Both Hammas and Iran are IMHO just symptoms of the great clash arising between the Western and Muslim cultures, as are the riots against Danish caricatures (If we Israelis demonstrated against every anti-Semitic caricature in an Arab newspaper we'd never have time for sailing 
) and the riots in France a few months ago.
While the U.S. has finally realized the strategic danger and taken action, most of Europe is still reluctant to admit a problem exists, and must be tackled seriously. This is not to say that only a military solution exists, quite the contrary, only to point out that sticking ones head in the sand will probably not work.
As for Hammas, whilst definitely a setback for peace prospects in our volatile neighborhood, I don't believe anyone knows where we're going so early in the game. Optimistically, they may turn out to be better situated, coming from extreme ideology, to take the painful steps required for peace - After all, two of our tougher leaders, Begin and Sharon, gave up more than others. More realistically, we’ll continue battling it out militarily, economically and politically for a few more rounds 
.
Iran is a significantly more dangerous threat, regionally and globally. Once an advanced, almost Western country, they now lead the radical Muslim world in its fight against much that we hold dear - freedom, equality, and democracy. Armed with nuclear weapons and the will to use them, and joined by radical Muslims the world over, Iran endangers much more than Israel and Middle East stability.
Most Israelis are closely following the growing (albeit slowly) international efforts to stop Iran, hopefully before we reach a nuclear standoff, which would probably not end as peacefully as the cold war did.
Opher, good to hear from someone actually living there! Were those Inter 20 pictures posted a couple months back yours? It looked like a nice place to sail.
As for the sailors, this thread was initialy titled Politics, so if you only want to talk about sailing, go to another thread! 
We are here to talk politics.
So, what's up with New Zealand these days anyways??? Can an American still get a beer there or do they hate us too?
http:/
Shudder!
btw- Where do you folks get your gas? Doin' anything special with solar or wind power?
I'm guessing nuclear power is out: too big a target, to politically inflammatory.
Pete: search and you will find.
US was helping Iraq in the eighties because of their war against Iran. The famous pic of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam...
And we were supporting Osama Bin Laden and the Afgan Army when Russia was invading.
The current problem started right after the first Gulf War, after we drove the Iraqi Army out of Kuwait, we stayed there and in Saudi Arabia. This upset Osama and his boys, he wanted the US Infidels OUT of HIS country, OFF his Holy Land. We wouldn't leave, so the Muslim Extremeists, (with financial support from Saudi Patriots) started blowing our stuff up. The same applies right now in Iraq. The Insurgents want the Infidels OUT of their country.
Like Colin Powel said, "You can win the war, but it will be very difficult to win the peace."
Yes its true. In fact, Sadam asked the US if it was ok to invade Kuwait and he got the nod that it was ok..
The U.S. is not responsible for Iraq gasing the Kurds or invading Kuwait. Your saying it (collectively) doesn't make it so.
I'm still waiting for proof to the contrary.
Pete, a few comments.
Today, after the fall of the Soviet union, the US is _the_ superpower of the world. You are a known quantity and are reasonably predictable. I much prefer status quo than having China, India or others rise to be superpowers while you falter (or even fall). If you dont stop spending your money on adventures abroad, you will fall, your economy is not that strong. Go to a hardware store (or any store) and check where things are buildt, and look at your trade balance. I would be very concerned about China and India. Not military wise (yet), but economicaly.
Being mad at the chineese dont help much, they dont have freedom of speech. You do, for the time being (that is ment as a compliment).
I was not really thinking about your military actions in Iraq when I wrote that. I was thinking more on keeping prisoners without allowing them their rights or putting them on trial. Or worse, torturing them or sending them to torture under other regimes that endorse torture. But yes, your actions in Iraq has not exactly been benign. Use of WP, bad intelligence leading to smart-bombing of civilians, troops getting really jumpy and firing too soon. Lots of mistakes done due to not being prepared for what to do after the fall of Saddam. I guess the Pentagon strategist now have learnt what can happen when you invade a country with
the "swarm" strategy and dont take control over the areas you have cleaned. I dont see much you can do now in Iraq, military wise, that you have not already done? Keeping to the Geneva convension is a good thing after all.
If you think everybody hates the US, that is not true. You have lots of friends both as a nation and as a people. If I did not like you, why would I stay on this US dominated forum and even visit the US from time to time? But as friends, you must be able to hear that we dont agree or even oppose your policies. I think your current administrations foreign policy is the reason you are feeling victimized today. You had the worlds sympaties after 911, but all the scandals since.. I remember the end of the cold war with Reagan, I remember Bush Sr. and Clinton, none of them managed to break as many ties as Bush Jr's administration has.
