Poll - Will Cash Prizes Hurt or Help Sailing?

I am really frustrated. Rick put up the poll and immediately voted that he thinks cash prizes are good. I was going to vote that I think they are bad. But since we are at the same IP address, it won't take my vote. So I just want it on the record here that we have a split vote in this household.

Mary, I can vote twice if you want me to in the "No" catagory.

Okay, Maugan, you can do a proxy vote for me. Thanks.

i think it is good for the sport. Dangle the carrot.

Hi Rick -Mary and all

Was surprised today to see the amount ,-Mike had mentioned the prize aspect .

We --many partisipants have sailed the race numerous times ,for the love -enjoyment of the sport .
I have mixed thoughts on it ,-

Many areas have prize money in sailing now and in the past -Austrailia -France etc,,-nothing new .
There were the Prosail events and also the Ultimate Yacht Race events in 88 with modest prize money .
It did not change things much .

The larger amounts will require a sponsor for many teams ,-and with that demands ,-good and bad.
I,d like to see the prize money spread out a bit more over 20 -or 30 teams ,-
Several teams are very happy and thinking --heck with the 401k --here is the retirement fund ,-
Thinking if Brian and Jamie had this in place the last two previous races they would be going for the over one million or 1.2 mil.mark this one ,--whew !!!
We will see numerous teams get much more serious about training -practise and obtaining sports marketing firms and sponsors , basically taking a similar professional approach as in so many other sports .We will see many more teams from competitive classes from overseas as well .

It will add tremendous interest to the race and the sport .
Carl

Does it make a difference to anyone whether the carrot is being dangled by some big sponsor of the overall race or whether the carrots are all being put into a pot by the individual teams?

Rick, Carl, et al...

This is going to take a much higher level of organization for the race than currently exists. It will no longer be the "experience" and the "challenge" that drives the participants. That much prize money will require truly professional judges, very formal protest hearings, random boat inspections throughout the event, and possibly on the water judges. It cannot be Mike's rules anymore...no more "Jensen beach" rule changes at the last minute to keep the race going with everybody...

What about doping controls??? Mike has always used the Tour de France as a model...in a race where we experience the fatigue, sleep deprivation, and minor injuries that can hamper performance...will the dollars at stake drive participants towards chemical enhancement to keep their edge and stamina??? It costs about $200 last I checked to do an Olympic level drug screen, maybe more now. I know from my participation in Football and also in Track Cycling that many of my friends took performance enhancing drugs to reach goals even at risk to their health...and there was not $1,000,000 cash on the line.

Well I better stop typing and start training for 2004... I'll start the bidding for Jaime Livingston's services at $25,000.

FYI...I'm doing the Tybee 500 this year as I'm not interested in racing an 18 foot boat in those conditions at my size...it will be interesting to see what the boat selected for 2004 will be. I thought the F18HT had a two or theee year deal...is that not the case now...or was that never the case? I'm not an HT basher at all...I hope everyone makes it safe and sound this year, but with this much at stake in 2004... what about having Performance build a special boat that has the best of the 6.0 and I-20 in one package. I heard rumors of Performance tendering such an offer for a special Worrell 20 in years past.

Carl...are you going to do the Tybee 500 or the Worrell this year?

Jim Stone
Entegra racing
"Soul Surfer"

Making events prizes is the most retarded thing the catsailing world could do right now. Right now, I have the benefit of being able to pay my way into sailing with some of the best catsailors in the world if I so choose. If they go towards a cash system, certain races and regattas will leave the novices behind to race in the regattas that the big boys don't want to bother with anymore because theres no payout.

Same thing happened in paintball. The prize system led to a very well supported sponsored elite that had a stranglehold on the talent in the sport for YEARS until the rest of the community could pay their way to the top. It left the good teams playing against the good teams, and left the unexperienced playing by themselves. If you wanted to play with the big boys, you had to fork over several thousand dollars in entry fees and stupid insurance BS... basically the aristocracy of the sport tried to keep it elite.

