Like this? http:/
The program is still alive in Seattle. Meeting with the City of Kirkland today.
A Day on the Lake
will be held June 14, at Marina Park in Kirkland on Lake Washington. Program will include
Fast and Fun
six Waves from Sail Sand Point. Also kayaking, Parasailing, and Heart of Sailing Foundation, a program that introduces sailing to children with developmental disabilities. We hope to also get them out on the Waves. Volunteer Cat Sailors will be on the Waves to help out, and get the kids on the tiller.
Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle, WA
with programs also at Houghton Beach Kirkland and Mercer Island this year.
Just to set things straight: I don't hate mono hulls any more than the next cat sailor 😉 My Opti-killer sub-title was meant as a joke. The point was that I would like to know if there is a cat that is : cheap, light and easy for a couple of kids. I'll definitely keep an eye on the F12 in this respect. (Waves are very rare in Europe though I think they would be almost ideal).
I have sailed mono hulls almost exclusively 'till almost two years ago. OTOH, maybe its like giving up smoking, the quitters themselves often turn into the most militant anti-smoking activists...
I just think Opti's are boxy, slow and ugly. I actually like lasers very much, so I certainly don't just hate all monohulls.
I'd love for my son and daughter to be able to blast across the surface the way only cats and surfboards really can.
Whenever I see kids in Opti's I get the impression they are either working hard or fighting (in any significant wind), kids on cats always just seem to be having fun! More like dancing than fighting. Besides cat sailing is certainly more socially engaging for kids because they hardly ever sail alone.
I guess there's really no substitute for the Optimist as a learner boat at the moment. When the time comes I'll see if I can build something for them myself. Maybe Richard Woods' Pixie would be suitable. Building a boat together sounds like the perfect male-bonding exercise. Either that or the basis of an eternal feud...
Nothing personal Dennis, I just want to point out an issue to everybody who reads this thread and are using your post as an example.
If an opti sailor loving his boat and his sailing read the above, how would he feel?
I think we are too free with our thoughts on the forum. Posts with expressions like this pops up often, and that reflects badly back on ourself. I am sure we have Opti sailors visiting this forum and what would they think about catamaran sailors after reading this? Now Dennis was the unfortunate example (sorry Dennis) but I see the same happening between catamaran classes also. It is very easy to forget that this forum is open for reading for the whole world..
If you are about to go to the investment of building a boat, ask first. There are builders of Pixies, Quattros, F12s, F16s and whatever here. I for sure would not spend the money and time to build an
old
design like the Pixie today, but opinions will vary..
I understand where you're coming from Rolf. I did not intend to hurt anybodies feelings. The problem is that I sometimes find it difficult to formulate politically correct opinions within a reasonable time frame that still say what I mean! The few Opti-lovers I know mostly like the boats for sentimental reasons, not for their aesthetics.
As a cat sailor I am all too familiar with disparaging remarks. Like cats are not 'real' boats, have no grace or style etc etc... Everyone is entitled to their opinions I guess and tastes differ.
I'll be sure to consider the age of the design when and if I go to build one. Cheap to build will be a major criterion though... Could be tough with one of the more racing oriented boats...
Dennis: Where do you live?
There are a few people in Holland who are trying to grow the Dragoon class. IMHO the Dragoon is a great cat for young sailors and adults alike.
What they do is they get a parent to sail with their kid against other kids and when they reach a certain level or age the parent stops and the kids sail with each other.
(I can PM you with more info if you want).
If you are looking for a small learner cat, there is a Hobie Advance for sale now:
http:/
edit:
The word
opti-killer
is used quite often, mosly in reference to this little boat:
http://www.openbic.com/
Lots of interesting thoughts here, so I'll give my two cents as well.
