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"Parking" stopping the catamaran, *hands free*

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hobie1616
(@hobie1616)
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Did it look anything the guys in "Serie 2"

http://www.torsten-hengstmann.de/segeln/download/videos.htm

That was Dean.


 
Posted : March 28, 2006 5:24 pm
Jake Kohl
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I don't think the monohulls park because it takes so much effort to get them up to speed again.

Why would that matter if they are just waiting around between races?

You know? I do race my Hunter 23 from time to time and we don't ever try to park it. Perhaps I'll try - but the boat is so easy to sail that it's not really a big deal to keep moving about. Secondly, I suspect that it will handle so poorly when it's not moving that it won't be very controllable.


 
Posted : March 28, 2006 5:28 pm
Gary
 Gary
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When you are parked, you don't have steerage until you accelerate enough to get some flow over your rudder. A mono hull would take a long time to gain that steerage. Therefore, parking a mono hull would mean giving up control of being able to steer enough to avoid a collision.

Since we are able to power up our rudders so quickly, parking is practical. For a mono hull to give up their steerage in order to relax, would not be a true way to relax since they'd be worried about some numb-skull driving into them while they are comprimised.

GARY


 
Posted : March 28, 2006 6:23 pm
Gary
 Gary
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I dont think you can set a beach cat to self tend in anything but the lightest winds.

Oh yes you can!

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Now check this out. No exaggeration here and Bill Mattson is my witness, crew to authenticate the following:

In a wind funnel portion of the Santa Barbara Channel the channel , known as Windy Lane, we had been sailing for about 7 hours without a biology break; no nourishment, no potty break. For the past 3 hours we had been beating up windy lane, 25 miles off shore, in seas that had become 10' with the occasional 12 footers for the past 3 hours. The wind was blowing 25+ and we wanted to continue beating for another couple of hours. To use the head, we would have to strip off our pfd's, trap harnesses, spray suits. Bill also had a wet suit on under the spray suit.

We stopped the boat long enough to do this and to grab a bit of nourishment and a bottle of juice. We drifted downwind 1/4 mile but our bows launched squarely over each wave. The boat was stable enough to stand on it, as long as you held on to a shroud for dear life.

Watching a tight mainsail invert in 25 knots winds with 10' seas while planted in irons makes you pucker. I get butterflies in my stomach just remembering it. But it works!

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When bigger wind and waves are present you do need to continue to steer the boat otherwise you could tack and be blown over.

Oh no you don't. See above.

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The I20 I've found is impossible to park. There is a constant need to be attentive. The boat will tack suddenly and take off if you don't have the tiller in your hand.

I have heard that said, way too many times. I don't believe that I can't plant an I20. I look forward to proving so.

GARY


 
Posted : March 28, 2006 6:29 pm
Jake Kohl
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I don't think parking an I20 is impossible but the advent of self tacking jibs makes this quite difficult to achieve. It certainly behaves much differently than my F18 and caught us by surprise on several starts last weekend. I found myself several times surprised in irons or with forward speed that we (I) had not accounted for.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 10:20 am
Gary
 Gary
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If a self tacker is causing a problem, then furl that stinking jib. Cat's without roller furlers on their jibs are dangerous.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 12:17 pm
(@jalani)
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Cat's without roller furlers on their jibs are dangerous.

Really can't accept a ridiculous statement like that!


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 12:21 pm
MaryAWells
(@maryawells)
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It's apples and oranges. Gary is speaking in terms of someone who routinely sails alone offshore in dangerous waters. In that case, a roller-furling jib is probably essential for safety reasons. If you are doing round-the-buoys racing on protected waters with lots of other boats nearby, it is not that big a deal.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 12:41 pm
Gary
 Gary
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Really can't accept a ridiculous statement like that!

Okay, then don't. But I will attempt to add some qualifiers to my statement so that you or others like yourself may find it more palatable. Here is my attempt:

Cat's that have jibs that cause the skipper to be in a situation where the jib is in control of the boat and the skipper is not in control of the boat because of the jib should have roller furlers in place so as to give the skipper the ability to get rid of the sail that is causing him to not be able to control the boat.

I feel your frustration in your view of my remark. It is the same feeling I get when somebody says that they can't stop their boat or that a particular type of boat is unstoppable. Especially when they blame their jib.

I say, if you have a jib arrangement that disallows you to maintain control of your boat at all times, then that jib has no business being on the boat without a way to douse it.

If you can't accept my statements and you find them to be too ridiculous, fine. I'm okay with that as long as you are okay with me having those opinions.

It's a good forum with a few members who might have rediculous opnions.

GARY


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 12:56 pm
(@jalani)
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Everyone's entitled to an opinion, what is not an entitlement is stating something that is just an opinion as fact. So, yeah, I'm OK with you having opinions....

You're right, it is a good forum and to the most part, good natured.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 1:22 pm
Jake Kohl
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If a self tacker is causing a problem, then furl that stinking jib. Cat's without roller furlers on their jibs are dangerous.

Certainly the racing trend is to do away with the roller furler. I used to think that I always wanted to have one until I really needed it in a squal. The best we could do was to get it in one nasty knot with the top flapping away relentlessly. The F18 class is moving away from the roller furling requirement as is the Nacra 20 class. The Nacra 20 class even has a jib available now with two full length battens near the top that prevent it from furling all together.

It's kind of like building a bare-bones racer (like how race cars don't usually have sideview mirrors and other non-essentials)..certainly if you are racing in a fleet it's not a big deal to go without the furler.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 1:59 pm
(@isotope42)
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Well,

The very first time I beat a Nacra 5.2 was solely due to my roller furling jib. The winds were up that day and we both decided to leave the beach on main alone (my jib furled and his on shore). Once we were out on the course, the wind lightened up enough that I was able to unfurl the jib and after that, the other skipper didn't really stand a chance.