I don't mind racing against some of the best the sport has to offer, but hell if I'm going to fork over the entry fee that it costs to merely compete over and over again just to have my butt handed to me on the end of a spin pole.

I would hate to see that happen to catsailing.

I was blown away when I heard the news. I think it's just great.

Maybe this will be the thing that finally gets the Worrel (and beachcat sailing in general) the attention it deserves as an "extreme" sport. The Worrel should have the same type major coverage that the Iron Man gets in Hawaii, maybe this will catch the attention of the TV networks.

I'd love to see full blown coverage of the event with onboard cameras like a major sports network could do if they wanted.

OMG.

Its like some recurring nightmare, happening over and over and over again.

I've seen what the lure of TV does to a fledgling sport. Its not pretty. All of a sudden, the race is on to become billy-badass so they can get on camera the most. The people with the most money to spend get the most cheesetime.

I don`t believe it would hurt the event - it may just move the goalposts a bit further away from the "average" sailor with an average budget. It won`t deter the big boys, but will rather attract even more of them to the event - good for the event, not good if you intended doing it one day & belong to the "average" group. In an e-mail reply Mike Worrell stated that the event was no longer for the average cat sailor to aspire to, but rather more geared up toward semi-pro or pro sailors, as he put it "the worlds best". The event has become the "Volvo Ocean Race" of cat sailing, already out of reach of most of us.
All it really means is that this is the last time we may see the following headline (taken from catsailor.com web-site
"Brian Lambert, skipper of Team Alexanders and repeat winner of the Worrell 1000, is going to be presented with the All Sports Association Inc's., Amateur Award, that recognizes an outstanding Florida Amateur Athlete. The award will be presented in Ft Walton Beach at the fairgrounds with around 1000 people expected to attend, including crew Jamie Livingston, Beetle Bailey and Richard Senn, team managers. This will be the third time this award has been presented to a Worrell 1000 winner -- Carlton Tucker in 1982, and Randy Smyth in 2000."
An Amateur sports award will not be presented to anyone who sails professionally, I believe $400 000 is enough to convince the judges of such an award that this is no longer an amateur event - if indeed it still is, as I would like to believe, although it has already transcended the spirt of an amateur event by way of it`s exclusivity.
I don`t see any of this as bad - Formula 1 or Indycar racing is no longer ana amateur sport, although it once may have been, and it`s popularity among spectators is huge. Hopefully the Worrell can do the same thing for cat-sailing - create public awareness & enthusiasm among non-sailors who then migrate to the sport. The rest is up to sailing clubs, to harness & grow that enthusiasm in order to grow the sport.
In a perfect world, maybe.

Steve

I understand the poll question to be more general -- about how cash prizes would affect sailboat racing in events at all levels. It is not necessarily about the Worrell 1000, although the announcement about the cash purse for 2004 obviously precipitated the question and most of you may be voting in the poll based on only that one particular event.

Personally, I am more interested in the wider ramifications and the potential of a trickle-down effect to smaller events. I wonder if some people's opinions would be different if they were thinking in terms of the Delray Drag or the New England 100 or the Key Largo Steeplechase or the Round the Island, Tybee 500, The Great Texas, etc.

Hi Jim

Dave and Bill W -are with us again in the Worrell this year as 3rd and gr crew plus others . Have an interesting team this year again .

Made an early commitment to race the W-1000 again --
7th -whew

The Tybee Race looks fantastic and talked to Chuck at length ,-It will be a great race , The 120 mile first and last legs will seperate the teams in a hurry ,-especially if the first day has high winds on the nose ,--ouch ,--achy tired, and sore for the rest of a grueling week .

