Political Science

This where the problem lies. Bullying the rest of the world like we are doing now does not bring friends.

Basically it is not "nobody likes us", but "nobody likes our foreign, energy & environemental policies and the associated global mess".

Unfortunately, because of the 2004 elections it looks from the outside that the american people approves it.

Guys, I don't think this is the place for a political discussion, and I am really surprised it hasn't turned into a flame war.. But the fact is that the US has interfered in many places that it really shouldn't have such as panama, grenada, Veitnam, Nicaragua, Cuba (I mean bay of pigs) etc, etc. And ok, Desert storm seems legit, but this latest Iraq war is completely ridiculous. Absolutely no way that Sadam was any threat, even the Israelies publicly stated this and questioned the US reasons for going to war. In fact Sadam was keeping the place together. Bush knew this, that's why he wouldn't let Hans Blix finish the job and a formal report. But the US has done a number of great deeds, such as WW2 and others which the world really is greatful. Where we REALLY have a problem now is Iran, and north korea and now the US is already caught up in another war and can't do anything about them..
Watch what happens to Hugo Chavez..He will either have an "accident" or the cia funded "rebels" will overthrow him..Why? just because Bush doesn't like what he is saying? The US media is already conditioning the US people that Chavez is a"Bad Guy"...

Absolutely no way that Sadam was any threat, /quote]

Gassing the Kurds was sufficient reason for me! Forget American foreign policy, why wasn't the UN more involved. Isn't that why we have the UN! Someone should have done something about Rwanda and God knows how many other places around the world.

My disagreement with the America bashers is that you are always willing to do nothing, and then scream bloody murder when someone says enough! For you folks nothing is sacred, nothing is worth dying for.

I have to go look at a trailer now, but. . .
"I'll be back!"

btw- has anyone seen "Hotel Rwanda"?

 

Could well be, we were part of that. Another NATO action that the UN didn't approve and later turned out to be one big smoke and mirrors excersize. KLA staged massacres and such to get Nato in and drive the Serbs out for them. Lets not go there now.

Wouter

Dave, I'm affraid you give our CIA way too much credit, they can't even find Osama Bin Laden! There is no way they can do anything about Hugo Chavez! Hey, come to think of it, Castro is still around, right? See?

If you want to see how they operate (poorly) pick up a copy of "Killing Pablo" about the CIA trying to catch and kill Pablo Escobar, the Columbian Drug Lord. It took them years of trying and the guy was living in downtown Bogata! He was finally shot dead by Columbian troops, with some help from the CIA, but talk about a F'd up mission! It's no wonder they can't find Osama.

In the days immediately after the 9-11 terrorist attacks which killed about 3,000 civilians, I was all for putting a couple NUKES into Saudi Arabia. Why? Because 15 of the 19 Hi Jackers were Saudi. Osama is a Saudi. They are all receiving financial aid from Saudi's. Why we went into Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia is way beyond me....but you know Bush is best buddies with the Saudi's, it's all about the oil. The Saudi's don't like us, they like our money. We are funding terrorism every time we fill up at the pump.

On Iraq, you are right, Sadam was holding the place together. That's why Bush's Dad didn't take him out in 1992!

And to you outside the US, you know that Bush DIDN'T get more of the people's votes than Al Gore in 2,000. He won on the "Electoral College" technicality and 3,000 Florida old ladies voted for Pat Buchanan by mistake, becuase they couldn't read the ballots! In 2004 he only got 52% of the vote, which means 48% of us (very nearly half) did NOT vote for him so please do not think that we all support his actions. His "aproval rating" is down to 42% I think.

Don't give us this "gassing Kurds" nonsense Pete.

That happened halveway during the 1980's when US support for Saddam was on its peak and even remained so for a while after.

Pretty bloody late to do something about this some shy 20 years later. Or can we expect the US to invade Rwanda somewhere around 2015 in order to stop any more hutu's being slaughtered ?

One reason why US receives some flak from the outside is its enduring practice of providing complete unbelievable justifications and pretty much insulting everybodies intelligence.

Wouter

Yes I agree that that the Saudi problem is also a big one. I guess the US can't lean on them too much..They buy a lot of F16s..

Pete: I can comfort you with that we and the danes are probably the next big-time targets. Seems like two of our smaller (5000copys a day) newspapers has pissed off the united muslim world by printing some caricatures of Mohammed. Count is now up to three burned embassies and they are making flags to burn like it was toiletpaper.

I agree with you that you should think more domestic. You are about to be passed by China and India if you dont get your economy and politics together.
When you take a high-profile, you will also get the attention that comes with it. Especially so when you let your military visit other lands "in force". Doing humanitarian aid is a far cry from pre-emptive invasions. If you did not strike out on your own, but went trough the UN instead, you would not be in the position you are today. But your political leadership obviously can not accept that.
As for taking the gloves off, the US has had gauntlets on for a good while now.

