saturday because of having to go to the skippers meeting and then having to get back to their launching area and hightail it out to the race course.
The problem this year was that boats were launching from at least five different locations. In addition to Gilbert's, boats were launching from Rowell's Marina and Neptune's Hideaway Motel. PLUS, the Sharks were launching from a private residence, and the Waves were launching from a homeowners park. The problem was compounded by the Jewfish Creek Bridge opening and delaying their return to their launch areas after the skippers meeting.
I anticipated all this might be a problem, but too late to figure out a way to handle it. The best way probably would have been to have the sailors at the remote locations not have to go to the skippers meeting in person, but for the race committee to have a "runner" go to all the launch sites and hand-deliver the information about order of starts and which classes were to sail which courses.
I thought about doing that myself, even though I was racing, too, but for all I knew, there may have been other launch sites, as well, that I was not aware of. So we just left it at as published so people were responsible for getting the information themselves.
Next year we may have less of a problem and more of a problem, because it sounds like Gilbert's will no longer be available at all for races, since their plans are to tear down the motel and build townhomes. Another regatta site lost!
We are working on another location for next year's Tradewinds Regatta. If we are successful, the whole event will be much more consolidated in one close area. Keep your fingers crossed, because it is going to be a tough sell for us.
In addition, Rick is right now down at the County Courthouse testifying in a jury trial lawsuit involving the Caribbean Club property, which used to be one of our primary launching areas for regattas. We have not been able to use that area for the past two years for any sailing events because of an electrocution accident (no death, but a hand had to be amputated) that involved the electric company's power lines and a Hobie 16. Both of us are actually on the witness list to testify that sailing has been going on at that site since at least the early 1980's.
Apparently, the electric company is claiming that if they had known there was a launching ramp there and if they had known sailboats ever launched there, they would have raised their wires higher across the front of that property.
I will let you know what happens with the lawsuit.
Hey now, I was able to right our Nacra F18 with aluminum mast, not only solo, but with my 200lb crew still on the windward hull high and dry! I weigh 170lbs. We had an onboard camera that would have captured most of it but the tape ran out 3 minutes before the capsize.
On a side note - I don't think winds ever reached 25knots while we were out there. It was more like 15 sustained with gusts to 20k...I usually get concerned about boat damage at 20k or better and I am either getting more comfortable with high wind or am wrong (which is certainly possible). Rick, do you have a record of windspeed for the end of Sunday?
From what I understand, there has been debate over the CF vs. Aluminum mast in the Tornado community. Most T drivers "try" several different masts until they find one that best "fits" their sailplan, style and weight. I believe this has something to do with the aluminum extrusion process.
With CF, it is said that they can actually design the mast to fit whatever profile the sailor wants, rather than having to experiment with several masts to find the best fit.
There have been a few comments that the F-18 aluminum mast is a bit too bendy, but I can't verify those comments, as I don't have an F-18.
If you're on your third CF mast, what happened to the first two? I've heard that I-20's break masts with spins up and too little mainsheet (or in distance races - no preventer on the rotation) or things of that nature. I would consider that more operator error than design issue. I would think that this would also damage an aluminum mast in the same situation.
Speaking of that, I've seen a handful of aluminum (Nacra 6.0) masts break in similar conditions.
If you're pitchpoling at speed, I'm not sure it would matter what your mast is made of, there's probably going to be some damage...
The first mast was due to a bad mast. The upper tang pulled out and down came the rig. It was not due easing the main too much. Cary may not know this but I was driving the boat that day. Not sure about mast #2.
Mary,
How bout smoke signals for the skippers meeting? Just teasin'!
They do call it a skippers meeting, skipper and crew do not have to attend, leaving one with the boat and the other to get the info. As long as the mast is up it can be a one man job....... I do it all the time.
How about assigning "launch place" captains and use mobile phone to relay any last information to the "launch place" captain who can then take it up in their local skippers meeting. Asking a few experienced sailors for this job and agreeing on a few guidelines should be enough.
Wouter
That would work also. The rules are usually similar to the last race. However, there is usually something that needs to be clarified with the inner outer or orange and red course or the pn classes sometimes get made at the last minute depending on when everyone gets registered! (my bad)
In retrospect, the skippers meeting is needed, we need to figger out how to get off the beach on time if we are not on ground zero.
Oh, and by the way... Rick, Mary, John, Oriel, great freakin job.... Very selfless and coool that you forgo the race to put it on. I will replace you next year in some form. Count on it.
E
I wish people would stop including me in their thanks, because I have nothing to do with organizing or helping with this regatta. I raced in it.
Linda Jo Nicholson is the one to thank. She comes down every year from Tampa Bay to help out by singlehandedly doing registration and all the scoring input on the computer.