We have a similar 200 miler being planned in Michigan now ,-
info out soon , hope you.ll make it up for it ,-starts Mon morning right after the CF 4 regatta --[100-boats there expected ] -the 200 mile race ,---then followed by the Red Fox Regatta -distance race ,---Combining 3 events in a row --buoys racing for 3 days at the C F 4 ,--THEN THE 200 MILE race up the Lk MI coastline along Sleeping bear dunes national shoreline ,-
then the Red Fox with 14 classes of sailing craft in attendance ,--racing Sat and Sun ,--
there is a layday Fri ,
Should be a spectacular 10 days of racing for any fortunate to have the week before Layborday off to race .
Can't think of better practise in Aug .-for many teams thinking of the Worrell or Tybee races in 04 -

{no prize money ,---yet }

The N E 100 has had prize money in past years ,-
But I don't think we will see a proliferation of big money events or distance races . It is great to see the new distance race in Texas ,-and another major one in MI happening this year .
Positive signs .

Carl

First of all as far as getting multi-hull racing more clout, yes big time sponsors and money will do that. Is that good or bad??? Depends on who you are.

If you are a club racer / rec. that doesn't wander your of your region much... it is good. More people get interested in what you do. Your activity is on TV. More people get involved.

If you are an intermediate racer that does the bigger class events and some distance racing, this is prob. a very bad sign. You are good enough to compete, but the big money will escape you and you will be forced out unless you can get a sponsor and get some luck.

If you are a high level racer, then this is great news. Your sponsorship dollars will go up. Your pay will increase. You could become a household name. Larry Ellison might want to crew for you.

The big thing... is Worrell ready for this? Drug testing will become a big deal. I think the rules of the race will have to change. Manufacturers will get involved and one standard boat will not be tolerated anymore.

Either way... it isn't good for me. What happened to the Hobie Way of Life?

I think it's alive and well, and living in hundreds of local fleets and clubs, and in the hearts of thousands of individual beachcat sailors who aren't affiliated with any group. Today the "Hobie way of life" may or may not include any actual Hobies, but the life is the same.

My viewpoint of all this is mainly that most anything that raises awareness of our sport will help recruit new participants. I'm looking forward to the day when ESPN's SportsCenter routinely includes a sailing wrap-up. I get tired of trying to explain what a catamaran is, when talking about my weekend plans.

Damon,

You and everyother non-mainstream sports participant wants their sport's coverage on ESPN.

Absolutely! I'd like to see it in my local newspaper also.

We always get excellent coverage in our local newspapers here in the Keys, even though this is a wasteland as far as small-boat sailing. For every event that we host, Rick sends advance stories and photos to all the local and area papers. And immediately after the event he sends a regatta followup story and photos. If regatta organizers would do this in their home towns and in the towns of the regatta venues, it would do wonders to raise awareness about sailing in general and catamarans in particular.

However, raising awareness and interest and educating the public and even giving cash prizes for events still does not solve the basic problem: How to make sailboat racing an interesting spectator sport. Personally, I would rather watch motocross any day.

"Damon,

You and everyother non-mainstream sports participant wants their sport's coverage on ESPN"

Ever see some of the "non-mainstream" activities that get airplay? Once I saw a sheep-herding contest..you know the kind where the trainer has to command the doggie(s) by whistle to gather the sheep and then corral them.
Anyhoo..I could not help but wonder how this could get airplay but catsailing could not.
Then again, now-a-days, if you include an animal in whatever you are doing it is a crowd pleaser. Maybe we should start including our pets in racing. We'll have the TV stations flocking to regattas to see life-jacket sporting dogs barking commands on the water.

All joking aside, I think money is bad for the sport, though I don't believe we will ever see cash prizes be the norm in your run of the mill event.

HERE HERE! I agree 100%. Media, local or national, is what will take this sport (back) to the next level.

I don't think that money offered in regattas is going to make things worse immediately. The only events that are going to have any substantial purse are events like the Worrell - and I think it's going to do wonders for our sport. If cash prizes were to be introduced into our local level racing, my immediate concern is that the current level of 'good sportsmanship' could take a turn for the worse...which would eventually turn away a lot of sailors. However, I think that it would be a very, very, long time before that became the norm.

