New Hull materials are coming

Looks a lot like a Dart 16.............{although it's bound to be a better boat}

Who knows about treated carbon fiber that can be wetted with polyester resin? What is this treatment? The Italian Bimare group is using it for XJ cats. Do they use polyvinyl ester with it? I have not heard of US builders using it vs the usual epoxy.

Why is it necessary to add something like that? What the heck is a "better boat"?

Mary,

Having now sailed Dart 16's on three occasions, I've been impressed with the overall design but very disappointed at how flexible or 'unstiff?' the boat seems to be.

If this new design has all the good points of the Dart 16 - simplicity, skegs for beaching, good kick-up rudders, well thought out rig and controls - BUT (by virtue of it's new construction material) is stiffer and probably lighter, then it's going to be a 'better boat'.

Jalani,
My point is that it is not necessary to extol the virtues of one boat by making derogatory comparisons to another. People tend to love their boats. For a lot of people their boat is the "best" boat for their purposes.

There is a lot of elitist, high-tech snobbery on this open forum, and it discourages a lot of sailors from participating in the discussion because they are afraid their boat is going to be bashed.

Why do you think we have a separate forum for the Hobie 16's?

A "better boat" has nothing to do with technology or materials or design or speed of the boat. It is an entirely subjective thing based upon a great number of factors.

It is not productive for the catamaran sailing community for anybody to say negative things about other classes of catamarans. We should all be supportive of everybody who has a multihull. And if somebody personally thinks some other cat is a piece of [censored], he should keep his mouth shut.

Mary,

I don't actually believe that ANY catamaran is a 'piece of {censored}'. All catamarans have some virtue, even if it is only that it is a more stable platform than a dinghy. I also don't believe that I was being derogatory about the Dart 16 (at least that was NOT the intent), instead I was being positive about the new Twincat. I am assuming that as a result of using Twintex the new boat will be everything that the Dart 16 could be if it wasn't rotomoulded. It is my personal opinion only and I'm sure that there are many people who think I'm mad to have bought a rotomoulded Hobie Twixxy - but it suits my purposes as a bullet proof training boat for my kids.

If a Twixxy was built from anything other than rotomoulded plastic, it would IMO be a 'better boat' BUT it then wouldn't necessarily be suitable for my purposes. If bumper car sturdiness was my requirement then I'd go for the Dart 16 over the Twincat, but for that type of boat it wouldn't be.

You're right that perhaps 'better boat' in the context of my original post was probably too vague. That's the problem of communicating via this medium - we've had many misunderstandings on this forum before, resulting in offence being taken where none was intended.

Once again I'll state that I actually like the Dart 16, I just felt that the Twincat will address the one area where I felt disappointed (and but for which I might well have bought a Dart 16 at the London Boat Show in 2004). Aren't ALL the posts on this forum just the personal opinion of the poster?

BTW, I don't quite understand the comment about the separate H16 forum? I never have, or would, disparage the H16. I had some of my first sails in big waves on a H16 and I have nothing but fond memories of the boat (even the capsizing ) Are you saying that H16 sailors EXPECT disparaging remarks from the cat sailing fraternity? This comes back to my comment on the ISAF thread that we are demonstrating how fragmented we are and that is NOT GOOD.

Finally therefore to all or any Dart sailors out there who took exception to my comment, I apologise, there was no offence intended..........

I have to disagree with you, Mary. Part of the value of this forum is access to opinion like that posted by Jalani. Granted Jalani's post was MORE useful after your question prompted an elaboration of that opinion.

The onus is on the reader to determine how much he/she values the opinion of a particular person, but the more opinions the better. I feel that it is counter-productive to silence someone's opinion or to create an environment where people refrain from posting an opinion because of pressure (real or perceived) to not offend anyone.

So if anyone thinks one boat is better than another, please say so [and let us know why you think thusly]. In this case, Jalani's perspective on the positive aspects of the Dart 16's design features contrasted with what appear to be construction deficits was very useful information.

Hopefully the point of using Twintex is that they will be able to get bumper car sturdiness equivalent to a Dart 16, Wave, or Twixxy and keep the weight down and stiffness up so get performance equivalent to a GRP cat.