I didn't even see anybody this year except when you guys were whizzing past me out on the water -- you were literally a blur.
As far as the problem of skippers meeting when there are various launch areas, that was a unique situation this year. I explained in an earlier post that Gilbert's probably will not even be available next year, so it's a moot issue.
And in future situations like this here or anywhere, an easier solution would be to just hold the skippers meeting earlier or start the races later.
[snip]
With CF, it is said that they can actually design the mast to fit whatever profile the sailor wants, rather than having to experiment with several masts to find the best fit.
This is true, but it must be added that the Tornado carbon mast is strictly one design, and the measurement rules are designed to keep it that way.
The intention of the class is that the masts shall be as good as identical (more identical than alu masts), and only certified builders may build them. So the scope for personalizing carbon masts on the Tornado is supposed to be zero, and that was one of the major points on the class ballot.
Just go by What Tom Korz Told Me, Was Sue's boat back then, I may have the order of breakage wrong. New mast(#3) is perfect, sure is a pain to keep those things free of damage, I for one love the I-20, but will be glad when I have an aluminum masted cat again.
Cary
Hey, Dave and Cary, you have been immortalized! The photo of your pitchpole made the FRONT page of the Keynoter, which is one of the biggest local newspapers in the Keys.
Is there a corresponding website Mary? 
We at the Seacats Will do ANYTHING to promote the sport of catsailing, even risking life, limb, and personal embarrassment. For those of you who followed the TYBEE 500 this year, we were the ONLY team that made the 1100PM news in Daytona Beach.
Cowboy Jake of Team Seacats got some recognition too, Due to his unique style of Riding the Hull in through the Surf Landings! (Actually a Daggerboard was stuck, but it made a good picture and the name stuck)
I hope the Keynoter got the Hi-Resolution version of the Picture before Rick pushed the Delete button.
Any chance of a copy of that issue finding its way up here after you're finished with it? Glad to pay for the postage/magazine price or whatever. Memories like that are priceless.
Thanks for the Info Mary. Sure would like to see a copy or that if there's any way.
Cary Palmer
1032 Jones Road
Irmo, SC 29063
Too bad about Gilberts, but they have to make money somehow, and I doubt multihull sailing is their key to financial success....
Despite Rowell's mildly tricky launch ramp, it's not too difficult to launch from there, and there's plenty of rigging room. Locked gates at night, too.
Maybe hold the skipper's meeting the night before at registration for the general stuff that's typically in the NOR/race instructions. Perhaps a restaurant/bar would accomodate this?
If not, is Rowell's close enough to the other areas to facilitate a skipper's meeting before first flag? At least there's no drawbridge to worry about...
Just some thoughts, as I know the logistics of holding a regatta is hard enough when things go smoothly!
I would like to address a couple of things here.
First of all, the skippers meeting was extremely brief realizing that boats were spread out -- didn't even have time to thank the sponsors and hosts and all that gobbly goop.., just ran straight into the classes and starting positions.
The meeting was over by 11:05
The start was scheduled for 12:00 but I saw that many of the boats had not arrived yet, so postponed for about 10 minutes. This gave all the boats, no matter where they launched, over an hour to get out there.
From Gilberts it was a broad reach to the course, and from other places it was either a beam reach or close reach in winds nearly 15 mph.
We were about 1.5 miles from shore.., so figure it out. If you headed for your boat and left promptly, you would have had no problem making your start.
The Sharks, which had the farthest drive from the skippers meeting, were at the meeting and all made it out on time. Sounds like some folk might have procrastinated.., not knowing that I like to start races ON TIME!
For Jennifer: Heavy air sailing is not all about weight.., a lot of it is technique. I remember in the Tornado I sailed with my 80 lb. son and I was around 190. Yet we were able to beat the Russians in heavy air with a crew weight over 350.
Being originally from Ohio, where light air sailing prevails, it took lots of time to learn the heavy air techniques and keep up with the bigger folks in the big stuff, but after plenty of practice, we were there.
Don't give up just yet.
And I must say the winds were pretty hefty. I had a wind guage with me that was obviously not reading correctly -- for the first race it was reading 22.5 knots average -- no way was it that much
I do believe the wind was nearing a steady 20 mph with gusts to 25 mph (not knots)by the last race -- folks might have noticed on the orange course that the leeward mark kept getting longer and longer. It made for a very good last race, but it was surely not intended -- of my three patrol boats, one was towing in a dismasted boat, the other was retrieving sailors separated from their boat, and the other never heard me calling.
When we retrieved the mark, the anchor, cinder block and all were intact.., just wasn't enough to hold the mark in place.
