National F104 Challenge

Simon,

Have you ever put the FX1 data advertised by Hobie into schrs? I seem to recall they forgot to put the mast measurment into sail area.I did it a few years ago (before the rating mods). It was quite interesting.

David

All the configs we have been asked to rate for boats are on the site

http://www.schrs.com/index.php?page=ratings

We are in the process of uploading a few more this weekend.

damn that looks like a lot of work!!

So for sailors who use the system.. thanks...

The story:

AFAIK the first measurement done on a euro F17 was done in February in France on boat number 376 by Pierre-Charles Barraud. It was found *not* compliant with 104 by a tiny margin. This measurement was done at the request of the french sailing magazine

voiles et voiliers

who published an article earlier this year comparing a bunch of 104.

Nacra (changed|will change|may change|said they will change|is rumored they may have changed) the jib a little bit to make the boat compliant at 1.035. I have no idea if this change has been made or not.

At the french challenge 104 (*not* national F104, the class is not recognised yet and as such cannot pretend to a national), the same boat, a factory sponsored Nacra F17 #376, crewed by a top teenage team (Gueho/Lecallo-usually racing on SL16) won by a nice margin in the light winds, with lines honor a lot of times. After being protested for being not 104 compliant by the Spitfire in second position it appeared that the Nacra F17 crew was unable to produce a measurement certificate, so they were DSQ by the jury.

According to a comment by Lecallo on a french forum this particular F17 has now been re-measured and found compliant with 1.04, which would imply that Nacra has implemented the jib change on this particular boat, but nobody outside the reseller knows if it was done *before* or *after* the event, so the DSQ stands. And nobody has seen this new measurement certificate either.

Thanks Pepin,

That story sounds about right. I saw the jib get changed before it left for the event. But you'll have to take my word for it.

Think about it. They knew about the measuement before the event. Would it seriously be in their interest to leave the boat as it was in February.

Like i said before it sounds like those kids were bullied out of their result by older, wiser and more experienced crews. Not the first time something like that has happened.

I cant understand how you could throw out a team for measurement issues without actually measuring the boat? Ridiculous!! As specially at the end of the regatta.

Sue

A requirement for all the regatta I know about is to have a measured boat with a measurement certificate. AFAIK the only measurement done with this boat at the time of the 104 challenge was done early in the year, the change in jib was probably implemented but the boat was not re-measured. Hence its DSQ.

It would be nice if Sirena would send the rumored new certificate to the SCHRS to end these discussions once and for all.

As for the

end of regatta protest

I should point out that the protest was verbally notified to the crew on the Nacra on the first day and officially logged at the beginning of the second day, but only judged *after* the regatta.

At the F16 global challenge of aug 2007. All boats were checked for compliance with F16 class rules and 2 crews had to recut their sails and have them checked AGAIN to be allowed to race. A third crew had to put weight up the top of their mast for the same reasons. Sails were marked for the event so compliance of easily exchanged gear could easily be checked by rival crews at any moment during the racing. I can give many examples of similar dealings at other classes like the A's, F18's and Tornado's.

For some reason this seems to be a recurring theme, hardly an exception. The DSQ and protest rules are there for a reason. This was not an

improper

protest and DSQ ruling as far as I can tell because this is exactly why these rules are in place.

I mean, as you say, who benefits from sloppy measurements or sloppy enforcement of compliance ?

The winning team with the non-compliant boat ?

The catamaran dealor selling the new boat type (first of its kind) using the promo value of a win in its first event ?

The F104 class as they can claim another boat

optimized

to their

class

rule

Are we really that naive to believe that we don't have a bunch of diverging interests here, that need to be tightly controlled and regulated ?

Are we to believe that nobody is benefitting when

accidently

picking up the wrong sailbag out of the trailer or having

foolishly

misplaced the

rumoured

measurement certificate ?

But to top it off you actually argue :

Well, the

measurement issue

are that the given boat WASN'T measured as compliant the first time around (feb 2008) and no new measurement of the (rumoured) modification making it compliant could be presented. All classes demand a boat to be measured BEFORE entering a race as simply no boat can ever be retro-active be certified after the event.

I call that a serious issue inside any self respecting formula class !