It's also very handy to furl the jib when parking between races. So, I'm not about to try taking it off.

Regards,
Eric


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 2:18 pm
Gary
 Gary
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Everyone's entitled to an opinion, what is not an entitlement is stating something that is just an opinion as fact.

Sorry you confused my opiniated outburst as fact. But just in case somebody did think it was fact, then they'd be correct. It can be easily argued that cats, with or without furlers, are dangerous.

GARY


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 3:02 pm
Gary
 Gary
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I guess it is the cut, shape of the self tackers that dont' take to furling very well.

GARY


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 3:05 pm
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Gary:

I use a 190 square ft Pentex reacher to go with Pentex squaretop when racing Portsmouth in the Wed night races on the lake. I HAVE to furl it in over 12 knots to weather as it is to much to handle solo. I also love to furl it between races. Don't know anything about self tackers. System works great for me. Each his own.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 3:35 pm
MaryAWells
(@maryawells)
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Jib furling, per se, is not specifically the issue. What is dangerous is the inability to quickly reduce sail, whether by furling or dropping the jib and by dropping or reefing the main when a squall is approaching -- and that can happen with very little notice. Being able to furl the jib is obviously the quickest way to reduce sail on a small cat.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 4:09 pm
Gary
 Gary
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I can drop a main if I need too also. But if it was blowing so hard that I needed to get the main down, then there is a good chance that I wouldn't want a jib up.

My personal choice is to never have a cat with a sail that can not be doused in a reasonable amount of time. I furler on the jib is pretty crucial to my concerns.

I'm still mystified by the apparant acceptance by many of the claims that Inter 20's can't be stoped unless the tiller is constantly tended.

Won't somebody who has hove to an Inter 20 or otherwise parked it with the tiller tied down, step in here and tell us about it?

GARY


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 5:14 pm
(@Anonymous 14670)
Posts: 49
 

Yes this is true; however, this does not back up your original statement - cats w/o furler are dangerous. Could you elucidate on this as to particularly when we should be cautioned?


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 5:47 pm
(@tornadokc247)
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OK, my "OPINION" on dangerous cats...

I've sailed such a cat (Tornado) all my life. Have I ever been in a difficult spot because of the non-furling jib. No. (...that's a FACT, not an opinion BTW ). Being unable to stop a boat b/c of a non-furling/dousing jib seems odd to me. Ease it and head up, no?

I've also sailed Tornados in gales under jib alone after dropping the mainsail. She sails beautifully and controllably in such config. Ya, tacking/pointing is pretty tough, but you can always "tack" by gybing around the long way.

Mike.
Opinions expressed are those of the author...


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 7:27 pm
jes58
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I can drop a main if I need too also. But if it was blowing so hard that I needed to get the main down, then there is a good chance that I wouldn't want a jib up.

GARY

Why would you not want your jib if you drop your main in heavy air – how are you going to sail? This is almost rule # 1 when heavy weather hits and you have no reef points. AAMOF this is a drill that I had practiced a few times when I started to venture out single handed, and my Prindle sailed very well.


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 7:57 pm
Gary
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Mike,

I've also sailed on jib only. And as I *think that* I recall, I was able to sail as high as 75 or 80 degrees off the wind if I really dragged the rudders a lot.

Were you actually able to tack? I definitely just jibed from tack to tack but did not even think that I would be able to tack.

On the same test day, I sailed bare stick only. I forget the exact results, but I was able to sail something higher than DDW in that configuration.

I do remember sailing a keeled mono hull into the wind with stick only. I was in a proteted marina. Had I been outside, the waves and current would surely have overcome the amount of lift I was generating of the mast alone.

I had GPS tracks of these tests but they all got fried when I lost a hard drive.

GARY


 
Posted : March 29, 2006 8:01 pm
(@mhill)
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It is also my experience that furlers are not required. They are a nice convenience but in no way required.

I love my furler on my Tiger. It's nice to be able to furl prior to beaching to make your approach easier.

I have never been able to successfully furl my jib when the wind was above 20 upwind. The jib gets caught funny toward the top of the sail and ends up flapping like crazy. It's also very hard to furl going downwind in a big breeze for the same reason. It takes a bit of practice to get it to furl properly.

So in my experience a furler is for the most part not required. But it is an added convenience.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com


 
Posted : March 30, 2006 12:27 pm
(@tornadokc247)
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Tacking with the jig alone can be done if you get the waves just right and use backwinding to to assist. I've done it only a couple of times...much easier to take the long way around.


 
Posted : March 30, 2006 12:48 pm
 JBR
(@jbr)
Posts: 186
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Regarding the need for jib furlers for safety/control, doesn't it depend to some degree if you're talking about a boat with vs without a battened jib? Obviously you can't use a furler with a battened jib, but my question is with a battened jib wouldn't you have so much stability in the draft profile that you wouldn't need one? When overpowered, just release the jib sheet, let it luff, and it won't flog much. When sailing a spi boat downwind I thought that many people just release the jib sheet, even in lots of wind, but I don't think that would work well with a non-battened jib.

A related question: many battened jibs I've seen come with three battens, with the foot of the sail frequetly without one. If there is any flogging in higher winds it's at the bottom. So why not use 4 battens?

For those of you with battened jibs, how many battens do you have and how well behaved is your sail? Do you ever wish you could furl it? Do you ever just release the main sheet and is it then depowered, out of the equation, and not flogging?

Jerry


 
Posted : March 30, 2006 3:49 pm
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