On the F16 Forum there was a complaint..,
Due to some very poor race decisions, we were put on the short course. The first day we didn't even have time to throw the spinnaker because as soon as it went up we were at the c mark. It was very upsetting and I did voice some displacer to race management about the decision.
and that complaint reached me at the skippers meeting. An F16 sailor complained that they should be on the same course as the Low Portsmouth boats, i.e., Marstrom 20s and CFR.
He failed to understand that we take all the Portsmouth boats and divide them from apples and oranges to apples and then oranges, by taking the total boats and dividing in half by the half.
While he may have thought his boat was fast, it was definitely in the higher numbers and because there are some other boats that are slower in that class, we had to run them around marks that were shorter, but the course was still just as long overall.., we gave them two extra legs.
Rick
Uhh , doesn't that mean that the tornado's will favour a more narrow weight range even more ?
I mean with alu mast you could buy several masts and find the one that suited your weight best. With the new carbon one you can't ! You are either at the optimal weight or you are not.
So what it the gain exactly in going for carbon except for having an selling argument ?
Aren't we supposed to make racing more equal for the realistic spread in crew weights. Sometimes I just don't understand why certain choices are made.
Wouter
Hi Wouter
The mast change was sold to the class for the follwing reason. At the Olympic level, well funded teams or consortia were beginning to spend huge sums developing alu masts that were not made available to the rest of the olympic fleet. The arms race in sticks and sails was going to get out of control and threatened to make the class unaffordable. This fact could threaten the class's olympic status. Since masts are generally not viewed as disposable items the decision was made to make to lockin a one design carbon mast and not have every team develop their own custom carbon mast. (They did this with hull and foil shapes a few years ago) I guess time will tell if one design carbon masts only work for a narrow crew weight. The alu masts are still legal (I think).
Word on the street is Rowell's is going to be Condo's next year too.
Well, then, I guess we will have to move the regatta to Cuba.
The Florida Key's RV resort (between Gilbert's and Rowell's) said that they probably wouldn't be open much longer either...they're closing soon but said they ~might~ be open next year. They're currently delayed because of permits and a lack of available contractors but...can you guess?....it will soon be condos too.
Mark,
[color] (I have repositioned the orginal bottom part of my past to the top. After the orginal top begins)
Best part however is the contradiction that is enclosed in the Tornado class reasoning.
EITHER the NON-uniformness of alu mast is a problem BECAUSE it allows certain crews to perform better because their particular mast bending suits their crew weigth and style better. But this means that the very UNIFORM carbon masts will do very much the same thing (because the crews are not uniform!).
OR the UNIFORM-ness of the carbon mast DOES NOT favour a narrow range crew weight and sailing styles and by equal measure the crews currently running through scores of alu mast in search of the best one are on a WILD GOOSE CHASE and there simply is NO arms race that needs to be prevented by going carbon.
I'm really anxious to see how anybody is going to reason himself out of that one !
No matter how you turn it you'll end up with the same situation as before but now at a few thousant dollars additional costs.
Seems to me that the Tornado class fell victom to a decision that was either not well thought through OR that has totally different (and secret) reasons as a foundation.
Maybe they are trying to make the Tornado a true OD class under ISAF pressure ? You know how ISAF and the olympic committee get off on OD classes.
Will be very interesting to see where this thing leads to
[color]*********
[color] Original top part of post
Mark,
The sail design arms race is far more costly then any mast arms race if either one ever really existed outside the minds of sailors that aren't competitive even if they tried. Marstrom as a boat is bloody expensive as well. Is it trully expected that by going for the MORE expensive Marstrom carbon mast more teams are going to buy and sail a Tornado ? Let along campaigning one in any serious manner. We all know were the true cost of a campaign or to be found and that is not in the masts.
This is just weird logic !
Don't wait just look at the A-cats. The answer is already around.
And even if for some reason the same thing is not seen in the Tornado class with the carbon mast the choice for One-design carbon is still weird.
For the cost that Marstrom is asking (3200 Euro) you can buy a set of aluminium masts and take the one that suits you best. In F16 class alu mast section go for retail 900 Aus = 550 Euro's. Extrusion (+additional costs like anodising, packing etc) of alu tornado masts is certainly not more expensive.
If the Tornado class was smart about it then they would measure each mast for bend and mark the masts according to stiffness and have the crews buy the mast that they think will suit them best. This way the sailors can get their purchase first time right and at a fraction of the cost. With this data the sailmaker can make the optimal mainsail and we'll have achieved greater equality in racing between crews of different weight by having crews sail with a mast/sail combo that is optimal for them.
It is a setup I'm actually considering for the F16 class. It has the best of both worlds
Ohh, so when say bundock finds an alu mast that has a better bending for his crew weight and style of sailing than he will go with that one and shot the OD mast setup right out of the sky as others will immediately copy him.
Wouter
You guys better start organising yourself to maintain a beach access or regatta sailing in the Keys will be over.