Saddam gassed kurdi villages in the 80's. Nobody said you in the US was responsible for that. At the same time, the US supplied Saddam with weapons and supported him in the war against Iran.
Gas (or NBC) is a weapon all armed forces hope to not meet on the battlefield, but train rigorously for. I dont think gas is outlawed (but WP is).
The M-48 was in service here in Norway til 92, now replaced by Leopard I and II's. Do you still remember how to recognize the T-51's and T-72's? 
Timbo: The danger of "them" outbreeding is under public debate here. With a population of 4.5mill, it doesn't really take that much. Fortunately, many of "them" integrate and start thinking as norwegians. It's the ones who can not leave the old behind, build fanatic sects etc. we must do something about. Just look at the british bombings done by 2nd generation immigrants.
God forbid _anybody_ start flinging nukes about, even the israelis!
Opher: Good to hear a voice of sanity from Israel. The news coverage we get up here is quite pro-palestinian, but I think you are dead-right on all your points.
Rolf, we can "debate" it all day, but what can we do to STOP it? There is no stopping it, unless you live in China and are limited to a single child.
The fact is that immediately after 9-11 there was NO public outrage expressed by our own Muslim population. I think alot of them were secretly thinking "Good, it's about time..."
When push comes to shove, who's side do you think they will be on? Take a look at the riots in France.
Here's a hint, they will be on which ever side is winning. If they won't stand up and fight for their own countries, do you really think they will fight for yours? That's not their "culture". They will however, continue to out-breed the rest of us. Pick up a copy of "Death of the West." it's very interesting reading.
I'll see if I find a copy Timbo.
One thing that has been suggested (not here, but in Italy I think), is that they (where they are muslims), dont get the benefits we get when we have children. Problem is, that is discrimination..
Rolf:
It is always good to hear rational discourse.
Rightly or wrongly, I'm just not concerned with China and India. When they were very poor, their problems were relatively straight forward. As they become wealthier and more powerful, they will find the road less clear, and filled with potholes!
There is one school of thought, economically, that considers trading increasingly less valuable U.S. dollars for hard goods a very good deal. Afterall, if the U.S. falls into oblivion and you have a trove of green backs, whatta ya got!
One thing I'm very skeptical about is the term "Superpower" in my opinion it is illusory at best
Frankly, I feel pretty good about our domestic situation. Everyone who wants a job has one and there is a concensus that we have an energy problem; even if the solution is contentious.
Previously, I was refering to the devastation of WWII. Iraq hasn't suffered nearly so badly, although I expect the maimed and dying will disagree. Grieving parents surely will make no such distinction.
I almost used the phrase "collareral damage", refering to the killing and maiming of innocent people during wars. That is always regretable and glossing it over with a catchy phrase doesn't mitigate the loss or suffering, but it does dehumanize it!
While I don't condone the abuse of prisoners and absolutely despise torture, I'm not entirely sure the Geneva Convention applies in this case. I suppose I should apologize for that- it is at best a legal nicety that won't matter much to someone who's testicles are being crushed. ( please see "slippery slope" below ) { I can't describe how I feel when I see the "towers" falling and, most of all, people falling to their deaths justs before the collapse. Something reptilian crawls up out of my brainstem and I want blood,lots of it! Muslims are angry over a cartoon! I don't think they understand anger!!}
My biggest disagreement with American foreign policy ( it might better be considered domestic policy ) is the "War Powers Act" which, in essence, allows the President to wage war without a declaration of war from Congress. Once you start down that "slippery slope" things have a way of getting out of hand. Vietnam being the best or worst example.
I don't remember much about Eastern bloc armor, we did a lot of cross-traing because of chronic shortages of men and equipment (Vietnam). I was assigned a variety of tasks, not the least of which was aircraft identification and trainging with the Redeye missle, the precursor to the Stinger. And, truthfully, I was far more interested in drinking beer and chasing women!
More importantly, what the hell happened to your cross-country team!? I expect our over-rated "golden boys and girls" to collapse occasionally, but this?!
Well, I'm happy to agree to disagree.
And there is nothing I can say that I haven't said already.
Regards,
Wouter
Wouter, if you can't think of anything good to say about Ameica,you haven't seen Yellowstone!
