National F104 Challenge

Some more information:

The Nacra 17 Sloop was disqualified as it did not measure correctly

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where is motor mouth maaca now.?? <img src=

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Seems like your egging him on Marcus. How about F16 sailors deal with your Wouter problem and then telephone and forum moderation would not be needed.

Darryn

I think I know where you're coming from in regards to forums but with articles like this, one has to wonder what the big manufacturers and their so called promoters are up to <img src=

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Maybe they are after F16 sailors with a lightweight version. Certain forum members have been asking for a long time why volume manufactures do not build lightweight boats. Could be Hobie just did it.

Cheshirecatman

The word in the ad one is

considering

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Lets wait and see if they make the effort. <img src=

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I agree considering isn't much of anything. I'm considering going back to college. I'm considering jumping off of a building. But on the other hand HCE does have a ton of models to choose from and it wouldn't be a huge shock. The crappy thing is that the FXone is about $18k in the U.S. loaded up with all the goodies, what will it cost with carbon hulls and mast?!?

I have spoken to the French dealer who has informed me of the following:-

Actually the boat did measure correctly.

It presented a valid cert at registration and it was accepted then.

However the second placed team lodged a protest after the last race of the series and the kids sailing the boat in the regatta didn't have the cert with them. It was with the French dealer. The Jury allowed a measurement protest to go ahead after the event and DSQed the team.

There is currently an appeal with the FFV to sort the issue.

If you read the comments on the 104 site they all confirm that the boat is in deed a 104 and it should be recorded as the winner. I think that once the appeal happens the results will be corrected.

Come back to reality: Sailors win the race, not the boat.

Apart from this it is a shame to claim a victory if the decission is still pending. Is Nacra in such a bad situation, that such tricks are necessary? This sort of promotion is just disgusting. You should tell this the Nacra dealer if you speake with him next time.

P.S. People go sailing because it is fun.

Klaus

Hows else are you suposed to do it??? Performance, as Wouter has pointed out is more related to the skill of the crew on the boat. So you cant derive a fair Yardstick from that. Measurement is therefore the only way to do it. You can go off and create your own class of boat ignoring the rating systems involved or you can create one that is optimised for racing to a rating. Somethng some of the heavier F16s should consider. You dont have to add wieght either, you can achieve the same result buy removing sail area, or one or all of the other factors in the ratings calculator.

The 2 optimised 104s that sailed at texel finished within 10 seconds of each other, truth is it was a lot closer than that. After 4 hrs of sailing that is quite remarkable. I believe the crews to be a very similar wieght and skill level. The two boats looked and behaved very differently but in the end turned out to be as evenly matched as you could get.

Wouldn't this point to the 104 rule being a good one? Who needs extensive class rules? Just make sure your boat is a 104 and your away. Doesn't matter if the boat is 18 ft or 16, just make it fit the rule and come racing. I would happily compete against an F18 modified to fit 104 on the spitfire or the Nacra F17. I doubt any of the f16 crews would feel as confident even though on paper they hold the advantage.

Looking very much foward to doing some more 104 sailing this season.

Sue xxx

Macca,

All you've actually said above is that SCHRS works as it should.

Make boats rate the same under SCHRS and assuming helms and crews are of equal skill, they finish very close.

It does not matter if you position the rule at F1.035; F1.045; Or even allow a spread; all that happens is that boats will be designed to fit the rules that are applied.

That would be Sue that replied there. But I agree, the handicap system seems to be working pretty well.

Level rating racing is growing around thw world, In the UK there are fleets of yachts all agreing to race in very narrow rating bands in an effort to improve class racing and make the most of the boats that are similar in design.

Actually, F16 would do well if they invited 104 boats to their intergalactic champs in Wales. The boats seem to be pretty close in performance and it would increase fleet numbers as well as potentially showing the 104 teams that the F16 rule is a good option... Or the other way around...

This website also confirmed for a while that the AHPC Viper F16 was a F104 boat when it really wasn't. Not only in specs but also because it it broke the

class rules

that more then 10 had to be produced and that it had to be launched at an official international boatshow. The Viper design failed at the time on both accounts although I think just shy of 10 have been sold now.

My point here being that while at I do believe the EU F17 to be a good and fast design, the dependency of the F104 blogsite isn't too great.

Personally the EU F17 fails on the

min 10 boat produced

requirement as well and can be protested out of the race on those grounds as well. We know of only 2 boat in existance in EU attire.

Why the F104 class has ever decided on having these rules is beyond me.

The only reasons I can think off is that the associated builders (Hobie, Nacra, Mattia, BCM) want to corner this market for themselves and prevent any smaller builder to be able to make a succesful start in this class. Makes me wonder who is creating this class, the boat owners and sailors or the mainstream builders ?

But, we must comment Macca for coming clean on this topic on this forum. Basically it is an admittal that the F17 has NOT won the F104 French national title; A DSQ is DSQ. The F17 crew apparently sailed very well, no doubt about that, but the title has not been awarded to them.