Now is the time to do so when the permits still need to be issues; After that has been done there is no way a local county can force a developper to build a public access location and they won't (no money there).
Seems to me like you guys are at 5 to 12.
Wouter
I thought it was impossible to get building permits in Key Largo? Did something change. It seems obvious to me that something must have changed to allow all of this new development?
Rick and Mary is there anywhere on public land you could hold this event? Where are we going to put in at next year for Steeplechase if Rowells and Gilberts is gone? Have you tried approaching some of the city planners/officials concerning this issue? If you add up all of the events you guys hold and all of the money spent over the course of a year by folks that come down just for your events you have a pretty good case for the local Gov. to help you out.
Lets see:
Steeplechase 120 people for average 3 days.
Tradewinds 150 people for average 3 days.
Hogsbreath
Miami-Key Largo
Wave Nationals.
....
Say per person per day they bring $120
You probably don't realize it but your stuff is probably worth about 500K to the local economy. Plus you are usually filling rooms during off peak times.
Put the numbers to some officials and see how they can help.
Mike Hill
Tiger #1520, I20 #747
The problem of water access is steadily a major happening everywhere. Too bad we didn't make much profit with Rick's Place or we would at least still have that.
The last time Mary talked to the new owner he said that all sailors were pigs and didn't want them around at all. Had to pull beer cans out of the bushes after they left.
Just a side bet, but I think Gilberts will about the same next year as they are now and we will still have it as a venue.
The reason they might get a permit is they now have 33 rooms. By building townhouses they will actually reduce the number.
At Rick's Place we were allowed to have 10 units, but only had 5. And we could not get a permit to add the units. Had we been able, we would probably still be there.
Dave just mentioned the word on the street about Rowells, but I have never heard that before. Hope they don't condo-ize too.
As for government access, there have no land on Blackwater Sound. They just bought the old Quay Restaurant property on Tarpon Basin and it has a bit of beachfront. However, it is a very small body of water and has a pretty nasty reef in the eastern part of it. that is the last basin you go through before Dusenberry Creek in the Steeplechase.
Mary and I will be looking around and working on a place for next year. We still have some high hopes.
Rick
Wouter: OD racing was one of the arguments, others were increased safety due to easier righting, stronger masts to stop all the breakages (quite a few masts have broken after the increase in sail area in 2000) and added performance due to lower platform weight.
About old masts.. Yes, they are still legal, but you are not allowed to change their tip weight (ask Mike about his lead corrector on the tip) or change their spreaders to the new streamlined ones like the one on the carbon stick.
About the arms race in sails.. The next ballot for the class will decide wether to allow molded sails.. (interestingly enough, even North Sails has toned down their marketing of molded sails lately)
Last, if safety was the big consern it was touted as in the last ballot, why was it not allowed to change standing rigging to syntetic materials instead. Lightweight crews could have righted the boats easier, and they could have been cut with a serrated knife in an emergency..
A quick search on this site, will bring back all the arguments made pro/con before the ballot last year.. The best was when Roland Gabler (German Olympic T Team) strongly advised against the masts, then the class president came out strongly against Rolands arguments.. Chaotic indeed..
It has been my understanding through correspondence with Marlstrom, that the "deciding factor" to convert to carbon for Tornado masts was not one of "performance, but due mostly to the continued and growing difficulty to procure "reliable" sources and costs for the supply of aluminium sections. The same situation applies here in Australia and has made the conversion to carbon not so much "a choice" but more a necessity to ensure future reliable supply.
I read an article last week in either the St. Petersburg Times or the Tampa Tribune on real estate in the Keys, specifically Key West. All of the old "Conchs" are moving out of there because the real estate has skyrocketed. The cheapest housing for sale was a 240 sq. ft. condo going for well over $200K. Houses bought for $60K in the seventies are going for over $1 million now. The people who own property are selling and becoming instatnt millionaires. Key West is having a hard time filling lower-paying jobs because those people cannot afford to live there anymore. Someone should be prodding the local government to preserve beach & boat access for the general public but it's hard to get them to stand up to the big money being put up by the developers. This is happening to all of the waterfront in Central & South Florida. A good real estate market, decent economy and no income tax in FL is bringing all sorts of people down here willing to spend extroadinary sums of money on property. People are buying multi-million dollar houses on the water, just to tear them down and build even bigger houses. The sad thing is that this will probably not improve. I'm thankful for the places we do have and try to do my part in keeping them picked up and problem-free so as to not create attention and have them taken away. The Dunedin Causeway for example. There are always people who want to have all boat access removed from there. By keeping it clean and not causing any scenes we keep it out of the target scope. We'll leave the littering, fighting and obnoxious behavior to the PWC crowd 😉