All the best

Gareth

Gareth

Nobody is "silencing" anybody or any opinions on this forum. The only silence comes from those who are afraid to post because they have seen their boat demeaned by others.

It is good to have constructive criticisms and opinions from people who have experience with any given boat. Jalani explained what he meant by "better boat," and that's the proper way to do it.

We all need to be aware that when we talk about other boats, real people own those boats and love their boats and don't like to hear somebody putting their boat down.

As I said in the first place, it is not necessary to extol the virtues of one boat by making derogatory comparisons to another.

Will the Twintex materials be able to be repaired in the same fashion as current materials? IS it a painted suface or similar to gel coat?

I think boats and opinions are the same. If you think someones opinion is a peice of crap, he/she should keep his/her mouth shut.
Gee, what agreat idea! Maybe there could be personal forums for each person so that you could only read your own opinion!
BRILLIANT!

Mary,
I would welcome negative opinions as well as positive ones. I see it as an essential element of a balanaced view that I look to this forum for.

There have been times when I have wanted an honest comparison, such as "how much better is a Nacra F18 than the Inter 18 for an average sailor". If I wanted only the positive views, I'd look at the Nacra website and other sales literature and even reviews, only to find that both boats are "the best thing since sliced bread". I rely on real sailors saying what they think to help me form a view. Of course all views need to be stated honestly and with consideration. And as Jalani shows, more information made for a better informed view.

For the record, I owned a Dart 16. I prefer my Spitfire - it is a better boat for me because it is a lot faster and more 'fiesty', with twin wires, a spinnaker, great to handle, and so on. The Dart 16 was also a better boat, in that it was robust, slow and stable, and so suited to a beginner.

Simon

Okay, Eric,
If even you don't understand what I am talking about, I guess there is no hope for our small, fragile, slowly dying catamaran community.

It's pretty simple and basic:

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

If you have to say something negative, try to say something positive first.

Pretend you are talking about somebody else's wife.

This cat cought my interest a few days ago because of the Irish connection. There's a better view here.
http://www.bymnews.com/new/content/view/19091/57/
I am not sure that I like the "handles" on the bows
John's remark slightly "ruffled my feathers" because I think that the Dart 16 is one of the best "fun cats" around and is great for beginners and also exhilerating for an experienced cat sailor when the wind is up. Also when it first came out, I raced it in a force 5 against a Dart 18 helmed by an "equal ability crew" and beat the 18 in 2 races, mainly because of the 16s better windward performance.
However on explaination, I agree that a stiffer Dart 16 would be a great cat. I mainly race the Spitfire, but for holiday fun, I bring the Dart 16.

Okay, all of you have to understand that I am a one-design sailor. Most of you are not. Most of you are interested in the fastest and the bestest.

We one-design sailors don't care about making our boats faster or "better." We want them to all be the same and stay the same forever. Doesn't matter what's wrong with them.

So when somebody knocks a boat that is sailed one-design (as I think the Darts are over in Europe), I had to say something.

My mistake. Obviously, one-designs are not welcome on this forum. So I will keep my mouth shut (as Eric suggested) and leave you guys alone.

Twintex is described by the manufacturer as being repairable, It can be welded but it is very difficult to get anything to stick to it as it is a polypropylene based material.

I don't know the details of this boat, but from the renderings it definatly looks to have some kind of surface finnish. I think that gelgoating a Twintex boat defeats the object somewhat as the Gel coat would fracture in an impact.

A plain Twintex finish is available in black or off white. A black finish looks like this

Thanks Mary.
We get the point. I don't think it read that he was trying to be mean. We're not here to bash other's boats, but to engage in polite debate and comparison. That generally goes pretty smoothly.
But the Open Forum is open to anybody, even us one design sailors.
I have a Class Legal Tiger which is also an F-18, does that make me a two-design sailor???
Maybe I'm just confused . . . . . .

See you at Tradewinds . . . .

Oh no not again with the "4KeelDrive" thingy, now here's a boat thet needs it's own forum. Has this Quadra-Cat ever been tested in the surf by chance..............

Dear oh dear.....

The Cat really is in amongst the pigeons isn't it?

I almost wish I'd kept my comments to myself (but that wouldn't have been terribly useful in the context of debate would it?)