What I think more interesting is that SCHRS handicap system by the persona of it official Simon has indicated on this forum that it is in the dark about the F17 measured weight too. It asks publically for any certified and officially recognized measurement form of the F17. Basically, this F17 design had no SCHRS handicap as of this moment. I'm still waiting for the official Texel confirmation off its rating. Typically the listing is update a few weeks after the Round Texel each year : http://www.watersportverbond.nl/content.asp?me_id=468%20

Wouter

There are 6 or 7+ in Singapore so they should be over 10 by now based on some in EU, Aus and US as well. Prob fail on the boat show bit.

The SCHRS management group are awaiting formal notification of the data points for the F17, backed up by appropiate certification via an ISAF measurement certificate.

Macca has outlined to story above. I will calculate an official rating once official documentation has been provided.

Sue,

Huh ?!

What should we consider ? Using yardsticks inside our Formula fleet ?

Besides adding weight to a platform is alot easier and cheaper then having a new mainsail made or have it cut smaller while not affecting is flying shape c.q. behaviour too much.

No they didn't. A Sloop rigged EU nacra F17 and a One-design Spitfire finished within 10 seconds of eachother. Both are at this time declared as Single Manufactorer One-Design (SMOD) classes; neither choose to register themselves as F104's or even under any other shared name indicating that they belong to the same class.

Also The OD Spitfire specs were layed down somewhere in 1997 or 1998 and have not changed ever since. And while its rating is 104 under SCHRS it has still some margin to cover with respect to the lowest possible rating under F104 which is 1.035.

To call a Spitfire an optimized F104 is the same as calling the OD Taipan 4.9 design an optimized F16, which it isn't. The formula classes grew to enclose both these designs, but neither designs were ever optimized for these formula classes.

Officially, the Spitfire class DOES NOT recognize the F104 class as an official class for their boats. They hold on to their own One-Design class while not (actively) opposing the creation of F104 (and why should they ?) and have said so in discussions with the F104 class.

Yes, but the boats specs are very identical; what is the difference between a 15.45 sq, mtr main (Spitfire) and a 15.34 sq. mtr main (EU F17) ?

Truly the F104/F17 class is discovering a concept that was pioneered by the A-cat class and F18 class for over 30 to 15 years and has seen follow-ups in many other classes like the F20, F16, F18HT, etc. Get a grip guys !

How about showing this tendency in a consistant sense and over a wider range of crew skills first ?

This single Texel result, with the second F17 waaaaaay down the listing, can even have been caused by a lucky hit. I'm not saying this was the case but we can't know from just one single result. Let alone have this single result acts as a convincing proof.

As a guy who has been done this road before I can tell you that the F104 class needs a few additional rules to make it a stable class. Not many rules, but a few nevertheless. And that it needs to remove the

produce at least 10 boats

and

launch it officially at an international boatshow

first.

Without deleting these, you just can't

make sure your boat is a 104

unless you are reasonable sized boatbuilder to begin with. Lets totally forget about any private modifications to an existing platform to become a F104. F104 is definately NOT as easy as

just make it fit the rule and come racing

; as is the case with truly owner run formula classes like the A's, F18's and F16's.

Again, it is easy to show how much BS is flying around.

Wouter

Viper F16

We have 2 sold here in EU now + the demo boat used at the F16 globall challenge last year.

There is one at Gulfport Yachtclub Florida USA and that appears to be the only one in the USA.

I know of 2 Vipers that are sailing in South Australia.

So with

6 or 7+

in Singapore that would make at least 12 boats produced, indeed.

Although I'm a little bit miffed about what

6 or 7+

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Wouter

Level rated classes???

Anybody know if this kind of cat class has ever worked?

Seems to me... as soon as you get 5 at an event... somebody starts with the... If we go One design... we will grow our members a lot faster...

Then the Level rated class implodes.

Wouter

If you had have turned up to Texel you would have had a grand total of 4 F16s. That doesn't constitute a fleet in my book so you have to race on handicap/yardstick/some arbitrary figure. None of the F16s present ran with the F18s like they are suposed to. My guess is that they are too heavy to perform at 101. And if you worked out each individual boats real life texel rating it would show that.

Secondly Chris's spitfire certainly is not the One Design spitfire you speak of. If you actually turned up to regattas you would know this. It is an optimised 104 just like i said. You should maybe stop gripping yourself so hard.

The other F17 was not the sloop version and therefore was not a 104.

As for the French 104 nationals that still remains to be seen. The boat in question certainly was a 104 so it sounds like a case of 2 kids being bullied out of a well deserved win.

Its pointless to disscuss anything with you Wouter because when faced with the sometimes inconvinient truth you just make [censored] up to suit yourself.

Sue

Exactly, so whats your point?

F18??? A class?? should i continue?