Oh! I forgot, it may blow-up at any moment and bring an end to ciivilization as we know it! My bad 
Yellowstone? Give me Yosemite any day..
Our cross country team has let their best ski-preparers go, and pay for it now. Wrong preparation of the skis last time (no wax, but traction) and wrong athlete for the relay.
Personally, I suspect there is a lot of misuse of medicals and other techniques to enchance performance artificially. That goes for both the norwegians and others. Cycling, cross country and other endurance sports are very suspect for me.
Seems like we can go back to talking about sailing now
Any hope of you getting an A-cat this season?
Any hope of you getting an A-cat this season?
I hope to have it by mid-March just in time for the Gulfport, FL (St. Petersburg area) regatta.
But, you're not gonna believe this, I'm considering an F-16! Everything is so expensive, I just have to consider all options! Until I get an "out the door" price, all options are open!
What does that have to do with political science? Pete, you started this thread, and now you are hijacking it back to sailing. Make up your mind. 
I really liked the big sky over the flat lands when I was over there. I really looked like a deeper kind of blue. I put it down to less moisture in the higher layers of the atmosphere.
But having said this, let me note one thing.
Why is it that Americans always need foreigners to express "Love" and "appreciation" for America and American values or what ever. I have been in many discussions with persons of a different nationality then myself but never once did I hear any of them (Americans excluded) ask (or cry) if they were loved/appreciated as a people or system. Never did I do so in return. It is quite probable that more then a few people hate my guts. I NEVER asked why and I really do not loose any sleep over it. I never feel scorned for it or even resent it. Somebody has a different opinion then I have, and does so passionately; BIG DEAL ! In the sweeptakes of life we'll see soon enough was wrong or right. Besides I must rather have such a world then one were everybody agrees with everybody in a machine like fashion.
So what is up with that ?
Wouter
P.S. Did you even hear me ask what you Americans like about the Netherlands ? Do you love us (Hate us) and why ?
.
Solution :
Have them develop themselfs into properous nations. Did the trick for us and the Catholic chruch was every bit as influencial as the Imans are right now.
Mind you Iraq had one of the lowest birth rates in the middle east. Another proof that we went after the wrong target.
Wouter
This probably all began with Khruschev(?) pounding his shoes at the U.N. and screaming that he would bury us.
But, I'm drained, you win. Did you see my new post " A cat vs F-16"?
Me too, so lets get back to catamaran topics. I'm composing the post right now.
Wouter
Not so fast you two! There will be no hijacking of this thread! Wouter, here are some things I LOVE about the Netherlands:
1. No Fat Chicks!
2. Lots of Bicycles!
3. Lots of Heineken!
4. Texel!
5. Lots of windmills!
6. Nice guys like Wouter who will take you to their Cat club, show you boats and buy you Heineken, on draft, at the club!
Things I don't like about the Netherlands: The summer is too short and not nearly warm enough. If it weren't for that, I'd move there. I spent my first 30 yrs. freezing my butt off in the North East of the US, dreaming of summer, which up there is only June, July and August. So now I'm in Florida and on those few days it doesn't get to at least 80 (27C), I think I need to move further south! I hate wearing long pants and a jacket, and sailing in a Dry Suit? Please, let's not even talk about that!!
Could we please get back to talking Politics?? 
Do you know that place in London, Speaker's Corner? It would be nice if we had a place like that!
Wouer,
How tall are you?
Ask Mary to designate an officially sanctioned "speakers Corner". I'm beginning to feel like the guy who won't shut off his cell phone in the theater!
I think height is relevant.
Dare I ask why! 
Timbo, the I20 pictures were taken on the Sea of Galilee, about an hour inland from our club at Sdot Yam, on the Med coast. I’ve attached a picture from last Saturday of our N6.0 off the 2000 year old Roman city and port of Caesarea, less than a mile North of us.
But back to politics…
Rolf, It never ceases to amaze me how, with hundreds of millions of Muslims surrounding us, many of whom are quite radical and would love to have all Israelis take a very long swim, we still come out the oppressors. Maybe that’s the same press busy blaming America for attacking “innocent” countries instead of urging European leaders to find creative but effective ways to protect our way of life from a rapidly growing threat.
Because I do agree with Wouter in theory:
I just think their leaders may need some “convincing” before they relinquish unlimited power to a thriving, secular, democratic lifestyle, and happily join the West.
And speaking of Hammas, their leader Haled Mash’al was warmly received in Teheran today. Wonder what that does to my optimistic scenario from yesterday?