There is one event in Myrtle Beach that offers money for the top three positions for us 'normal' sailors (in the neighborhood of $400 for first and so on). There was no apparent difference in the attitude on the water then - I think we could survive it. If we ever did get there, it would be important to not forget the beginners when awards are handed out.

yes offer prizes; it's basic human nature
people will do more -be more active- if they receive a prize or something to show to other people and brag about. even a $5 plaque with a $25 entry fee is something to brag about

The Worrell 1000 is a unique event and prize money is acceptable at that level.
For other events where us ordinary sailors participate, I think that sponsor's money should go into extra and better prizes, more publicity etc.

IMHO, anything that makes it cost more $$ to go sailing/racing is a bad thing.

The prize money will either come from higher entry fees (more money) or from commercial sponsorship, which will be HUGE money and will make everyone just that much crazier about their gear which will drive up the cost of said gear which will sooner or later prohibit people from participating at all.

And if you think it will only make it more expensive to RACE, then you're nuts. You think Maufacturer X is only going to jack up the prices of his "racing" hardware when this craze takes hold, and leave the rest of his prices alone????

I have looked at this thread a couple of days and have hesitated on my response. I'm not a racer but, I did the ground logistics for Michael's race for 2 years. Will the large cash prize eliminate some of the more casual and underfunded campaigns (I mean that with the utmost respect, any person with the guts and grit to start this race much less finish it, I have nothing but admiration and respect for). Yes.

Will the cash prize bring more attention to the race? Yes. The cash prize has been Micheal's dream for a long time and it is Michael's race, any who doubts that refer to rule #4(Worrell 1000 rule book).

The one thing I love about Micheal is his pure devotion to this race. Of the other sail races that I have been around, I have not seen the devotion from the racers or orginizers that I have seen at the Worrell. If there is a race event that deserves a purse it is this one.

Will the prize end the cooperation between teams? This is a question all of the race officials and some team members talked about over the 2 years I was involved. Unfortuately, yes.

The overall question will the prize hurt or help sailing? My opinion is that if you want more people participating in your sport, bring more attention to it. I think the million dollar prize will do that. Cat sailing has had a lot of competition over the past 20 years with surfing, pwc, windsurfing, etc. I think the prize will bring more deserved attention to the sport and help the sport grow.

Just my thoughts,

carlyle

Let's try it this way. I am posting right after what I have read,again you disagree with making cat sailing for money. Is that any money? Some money? Alot of money?Or absolutely positvely no monetary gain at all. Should we get Catsailor magazine for free? Should Rick teach seminars at cost.And I'll take the rest of those training videos for free please!I am only challenging what you said in the post about racing for money. Why is it that when somone does not agree with a statement from you they must reiterate on every detail until its finally understood.

Okay, Bob, I have figured it out now: Your post about my needing medication and something about roads and brakes should have been in this thread so people, including me, would know what you were talking about. (Note: Bob's post above is in response to the fact that in the "Mary medication" post I had asked him what he was talking about. See that thread in order to understand his post above.)

Apparently, because I said I was voting in the poll that cash prizes are bad, you thought I had an opinion on the subject. That is not the case. I had to vote "bad" only because the question is so general and open-ended, and I thought it was better to err on the side of maintaining the status quo until more information is available about the pros and cons. When you open a can of money, there might be worms in there, too. I think that is why so few people have voted in the poll. And that was the purpose of asking people to express their opinions in this thread.

There are so many questions and so many different potential situations.....
Is money okay in a few, specific, major events like the Worrell 1000? Or should all regattas be able to offer cash prizes?

Is there a difference in the palatability of having cash prizes when the money is being provided by a major sponsor, as opposed to the sailors themselves putting their own money into a pot to be divided up?

What about the "professionalism" issue? Should sailing be divided into two camps -- the professionals, with their own "tour" of regattas, and the amateurs with their tournaments and leagues? That is how it works in golf, tennis, bowling; but is that feasible for sailing? We don't have enough sailors to have such a division. And we can't get spectator money and television money to pay for the cash prizes. Sponsors are hard to find. So that leaves the main option being for the sailors themselves to provide the prize money.