First of all, I sailed and raced the Opti for two years. And as many of you correctly has pointed out, the boat is very slow, it has a very poor hull design hydrodynamically speaking, and a low tech rig. The boat is also impossible to sail two up. However, my experience from sailing it is that exactly because of the poor hull design and the low tech rig the boat gave very instant and direct feedback when you did something wrong or right, thus making it a very good learner boat. Because of its bathtub chaped hull it required a very, very good feel when riding waves, both upwind and downhill. This is of course important in any sailing boat, but especially important in the oppy as you truly did kill your speed if you didn't do it right.
As already mentioned, the rig made the boat possible to handle in hairy conditions. With a kicker and a spri-pole you easily learned the basics for sail trim. The sail design also required that the sailor could master the technique of
riding American
(don't know if that's a Norwegian expression) which means you heel the boat to windward to get the top of the sail as high as possible in light conditions. As the hull is rather boxy in shape this required quite a bit of training and balance to master well. In rougher conditions the boat would plane on the waves, making it a wet but very fun ride. As in multis, in these conditions you had to be careful not to stick you bow in. This is also the case for other dinghies, but owning a Laser myself I know that it is far harder to keep an oppy on plane than the Laser, as the Laser's hull to a certain degree does the job for you.
So to me it seems there is a bigger problem finding a boat that kids can take up after the Oppy. Here in Norway most sailors go from the Oppy to the Europe dinghy, which in short is a milder version of the Laser, but very expensive.
It dont seem very logical to me making the kids start out in a boat which is hard to sail?
What would you have decided on if you could go from the Opti into a cat with spi and trapeze or the Europe? Assume both classes had equal numbers locally but only the Europe had any numbers nationally.
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J. Castelo Branco (white castle), sailing director of Caicaras Club, Ipanema/Rio, agrees with you 100%. He went on to build a small fleet of maxi-Optimists able to carry two adults!
The class is now knowned as
Castelao
(big castle).
Hey Dennis, did you report your cat launch already?
Hi Andinista,
I did report buying my Nacra 5.2, but I did not cross-post it to all the threads I started while looking for advice...
I have yet to launch the boat, it was snowing over here only a few days ago. Next month I think I'll get around to that. We are in the middle of buying a house, so that could impact the launch date somehow...
Tony, thanks for the link. The advance looks very nice. I'm not looking for a boat right now though. Just trying to plan ahead!
We will be moving to Vlissingen in a couple of months, and sailing at
Cat club Zeeland
, on the North Sea.
Hmmmm. The bic o'pen looks like a promising toy that could be car topped when I am too lazy to tow the cat, as I often sail alone and would like to sail after work. I could thow the bic on the roof of the car the night before.......I wonder what the pricing on the bic is like?
Ok, sorry for the hijack. I'm a big sunfish advocate, as I started out in a sunfish around the age of 7 or 8. It was a good little boat, I could take a friend out if I wanted.
Having never sailed an opti, I don't know the boat. I do know that I usually see kids in the 5-7 range sailing them.
The Bic is a cool boat. I sailed it 2 years ago, I definitely fit in it better than an Opti! The no bailing advantage is HUGE!!! But I don't forsee it taking over Optis. My friend is in charge of promoting it in North America... the marketing strategies and effort they are putting into carrying it out is really unique and exciting. Check out the Miami Bic O'pen Un-Regatta video on youtube, the kids are definitely having fun.
LaserPerformance (formerly Vanguard) has introduced the Bug this year. Their approach to a new Opti, similar rig and idea to the Bic O'Pen, obviously direct competition. Theres a clip on youtube from the london boat show about it: http:/
Just brush the snow off the tramp and get out on it!!!.. bring and ice pick with you if you need to break the ice off your trailer wheels!!!!!
hehe
Dennis, I felt the same way until I saw a fleet(50+)of Opti's at Lake Eustis while racing the N20. I got a whole new impression of the junior fleet and Opti Fleet. My 8yo has an Opti and a H14, and although he prefers the H14 for the fun factor, the Opti racing is really cool. Tons of kids, and lots of head to head racing in many fleets of different skill levels. There is no other boat offering that kind of racing anywhere in the world. And yes he has sailed my Laser, but he is not ready for that boat or the H14 in any significant wind.