If you are getting tired of hearing about muslims killing americans, how tired do you think muslims are of having their family members killed by americans? What do you belive the body count is on both sides since the 70s? I dont know for sure, but I think you have ended a couple of more muslim lives than they have killed americans. From an outside viewpoint, it is your heavy handed and rough shoed dealings with the arab world that have brought you in the position you are today.
You have had one muslim terrorist attack in the US (am I wrong?), and a terrible one at that. It was executed by extremists, the same ones that are just now whipping the muslim world into beliveing that danes and norwegians hates muslims. You have lots of muslims in the US, even Mike Tyson converted to Islam while in prison, and they dont bother you much, do they? It's the extremists you need to watch and catch, but not muslims in general. Whats happing today is the extremists dream come true.
If Martin Luther had not started the reformation within the church, and we had missed the renaissance, we could be where the muslim world is today. Just look at muslim women and how they strive for change every day. Historically, christians and jews could find a safe haven in muslim countries (not today). The muslim world missed both reformation and the renaissance, two outmost important parts of our history. Then their leaders became more fundamental and their interpretation of Islam change for the worse. Effectively, they never left the middle age.
I wonder if they are so angry becouse they see how we westernes live, and they dont understand why they dont have the same rights and opportunities (beeing f*ked over by europeans and others for the last 200 years dont help). Instead they are beaten around the head by their mullahs if they dare to think different. Working for a reformation or renaissance would probably get the average muslim killed.

Sorry for rambling on and being long winded. I see for myself here in little Norway how many muslim immigrants fail to integrate with us ethnic norwegians. Instead they gather in what I would call ghettos and try to change everything around them to be similar to what they left when they escaped their countries. That is really a problem, and who do I blame? Our government who failed to demand from them that they learnt our language and customs so they at least had a chance to integrate. Now they are going after our freedom of speech and free press..
Feeling victimized when getting critique for your own foreign policy is turning things on its head and really should make a lot of questions come to mind. Besides, if you go abroad you will experience that you are welcome most places on the globe. Just leave the weaponry at home and do business instead (or dont do business if you dont like the guys).

A question. How is it possible for a guy who need daily dialysis to run around the mountains in Pakistan/Afghanistan and escape the collective special forces community, intelligence community, satelittes and the military with a large reward on his head? Why have you not caught bin Laden and let him meet justice yet? I supported the invasion of Afghanistan fully, and would like to see him in front of a court in Haag or even Nurnberg.

Pete: What tank did you drive in Germany. M48 or something earlier? I have two years on the upgraded Leopard I (bet you saw it while in Germany) with gyro stabilized fire-control. Always cool to meet a fellow cavaleryman

Hey, I just thought of something after reading your post on Muslims in Norway. I have read a book called "Death of the West" by our own right wing politician/news comentator, Pat Buchanan. (the same who was running for US President in 2000 from post above). In that book he talks about the eventual take over of all of Europe, then the US, by Muslims, without ever firing a shot. How? Birth rates. According to his research, since the advent of the birth control pill in the 1960's, European and US women have basically shut down the production of babies. They entered the work force and stopped having kids. Their birth rate is well below 2.0, more like 1.2 I think is what he said. That won't sustain the population.

Meanwhile the European/US Muslim Immigrant birth rate is more than double that. 2.9 or 3.4 depending on which country you are looking at. Spain had the highest Muslim birth rate (and Muslim imigran population), France was second I think... but he says that by the year 2050, the Muslims will have more than 50% of the population of the traditional western European countries and have a very big impact on the US population as well, like 1/3. Think about that!

Hey, I'm doing my part, I have 4 kids, but the rest of you SLACKERS need to get busy and start pushing out some kiddies! And more than 2! Wouter, why isn't that female crew of yours knocked-up yet?? Get on it! You can still race your F16 Solo! And I want to see the video.

Now you know why the Catholic Church has always opposed birth control. There is much security in numbers!

And, we are selling the Saudi's F15's, but they don't fly them very well!

The Israeli's get the F16's and they also get Nukes. The Palestinians and Iranians are lucky the US has not allowed Isreal to use them yet but it's going to happen "by mistake" pretty soon, with the new Palestinian Hammas Government and the Iranians, telling the World they are going to wipe Isreal off the planet. The truth is, the Israelie's have the weaponry to wipe both Iran and Palestine off the map in about 10 minutes...Get ready, it's coming!

Not exactly a pacifist point of view!!! Sounds like civilization clash.

You seem happy to see this coming. Fight, fight. Some are really starving for fighting and killing ---> I call them extremists (west side and arab side as well).

Some others like me just see the absolute madness going on with the thousands killed as collateral damage. It is simply disgusting.

By the way IMHO, Hamas got there because of the Bush/Sharon tandem handling the palestinian problem.