Wouter, it means there are some in the process of being assembled and another 2 or 3 more on their way to Singapore (depending whether you count the stock the dealers holds on hand) and the boats are in a container somewhere between the factory and Singapore. ETA is one week. I know cos one of them has my name on it. <img src=

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With the latest shipment i believe the fleet of vipers do hit 10 just here in Singapore alone. With 10 vipers, lots of taipans, 2 blades, lots of nacras, couple of A cats, couple of hobies this monsoon should see some really really fun racing.

Talking about the Nacra 17, we do have one of the first boats here in Singapore, waayyy back from the late 90s when they were known as inter 17 (australian version). In fact i believe these were one of the first 17s to be built ever they are definitely very very different animals from the Nacra EU F17 seen on the nacra website. Can't imagine how it would be possible to come up with a common rating for the Nacra 17 unless all the older 17 were forced to change their rigs, foils, sails, control lines... Just removing the bridle for the jib on the old 17 is worth quite a few kilos right there.

But back to talking about the F104, while it's a really great idea, i think it might be tough for the idea to gain traction internationally because the boats that now fit within F104 are very very specific to Europe IMO. But i do love the idea of having a whole bunch of boats really close in rating just racing together and i think in the future, fleets of F100 or F104 or whatever will start popping up depending on which parts of the world one is in.

For example, i personally do not foresee the F104 gaining traction in Asia. The boats that fit within that framework are generally from European manufacturers and too expensive (due to euro), the fact that other fleets are already very established in this region, and the current boats in the F104 are just too heavy. but the concept is still great though and I look forward to the future of everyone racing together.

interesting.. You told me you bought a Hobie..

Stay miffed. Means that I don't consciously go counting boats at the club. Just know that there are a few of them now with more on the way. There were 4 on the water today, is that precise enough for you?

Sue, I have been a strong proponent of a level rated class solution for the USA...(When you get enough boats... its a step up from handicap and below lots of strong OD classes) It makes a lot more sense then small one design classes.

But No, F18 is not an example.

I believe you have a formula F18 box rule which evolves and serves to limit lots of inovations. (good things as far as the class membership is concerned)

This would be completely at odds with a Level rated rule which used ISAf or Texel to calculate the rating. as macca said... change a rated paramaeter on your boat to get into the class.

Moreover, the F18 Class has a real tendancy to fracture and go one design as soon as they can in the USA.
The BS that both an F18 class and a F18 OD class can exist is crap because people choose to go racing 5 or 6 times a year and then you don't have critial mass for both classes.\
US Sailors are simply NOT going to listen or support any national authority that tells them what they can or can not do.

I came to the conclusion that human nature is such that variables in the wide open level rated class undermine buy in to the class. As soon as one type is thought to be faster... it's a game over. EG. the Ventilo 20 crushed the F20 class in that now dead formula class.

the US tried an informal level rated with Nacra 5.8's and Prindle 19's. it just drove up the

Horse's for courses debate,

Basically Humans always think it's the equipment... not the skill set on the tiller.

I think level racing is a great idea... BUT is seemingly hard to make happen. The US has their I17 fleet and a F16 single handed fleet (sort of kind of fleet)... You would think after 4 years that they would have found a way to get ONE event scheduled, promoted and sailed.

It seems that only a National sailing authority like the French can make and enforce a level rating class. Sounds like the sailors are going along with it in France.

([censored]... the USA sailors can't even join a national class, much less follow a USSA directive.)

Do the french stop a club from hosting a one design race in events whihc host a level rated F104 class?

What else are the french doing to make a level rated class happen.

Thanks
Mark

I don't know about Texel, but Chris's Spitfire at the French 104 Nationls was a standard OD Spitfire - as was Freddy's

Are we guessing now ?

Wouter

Hi Mark,

that is a good comment. However I am not sure if the french sailing authority forces sailors to do F104 racing. It is maybe a kind of interculturel difference between the U.S. and Europe. I know a lot of people who buy the boat, where the dealers is closest or others buy Hobie just because they bought always Hobies. But not beacuse one company claims superiority. Technical details or boat performance is rated as not that important and hence we (in Europe) can imagine to sail different boats with the same rating. I think that you will find this difference of rating technology benefit not only in sailing, but in many aspects of life.

But I agree, every level rated calss is prone to break apart. A-cat is doing well, maybe because all boats are very similar, and the most important part, mast and sail, will be exchanged regulary anyway. So no problem to update. F18 is doing well in Europe, but to be honest F18 is closer to OD than Formula, because the rules are so tight.

Cheers,

Klaus

Wouter,

it is all about guessing:
The magazine

voiles et voiliers

guessed that the F17 sloop is much better than all other F104.
Nacra guessed that they won the F104 nationals.
Macca guessed that Frederic sailed a Nacra, than that Frederic is a kid.
Sue guessed that the Spitfire in Texel was a modification.
And a group of people guess that the boat is more important than the sailors ability.

It is maybe not guessing, it is intensionally stating wrong facts.

Cheers,

Klaus

and I'm guessing you are hit the nail on the head Klaus! <img src=

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smoke and mirrors anyone? <img src=

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