Mary, no one should feel unwelcome to post on an open forum (including and especially OD sailors ). So, please DO continue to have your say (if it hadn't been for you Dermot would still be 'ruffled' .)

Having been the unwitting instigator of this episode. I'd just like to say... ENOUGH!

Let's just get back to respecting each other's points of view (even if we don't necessarily agree with them - oh, and feel free to say so too )

Gareth, (to get back on track) I see that your little project is a Twintex craft. Have you found that the material lives up to it's claims? Is it really as stiff, light and impact resistant as the bumf says? What if you don't like black or 'off-white'? Would it be a good or suitable material for home built foils? (the REAL point of my questions)

Yes it has, On Brighton beach there is always surf when there is wind. Because the Bouyancy is concentrated at the corners it is very stable and so very difficult to pitchpoll, I would like to say impossible but nothings impossible. We have a pebble beach and a big surf so when you beach it you usually have to do so at speed, We have had many heavy landings onto rocks and no problems with that either.

I beleive it does live up to its claims, our hulls are stiff, light at 10kg each, and impact resistant. It is quite difficult to quantify how impact resisant, I have dropped lead weights onto test pieces of Marine Ply and Twintex, and 9mm thick ply will break before 2mm thick twintex. The Dart 16 test report said they dropped a hull from 3ft and it didn't break, so I have dropped one of mine from 6 ft onto concrete over and over with no damage.

If you don't like off white or black then you have to paint it or gelcoat it. I would say that it is no good for home build as it needs a vacuum and an oven to get it to 200 centigrade. However I have seen some feindishly clever homebuilders!

Cheers
Gareth

So - I'm a PIGEON now...
Alright - ENOUGH
The hull material seems to be great, but what does anyone think of the hull length. Will there be enough buoyancy for 2 adults. The main reason that I rated the Dart 16 "better" is that there is very good buoyancy in the hulls. This Twin Cat is only 15ft. Now I'm in trouble with all the D15, P15 H14 guys

As a Hobie-16 owner (and as a person with a bald, hairless head), its OK to toss the occational friendly 'insult' at us, as long as you are generally a kind person. A little humorful banter is fun. And Hobies are an easy target.

Most folks understand how to give a friendly ribbing. But there are always a few "socially-challenged" individuals, whose attempts at humor lack much skill. A gentle public reminder for rare mistakes, and a private e-mail to repeat offenders should work in most cases. I don't think we need to consider the gallows, but the peasants-with-pitchforks crowd might consider this entertaining.

I remember following a H-16 all the way from Miami to Key Largo one year when it was blowin' stink and could never pass the SOB and I was on an H-20. The H-16 was in it's element and hung on to win.

I still wouldn't buy one.

"There is a lot of elitist, high-tech snobbery on this open forum, and it discourages a lot of sailors from participating in the discussion because they are afraid their boat is going to be bashed."

I suspect I am guilty of old fashioned low tech snobbery

The thread a few months back about how fast a beach cat can sail left me cold! 20knots, 22knots who cares! Not me, I'm very content with the boat I have.

Gareth,
Any idea what the Twincat weighs?

Do you have to rotomold the twinex, or can you vacuum mold it?

Is your boat vacuum molded? If so how do you get the halves to bond?

And you need to get it to 200 C to do what with it? Vacuum mold it? Does it become softer at a lower temp? Could you form sheets into a half hull at a lower temp?

Thanks

Bill

Sorry, I have no Idea what the Twincat weighs but I would be very interested to find out.

Twintex is Vacuum molded, The hulls are one piece i.e there is no joining of the two halves required.

Twintex is a prepreg material, you lay it up dry in the two halves of the mold, join the two halves and apply vaccuum and pressure. Then when you take the two halves apart you have a finished one piece hull. It needs to get to 200c to fully process. Twintex looks like a bulky cloth before it is processed.

All the best

Gareth

There is a lot of elitist, high-tech snobbery on this open forum, and it discourages a lot of sailors from participating in the discussion because they are afraid their boat is going to be bashed.

Yeah! That's me and my Wave -- high tech snobbery at its best.
Rick

Sweet boat

Never heard of a dart 16