I remember in the 70's when I saw my 1st NACRA, I thought it was the ugliest cat I had ever seen, mostly because all I had ever seen was H14's and H16's. I later owned a 5.2 as my 1st cat...funny how we can be so impressionable by a certain
look
Guess you are right Dave,
if my son turns out to like racing, I guess he needs to go with whatever gives him the best competition at first. It would probably do him little good if he was the only one sailing a small cat. OTOH, a small cat would definitely have an obvious 'coolness' advantage.
Good point on the Nacra vs Hobie. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. (My first cat still IS a Nacra 5.2 BTW)
Dennis:
I think Cat Club Zeeland is currently the center of Hobie Dragoon youth catsailing, you will meet Geert there who runs the program.
OK, thanks Tony, I'll keep my eyes peeled...
Apparently I am the exception to the rule, but I learned on a Sunfish. My parents bought two of them (they can be found really cheap in good condition if you look carefully), and my mom taught my sister and I to sail them when we were 9. Last summer I got tired of my boat (not exciting enough on average days) so I got a job and purchased a Hobie 14 standard, which is currently being upgraded to turbo.
One guy at the club has a Wave, which he races regularly, and I have found that my 14 is slightly faster. The only problem is that it can't take passengers well. Still, some light kids might be able to sail one. I'm to old and big for that ( 17 years old, 155 lbs), although I did take a friend out once when the race was cancelled (it was blowing 28 mph- fun times).
Ok Im going to date myself.. I learnt on a VJ http://fly.to/veejay
But is the f12 designed for 5-10 years olds to sail solo? or is it the
next boat
?
next boat
?
It depends on the sail size, risk apetite and number of kids on board.
Kids in this age range can sail the F12 two up normally. They can also choose to take some risk and sail singlehanded below the ideal weight. Parents who don't like that risk would simply rig a smaller sail.
At least the VJ looks fast and furious...
The F12 looks promising but I don't know where that is headed... It appears the target audience for the design is undefined. Maybe who buys what and how many will decide where it goes?
I believe the old VJ was the fastest sharpie hulled boat, for length, at that time. When I was growing up only in cyclone winds were races canceled and then only because the safety boat was getting swamped. On a tight shy in a blow we used o keep up with the I14s.. Helps if one has a light weight boat and a low aspect rig in those conditions.. Having the ablilty to have effectively two kids on trap also helps!! Also we used woolen
jumpers
to keep us warm. The added advantage is 4 wet wool layers was almost as much as I weighted at that time!! Great boat but not for the faint hearted..
Boats like the VJ, mini skiffs (6, 8, 10 & 12) and later Flying Ant & Cherub, I suspect account for the great strength in Aussie and NZ sailing skill levels and boat design leadership in past generations.
I believe the old VJ was the fastest sharpie hulled boat, for length, at that time. When I was growing up only in cyclone winds were races canceled and then only because the safety boat was getting swamped. On a tight shy in a blow we used to keep up with the I14s.. Helps if one has a light weight boat and a low aspect rig in those conditions.. Having the ablity to have effectively two kids on trap also helps!! Also we used woolen
jumpers
to keep us warm. The added advantage is 4 wet wool layers was almost as much as I weighted at that time!! Great boat but not for the faint hearted..
Boats like the VJ, mini skiffs (6, 8, 10 & 12) and later Flying Ant & Cherub, I suspect account for the great strength in Aussie and NZ sailing skill levels and boat design leadership in past generations.
In my mind the F12 has a very clear target audience as a first boat for the
tweens
. Ideally the class will promote safe and enjoyable racing and social sailing.
My own personal goal for the class is to gain ISAF
recognised
status by the end of 2010.