Will sailors who go to a lot of regattas every season be willing to pay an additional $20 or whatever in their entry fee in order to have cash prizes? Or do they want to give up T-shirts, trophies and beer so that money can go toward cash prizes?

Or could we have one or more optional "professional" classes available to sailors at every regatta?

And how deep into the finish positions do you go with the cash?

And if the same people are winning all the money all the time, are they going to start feeling bad about it and stop racing because they don't want to keep taking their friends' money?

This is not a cut-and-dried, good-and-bad issue. There are just so many ramifications, some of which have been addressed already in this thread.

Racing for money can create a large problem in the U.S. In many states and the NCAA, it is against league rules to accept prize money. We have enough problems getting youth involved, but by introducing prize money that completely eliminates them from competition. I am a college athlete and bought a formula 18 and race almost every race in the season. If prize money were offered, I would have to quit because racing for prize money would null my amateur status and I could no longer compete at the college level. The same goes for any high school athlete. The minute they compete for prize money, they lose their amateur status.
Leah

If the prize comes from a bigger entry fee- No. Why make getting into racing more expensive?
If the prize comes from sponsors inside the sport - No. As pointed out earlier, they will get it back from inside the sport.
If the prize comes from external sponsors - probably not.
1) big-boat mono racing shows how aggro sailing can become when money is involved.
2) Sponsors demand publicity = demand exciting images. Great for sailing in a way, but what does it really do?
Here in Australia we've had live coverage of sailing (skiffs and Sydney-Hobart) for years. Neither class did well out of it. Both priced themselves out of the sport and the skiffs only recovered after TV went away. The Hobart gets lots of publicity but the fleet this year was the smallest for decades, becuase only the front of the fleet gets publicity and attention. The whole race becomes about them, the back of the fleet gives up and goes away.

Sure, the images look exciting. But will non-sailors see an F18HP and say "Gee, I'll do that". I've spent hours sitting beside the wavesailing and skiff vidoes at boatshows. Non-sailors look at it, go "wow", then "I'll never be able to do that" and go look at something theyt can do- run a powerboat. The sport should be publicising boats beginners can sail.

Sailing to the public in Sydney is very well known - but only for the Sydney to Hobart, skiffs, and America's Cup. It's got the image of a difficult, elitist sport. When it had a different image, it was growing. Not it's not.

We went through this in windsurfing. The sponsors came in, then demanded that it become more exciting to watch (among other factors, mainly marketing). The whole accent changed, from fun all-round sailing to reaching/waves in high wind. The sport is now a shadow of its former self.

Sorry to run off so long....

Great insight CJT!
You wrote:
"The whole race becomes about them, the back of the fleet gives up and goes away."

Sailing as a sport requires competition between sailors... If the competitive balance is skewed dramaticaly (by money or Olympic status) fewer and fewer sailors compete in the sport (or class). Fewer and fewer competitors results in a single class which skews the competive balance further and new racers have no yardstick with which to measure their progress.

As our racing season starts to emerge from the snow banks... we must keep in mind that our top sailors are addicted to racing and we can count on them to take care of their own needs....Meanwhile, our C fleet sailors are trying the sport on for size.... We must grow our base of sailors by providing a friendly competitive envirorment that matches their goals in the sport that we are running.

You wrote:
Non-sailors look at it, go "wow", then "I'll never be able to do that" and go look at something theyt can do- run a powerboat. The sport should be publicising boats beginners can sail.

I agree that this is important. One problem that all but kills this kind of initiative is that the sailors who are running clubs and events are addicted to the sport and have moved up from the entry level boats and simply lost touch with the non sailor just getting going in this kind of sailing. Time is limited for everyone these days and I think its a lot to ask of these club members to take on this additional challenge. Dealers and factories have a direct stake in new sailors! We need their leadership and manpower to grow the sport by recruiting new sailors and then introducing them to the sport of cat racing.

Take Care
Mark