All of the forum members who were very active (and nasty) at selling Bush policies these last years are suddenly absent.
Is it because they feel like us that the [censored] is going to hit the fan shortly?
Nope. It's because it gets tiring hearing the same crap from the Kool-aid drinking crowd. Bush lied about wmd, oil conspiracy, Iraq is only about oil......blah, blah,blah.
(Dammit, they've drawn me into this mud..... )
Greg
Capitalism versus Socialism: I don't think you can get away from a basic truth that the more you want someone or something (government, for instance) to do for you, the more freedom of independent action you will give up. Any good society will take care of its vulnerable citizens; even barbaric societies did this to differing extents. But the more these support programs proliferate, the more people will be happy to depend on them; not everyone is motivated by the work ethic. Way back, Benjamin Franklin said that we should help the poor, but not make them so comfortable that they want to stay in that condition (I'm paraphrasing). The beauty of Capitalism is that it appeals to human being's self interest, which is more reliably stronger than human being's altruistic instincts. Since Capitalism is basically amoral, it must be coupled with a strong rule of law to reign in excesses. In support of the above very brief theme, I offer some general statistics. US economic growth rate is consistently higher than Europe's. US unemployment rate is way below Europe's (Europe varies from 6 to 9% while the US is under 5%). Opinion poles show Europeans much less optimistic about their future than US citizens. This attitude may be why Europe's birth rate (among ethnic Europeans) is not sustaining itself. The gowing social support payments necessary from years of social welfare and the aging baby boom generation is creating an impending economic crisis more dangerous than our "boomer" social security crisis.
If government gets out of people's way (except for enforcing proper rules of fair play, so to speak), one sees the inventiveness of people unleashed. Ireland's economic boom over the last 20 years serves as a good example. In the US, I am constantly amazed at seeing how people will find the smallest need and find a way to make a living filling that. The inventiveness of these entrepeneurs never ceases to amaze me. Now, before I get slammed with examples of how this idea is perverted or corrupted in the US, I didn't claim it was perfectly functioning here, just better than in many other places in the world. We have many distortions of the free market here and some lead to real economic problems. In general, though, barriers to entrepeneurism are much lower in the US than in Europe and that's a good thing.
Regarding oil: The Alberta (Canada) oil sands contain more oil reserves than currently exist in Saudi Arabia. At $2.50 a gallon, it is now becoming economically viable to extract and market. We have in the US vast deposits of shale oil under ground. It can't be accessed by open pit mining like the oil sands, but there is a commercial test operation (to test on a commercial scale) going on out west whereby steam is injected into these deposits and the oil is "cooked" out of the shale. When deleted, the deposit is back filled with water and the whole operation occurs underground. These deposits are vast, close to the level of Saudi Arabia. Last, but very much not least, we have, at current consumption rates, enough coal in the US to fuel our fleet of vehicles for 500 years. This is from methanol extracted from coal.
The US should mandate that the auto makers achieve flex fuel capability on their fleet within 2 to 3 years. It takes only a sensor to determine the composition of the fuel and adjust the mixture accordingly and a protected fuel system (methanol and ethanol are corrosive). This mandate should require flex capability for both methanol (from coal) and ethanol (from corn, etc) which is harder to accomplish, but well within current technology. By now everyone's seen the E85 ads, so the ethanol lobby is in full swing, but we need full flexibility.
The point of all this is to not have a world economic crisis regarding the oil economy while the world economy has transitions beyond its complete dependency on petroleum. We need 50 to 100 years for this process and its readily available. The other, maybe more important point, is that we need to stop funding the Islamic terrorists. Much of the money all countries send to the mid east is used to fund Islamic fundamentalism which is the source of inspiration for Islamic terror activities. As a business man I marvel at cost of goods for a barrel of oil, $5; selling price fob mid east, $60; profit $55 or 1100%. This dependency also coops the western world from properly reacting to terror activities or terror supporting states.
To summarize (and therefore, oversimplify), we should support the vulnerable; create a minimum safety net for the poor, but not one that makes them too comfortable; drive the poor back into productivity, get government out of people's lives as much as possible; enforce fair laws; unleash the inventiveness of humans in the economic sphere; develop alternative fuels quickly, especially the technologies with good return-on-investment capabilities; send less money to the mid east and keep it in our own countries; and sail more rather than burn fossel fuels.
Davidn
H20 781
If Winter's here, can Spring be far behind?
David,
You are my new hero. WORD.
Greg