I mean how difficult is it to miraculously pick the correct sailbag out of the trailer for such a measurement ? Without

event stamping

there is no way to check which sail was actually used during the races.

What is the difference between a fleet of wildly different boats and a formula class ?

Right, the fact that at least in the latter all boats are certified and garanteed to adhere to a performance equilizing norm.

And lets view this case from the perspective of the other sailors. How would you feel if a non-compliant boat (on several accounts even) without a compliant measurement certificate where to be placed above you while sailing a truly fully compliant boat with all official papers in order ?

Would that be fair to you ?

Would giving so much slack to the F17 agent/dealor be fair to the say the Spitfire agent/dealor ?

Come on !

Wouter

Sue,
Twist it however you like but reading this thread it appears that Nacra are claiming victory in a regatta in which they were disqualified.

TRUE ?

They post their claims of VICTORY on their web site and it looks like their employees are working at misleading us regarding the validity of the real results.

From the information posted in this thread it appears that NACRA fronted up with a boat that had previously proven to be illegal.

The DSQ seems justified.

Meanwhile it seems that NACRA and employees are trying to deny the Spitfire manufacturers the glory of victory.

At the very least NACRA owe the Spitfire manufacturers a public apology.

[color:

red

]

Sue or who ever you are

Protest of this sort usually go thus in other classes I've sailed:

1, Protest lodged and other party is informed that there is a protest based on the compliance of their boat with the class rules and or measurement certificate
2, Protest is then chcked to see if it is valid
3, Protest is then conducted.
4, Result of protest declared.

There was no bullying, a protest was lodged, it was conducted, they could not produce a valid certificate and they were DSQ'd.

If they had been present with a certificate, and the protest had been that the jib they were sailing with was not the jib detailed on the certificate, then the sail would need to be measured (by an ISAF measurer) to find out if it did measure to the dimentions on the certificate. In this case, I would expect that the current certificate, plus the results of the re-measurement would then be presented to a member of the SCHRS management group (details on the www.SCHRS.com website).

They would then take these data points, enter them into the SCHRS rating engine and produce an OFFICIAL certificate. This certificate would then be emailed / printed and given to the owner, or representative of the boat and this certificate would also be kept as part of the underlying documentation that backs up all new ratings that are on the SCHRS webiste. This certificate would indicate of the rating was within the 1.035 and 1.045 SCHRS rating required by F104.

I have yet to be provided with any valid data for me to calculate a rating for this boat.

Sue must have a gender confusion issue.......by night timeon the internet she is a trouble maker by the name of sue....by day he is a sailmaker for performance sails in the Netherlands....or is that really nacra...???

Now this all makes sense.....macca and sue are a team on the internet and a team at the regatta's....

I wonder if the nacra boss/s approve of this sort of behaviour.?

Clayton

You were a friendless child wern't you clayton??? Probably still are. I bet you have a shitty job too.

Sue

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Clay,

I must say that I agree whole heartedly with Sue.

You must be a twisted individual and the product of a miserable childhood.

To be inferring that Sue is not a girl but in fact a boy.
It is just out of the question.

What self respecting level headed chap would call himself Sue?

Then you go onto say that Macca and Sue are working together.

Hell they are making their employer look like they have to steel the glory justly won by a rival boat manufacturer.

You are twisted and I just can't buy it.

Surely they wouldn't be silly enough to do this without the knowledge of their employer?

I think you need therapy.

Sue,
your post is laughable..

but but but... you stated you bought a new Hobie 16? Is the H16 a F104? Or was this all made up?

Come clean and all will be almost forgiven

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My daddy left home when I was three
And he didn't leave much to ma and me
Just this old guitar and an empty bottle of booze.
Now, I don't blame him cause he run and hid
But the meanest thing that he ever did
Was before he left, he went and named me

Sue.

Well, he must o' thought that is quite a joke
And it got a lot of laughs from a' lots of folk,
It seems I had to fight my whole life through.
Some gal would giggle and I'd get red
And some guy'd laugh and I'd bust his head,
I tell ya, life ain't easy for a boy named

Sue.

Ah yes but ....