There has been a lot of talk here and in other places about the need to develop a suitable youth cat class but it won't happen without a few people putting in the time and effort required to kick start it. Everyone reading this is a cat enthusiast, so if you have kids of the right age and so do some of the people you sail with and against talk to them about the idea of building an instant fleet. If you build a few boats together they will cost less than many of you spend on sails each year and you'll quickly have the critical mass required to encourage other people to join you.
The other advantage of F12 is that as a new box rule the
best solution
is yet to be found, so any budding cat designer's out there (you know its you) can have a go at designing and building their own boat on a scale that won't blow the bank if your idea doesn't fly. I'm more than happy to provide technical assistance to people going down this path.
Chris Tucker
...if you have kids of the right age and so do some of the people you sail with and against talk to them about the idea of building an instant fleet. If you build a few boats together they will cost less than many of you spend on sails each year and you'll quickly have the critical mass required to encourage other people to join you.
Chris Tucker
Another advantage is the price of the plans. Tell them.
I know about Chris's free plans! He gave me a set and they sure look great.
My kids are not old enough yet but I'm still quite interested. Besides I have been wanting to build a boat for a long time. Maybe an F12 could fit the bill.
as chris puts it:
The other advantage of F12 is that as a new box rule the
best solution
is yet to be found
That is what I think will need to happen before
mass adoption (wouldn't that be nice!)
can happen.
I think the Optis are so popular because of the KISS principle (and no, I don't mean Dereck Kelsall's version).
I also think the rest of this topic deserves to be in the F12 forum BTW.
I think Mary hit it right on-
If your child likes racing [and steering], you are going to have to give up your own racing for maybe years to take your child to Opti regattas. Most catamaran sailors are not willing to make that sacrifice.
My daughter is years behind most Opti kids in her skippering skills since she
wasted
so much time crewing for me, and she started THAT late compared to the Optis. It's going to take her a long time to catch up, and maybe she'll never do that because she still doesn't have all summer to race. We also don't have a local yacht club with a junior racing program (I don't count one hour each way as local). I did give up some of my
good
racing early on by training up a young crew (and a 10 year old girl on a Hobie 20 is NOT the optimum crew), and now I'm giving up more possible success by letting her steer when we still sail together (although maybe she'll be better than I am pretty quickly; She's starting earlier than I did.) Big plus again, though, provided we both find crews, we can double stack the 16 and 20 and both of us get to race. We COULD do that in Lasers, too, but both of us prefer real boats 🙂 I love to come to work on Monday and all the other parents are talking about spending all weekend watching soccer, and I say,
I raced WITH my daughter.
OK, I'm selfish, but that time together has to count for something, right? I know firsthand she earned those bruises 🙂
All I know is that when we were able to
share
a youth event with the Optis, all those kids came in for packing up and coaching debriefs (with a nice breeze still blowing). The cat kids stayed out for another hour on their own, reaching back and forth and trying to flip. Looked like fun to me. I also heard one young lad tell his mother
Those Hobies look cool, Mom
, and she replied
Yes, but they may be too fast for us
. !! I think she made a convert right there; just may take a while 🙂
I say let 'em train on the Optis, then move in and steal 'em.
Well, look at all the people who give up sailing to take their kids to soccer games and little league. It's the same thing when you take your kids to Opti regattas. And let's say it wasn't Optis...let's say it was small catamarans and those catamarans had a network like the Optimists have. Would most catamaran sailors, even then, give up their own regatta sailing for years to take their kids to the youth events?
Won't happen with my kids, at least if any of my genes transfered through. I'm one of the few that is actually more coordinated while inebriated. They don't have a chance at anything that requires catching or throwing.
Why not hand the tiller over to the kids on a full sized beach cat. Most probably can't handle the main sheet too well, but that's easy enough for a crew/dad to handle. I think it would probably take some serious patience but its a heck of alot cheaper than building, buying, storing, and transporting a second boat. Plus it would give you a chance to really coach the kid, vs sending it out to gets its butt kicked.
or, am I way off in left field? I don't have kids, so I am actually shooting in the dark here.