Slow down there Tiger, you are putting words in my mouth. I said I got OUT of the US military because I didn't agree with our forign policy. I'd rather sail and drink beer than blow up other countries, trying to force democracy down their throats. By the way, why isn't Bush trying to force Democracy on the Saudi Royal Family?? And anyone who has not served in our military is not qualified to critisize it because you have no idea how it really works, you only know what you see on CNN, which is usually 180 out from reality. John Kerry had every right to critisize it, Bush however, only used it to duck Viet Nam and never really served! When is Bush going to send his two daughters to Iraq?

http://www.break.com/index/presidential.html

Here's our fearless leader now!

But I digress... It would not make me cry to see Isreal defend themselves from the Arabs, with nukes if need be. If Iran and Hammas say they will not allow Isreal to exist, what do you think it's going to come to?

Do you really believe that any country throwing nukes around is a good idea. One nukes the other, they hit back. Radition posioning for a vast area.

Not a good idea.

They just have the little nukes. We have the big ones... And...I said DEFEND themselves, as in retaliate, after Iran shoots their one nuke.

But, it could always end up like this: http://funnyjunk.com/pages/world.htm

Sorry about those Kangaroos...

it would get really complicated if they used nukes and I don't think they would unless they were under direct threat of invasion with a strong chance of losing the war. But, we would never let that happen anyway so it is a non-issue for them to use nukes.
I for one, sort of agree that it might be interesting to see a big knock down drag out fight though to settle the whole thing (but this probably wouldn't happen and wouldn't "settle" anything anyway)

BTW- do you realize that this is the 2nd most "replied-to" thread in the catsailor forum.. and it doesn't have anything to do with sailing..

Yeah, it's amazing everyone can get whipped up into a frenzy over politics and we aren't even politicians! Too bad we can't get Politicians whipped up into such a frenzy over Sailing!

Lets cool down with some german humour (yes they have humour!).
http://jm.slove.org/gc/

Whew! Another lengthy Wouter post; this time I must respond, since it is a rebuttal to my post. Mary is right, if you don't want to read political discussion, go to another post. I also find it interesting to read the views of others around the world.

As you often do, Wouter, you rebut by taking away any nuance from another's point and recasting it in a absolutist light before stiking it down. You re-create the argument into a caricature in order ot set up an easy target.

First of all, I never referred to any absolute freedom; I'm not an anarchist and I certainly understand that individuals have a compact with each other to live together in society and such a compact involves giving up some level of "absolute" freedom. It is obvious that absolute freedom would create a situation that results in generally less personal freedom for most.

The settlers you mention did live hard lives and for the most part chose them for greater freedom and greater economic opportunity. Most of them were quite committed to independence and self reliance; they wouldn't have made it on any frontier without such attibutes.

We differ in degree; you prefer to give up more freedom for a greater sense of security(?) or support and I prefer a greater degree of freedom because that allows me to accomplish more in my personal and economic life. [Personal note; I am in business for my self and have been so for my whole career.] My truism remains true in spite of you're attempt to caracturize it to knock it down. The more centralized one's economy, the less individual freedom one has. Let me add another one (the famous Lord Acton quote), power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Decentralized power and less central planning (all to a point, not to anarchy, dear Wouter) are better than the opposite. A last thought is, have you ever really examined the typical politcian and the bureaucracies they form? I don't think anyone would seriously want more of that.

So are you using the Dutch methodone support program as your example/argument against less government control over our lives? I am not familiar with your program, but we have similar ones here in the US that work to varying degrees (I am not familiar enough with them to argue the point). That example is not what I would call a refutation of my point. There has always been and always will be drug addicts in society. One could make a good argument that they need more than a drug maintenance program coupled with some counseling. Do any of these people get better (get off their drug addiction and become productive members of society) even in some small way? They may not commit crimes and that's a benefit, for certain, but the program may be only limited to ,that. AA adherents will tell you that counseling will only go so far; true release, or just protection from addiction must come from a change within. This thought will lead, inevitably to a theological discussion which won't serve our purposes here.

First. We may incercerate more per capita than any other nation but absolutely not more than all other nations combined. I'm surprized that you would express such an obviously false claim; you're smarter than that. Just put China into the equation and you can't make that claim.
Second. This fact you state has very little to do with my point about the rule of law used to reign in capitalistic activity and keep it reasonable fair (mind you, nothing in a competitive situation is completely fair).
Third. You should take more time to visit our country; its not as ruthless as you might imagine. It is full of economic activity, even among the poor. You comments below re: "the projects" and "Snoop Dog" are examples of entrepeneurship, unfortunately outside the law and most don't make the transition to legal activities like Snoop. Most end up dead by their peers as they don't follow the rule of law I talked about and include killing as a method to gain competitve advantage. I think they make my point.