And he said: "Son, this world is rough
And if a man's gonna make it, he's gotta be tough
And I knew I wouldn't be there to help ya along.
So I give ya that name and I said goodbye
I knew you'd have to get tough or die
And it's the name that helped to make you strong

Hey but Sue is just a girlie, we can never make a man of her, she simply shouldn't have the right bits. <img src=

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Must have hit a nerve or something.... <img src=

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sweatshopping

that sailcloth thru the sewing machines all day long.?

Gee Wiz I am still a child compared to you, but it seems I have plenty of freinds here and I dont even know any of them. <img src=

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Clayton (or should i start calling myself Clarise?)

Yeah.. you got me clayton. Life's very tuff at the office.

Welcome to the F104 class by the way. What did you do with your f16?

But i wonder who hit whos nerve. Thats the only post that you've ever typed that is more than one line. You seem to be going through the full spectrum of emotions as well. Good luck with those internet friends of yours.

Ah well back to the Sweat Shop.

Sue

My name is Sue. How do you do?

Finish the Johnny Cash quote:

My name is 'Sue!' How do you do? Now your gonna die!!

Them is the brakes..... <img src=

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I do not have a F16 as yet.....was thinking about F104 but not sure now. <img src=

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Emotions are fun....dont you think? You chose to start insulting me (becuause your cover was blown) guess my upbringing & current status, but I chose emotions instead? <img src=

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Me too - BTW did you manage to sort out the schrs certificate yet? I think

macca' claimed it was on its way to that pommie scoooby fellow.? I guess when that is all said & done, your camp can claim moral victory alteast.? <img src=

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I am still a formula sailor sitting

on the fence

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PM me if you want to discuss further

Clayton,

With respect, all im trying to point out by personally attacking you is that your not interested in the class. Your just trying to get some sort of strange kick out of blowing my cover. As if a lot of the people here havent worked out who i am already, or actually give a [censored].

You sure were up late last night posting stuff. Most normal people would be in bed. As a Hobie and ,shock of shocks, Nacra sailor to i would direct you back to the f16 class. They love the inter web.

Sue

You have absolutely no idea what class I am interesed in. I guess i took a leaf out of your book <img src=

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not really.....just showing the internested parties here what narca representatives are capable of. Did you get a astrange kick out of creating an alter ego username like sue....obviously not prepared to use your real name....wow hat a personality you must be....Nacra must be proud.

what a load of crap....really. Pr**ks like you dont deserve to be on a forum regardless of the wouters of this world.

Again you make assumptions you know asolutely nothing about....time to give it away now.

Thankyou - are you giving me permission to go into cyberspace now.? Even though I have not met wouter, i would prefer listening to his crap in favour of people that put up false fronts to atempt destablising individuals & new classes.

I off to afternoon shift - I will check out your verbal diahorrea later.

Clayton

So then Sue is really just a man

pretending

to be a woman? <img src=

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No Alter Ego jackass. Just a name. Ive not pretended to be any one. Lets look at who you are a little closer tho shall we.

You claim to be in Western europe which your quite obviously not. You first claim to be a f16 sailor and then tack over to the 104 which you are not a member of either class. Your name isn't clayton either. Whos the pretender Clayton??? Who puts up false fronts??? Im not even sure that you are the same person as previous posts. Had to call in some help did we? For that matter Buccaneer are you a man pretending to be a pirate?

Im not guessing or making assumptions i know who you are the first post was enough. My previous posts are a pretty good description of you. I dont blame your upbringing, your parents are

probably

lovely people you just turned out to be not so cool.

As for constantly tying me back to nacra. I just work for them sometimes, I own a brand new hobie, i think that qualifies me as one of the few semi-impartial people here. My opinions are my own and i stand by them. The only agenda that i would like to see pushed is as many classes of cat coming together as possible and actually doing some racing instead of talking it up and not putting your boat where your mouth is. The 104 is a great example of a class that brings sailors together.

As for the French nationals there was an obvious communication problem and i apologise to and congratulate the spitfire crew that won. That avenue will not work again tho and results will have to be sorted out on the water from now on. I dont think any of the sailors will have a problem with that.

You give up clayton, you've got nothing and never had it. And that goes for both of you.

Sue xxx

Sue: Serously, why dont you just use your own name?, I dont see why you shouldnt.
It would make it easier if you ever meet any of us on the beach.

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