Here we go again, setting up an extreme example in order to knock it down. Its not only about Bill Gates. Yes, most small businesses fail in the fist two years. Many people who start up businesses do so repeatedly until they are successful. Education is important, but doesn't really reflect on the core of this discussion.

Again, the extreme to discredit my point. This is so laborious, but, I hope, in the end somewhat instructive. Deuterium from the sea to fuel fusion is in the same category as the Alberta oil sands? Ridiculous and you know it. Don't lose credability by making such statements. One has yet to be accomplished except for brief moments in a lab the other is occurring in an economically profitable way already. Wouter!
My point is that there are reserves to get us to the next technologies. And the flex fuel technologies I'm talking about are at our doorstep, so to speak. They are not theoretical concepts that are not yet feasible, such as fuel cells.

Not a bad idea; along with the mandated flex fuel cars.

Quote:
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The US should mandate that the auto makers achieve flex fuel capability on their fleet within 2 to 3 years.

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Ah, you caught me! Actually government can play a limited role (remember not to take my points to an extreme like you have done above). Government should create some incentives, mandate some directon and let business make it happen. The mandated fuel averages are an example of this (and also an example of our progress contrary to your assertion), however, they had an unintended consequence the government planner didn't plan on and that was an increase in highway fatalities due to smaller, lighter cars being put on the roads.

See above reply

In the end, we discussed at length Capitalism versus Socialism where we do disagree to a large extent.

We can all agree that a multifacited approach to the energy crisis is necessary. Large problems are not solved with simplistic solutions. Conservation, new oil resources exploited, nuclear power, new fuels used for the world's fleet of vehicles, new energy alternatives continued to be developed to the point they are economically feasible and somewhere, down the road, a transition to a post, oil fueled world. This all has to happen. Yes, our government and many of the world's governments have not faced the impending crisis. Our government, in spite of its problems however, is not entirely immune to the will of the people. When enough people make energy solutions an issue, our governments will begin to address the issue. Each one of us must keep clamoring and making our demands heard by our legislators. This crisis of radical Islam is going to add incentive to find solutions, if for no other reason than to lessen the transfer of wealth to the mid east.

I promise (to myself as well as everyone else) to avoid such lengthy posts. Wouter, I agree with Timbo; get a girlfriend or wife and make some babies. The more babies, the shorter teh posts. I've done my part, now its up to all of you younger guys. Sailing and making love; what a combination!

DavidN
H20 781
Spring will be here soon.

David, you lost me at Hello.

HAH!!

How about we talk about sailing now

We are almost at 200 posts.. How many other threads have gone as far, this fast?

OK Guys;

Record set. BACK TO SAILING PLEASE !!!!!

Doug

Wouter:

When is gasing any civilian population nonsense!? The act is so barbaric it is outlawed even on military targets.

This last post of yours supports my premise that nothing America does is acceptable to you.

If you can, please name one thing America has done that you consider acceptable.

Pete:

Wouter's point what that the kurds were gassed with the US support (US was providing Saddam with money and weapons at this time). So invoking the kurds gas episode to justify iraq invasion is hypocritical.

Rolf:

I would not be comforted if you, the Danes or anyone else were the victims of terror attacks. My local paper printed similar cartoons just this morning. I get this sinking feeling we're spiraling into an abyss of bloodshed of historic proportions. . .

I couldn't care less if we are surpassed by India and China; then maybe everyone would be mad at them.
btw- a lot of Indian trained MDs are leaving the U.S. and going home. That is their right, but we'll be hard pressed to replace. They'll be missed! I know one of them, a fine decent man.

You can't really believe our military response has been as harsh as it could have been!

I'll get back to the rest of your post anoter time, I'm too tired right now! ( Had lunch with a really great sailor! This guy has seen and done it all! Gave me lots of good tips related to the A cat. Nice, nice man. I really have A cat fever now!)

48s!! How old do you think I am? Hell, the M-48 was. . .the tank I trained on at Ft. Knox. I left Germany in January '70 we were using the M-60, the Leopard had just come out, only saw a few of them.

This thread actually serves a good purpose. It keeps most of the political discussions, flame wars, nonsense and ideas, good and wacky, in a single place. If you don't want to read it, don't click on the thread.

Pete, I, for one , think the best thing America did for us is giving us Hobie Alter. His boats changed my life!

Arend

(isen't this a nice bridge going back to sailing?)

I agree; parsing to the extreme. Winter does strange things to people. My apologies to everyone.

It should be noted that this thread has been surprisingly polite for a political discussion.

DavidN
H20 781
Come on springtime!

My God! That loud cracking sound is Hell freezing over! Someone has finally said something good about America, or more precisely, one American.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Does this mean we should all become California surfer/sailor dudes . . . I'm in!

Nonsense! I'll have to see irrefutable proof before I believe that!