Portsmouth DP-N

Join and support us. Be counted as a cat sailor.

Have you tried the website? I just got to all of the info you seek without a password...

Mike

Try this link - http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/portsmouth-yardstick/current-tables/

I agree it was password protected earlier

In case Mikes link does not work PM me your email address and I'll send you the tables and modification factors.

Thanks for the site info! Another piece of great info to be found on Catamran Sailor.

I have had a hot link on this site www.catsailor.com for eons in the left index
Rick

I tried using it a couple days ago and while your link worked the site required a password (membership) to access the tables.

It didn't a week or so ago. Strange
Rick

It's neither your imagination nor a glitch. They have put password protection on this at times. While I agree that people should pay to join and support the effort, this is like anything else rules-related: once it's out there, anyone can reproduce and use it, and any attempt to lock it down can only backfire.

Mike

Why? It should be public informationa?

No clue, Rick. Just confirming for people here that they weren't imagining things when they were asked for passwords.

Mike

I get right to the tables here - no password. Are you looking for something different than the Portsmouth tables in on-screen presentation?
Portsmouth tables for multihulls

USSailing (the employees) are always looking to increase membership without increasing value or services. It's cheap and easy to lock down a useful part of the website in an effort to drive up membership.

The DPN system is public domain but I'm sure USSailing considers it intellectual property of USSailing therefore they can distribute it as they wish.

Looks like the link is now broken, <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" />

I have the tables in Excel format if anyone needs them....but I believe the last thing they need is to give anyone more incentive to use a different rating system. <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Seems the link to the tables works sporadically... I was able to get in there and get hem onto an excel sheet...

But I agree.... why make it hard when there are alternatives out there...

Anyone know where I can find the Portsmouth rating for the Nacra F20 Carbon? It's not listed in the petroglyphs (Portsmouth tables).

Is this a trick question? It received a provisional rating at one time that I remember did not draw a lot of confidence in the Portsmouth system - or am I thinking about the foiling 20?

Both!

I knew the number since it's the same as the CFR (WTH), but wanted to verify first. Luckily I just happen to have a copy of the tables from the middle of last year (6/10/2014)....

D-PN = 57.9, they didn't have wind range factors as of that time.

Thanks. I was meaning the curved board 20.

Um.... do you really believe that number?
Is that number fair to the fleet?

You would be better off taking the SCHRS tables and the Texel Tables and deciding what you want to set the DPN to...relative to your fleet.

This way... the fleet and the nacra owner can hunt you down and bitch... They will buy you many many more beers this way...
If all you can tell them is ... well.... I looked it up on US Sailing.... No beer for you.

It still only has a provisional rating which is 57.9. It only comes with curved boards. I have tried to get them to post it for a year and a half now and gave up dealing with them. I am thinking about switiching to SCHRS. They have ratings for production foiling boats and will return emails.

I support switching to SCHRS for the FL300.

Thanks for the feedback.

I don't know anyone on the current PN committee however.... I can say they are following the letter of the rule in the system.

They are NOT going to be able to publish a PN number for a boat without a one design fleet actively racing in handicap buoys races. They need valid data and the reality is that the US does not generate it. It is a conservative position. Back in the day.... you would have had to prove that you at least 5 or 10 boats actively racing handicap and OD just to get a provisional rating published in the table. Two boats in the country are not a fleet....

There are very good reasons for this level of rigor.... It stops a rating that is essentially a personal handicap from substituting for the boat class.

Yes its a change from the Darline Hobock era and sailors have to take this into account when they adopt the system.

In portsmouth... it was an honor system that bound each owner to saying that their boat was a completely class legal XXX.

SCHRS and Texel can also operate on the honor system... AND it can also use individual rating certificates for Stock OD, One offs or highly modified OD boats. It's up the OA to spell it out in the NOR what standard is in play.

Otherwise known as malicious compliance. It is the responsibility of the committee to recognize the issues with the system and develop an action plan to address those issues. Maybe the committee is concerned USSailing will invite them to leave if they color outside the lines. No that can't be it that would be crazy talk.

sssssh.... a us sailing conspiracy? really?

People Volunteer to do the job....(it is thankless) When you look at US situation with respect to new cat designs... plus all of the modifications to one design boats and the very very small number of qualified buoy races that give you data... You have to make a decision. Does it work? Is it transparent? is it fair?

How far can you stretch the rules of the PN system?...

We have been making **** up for years AND... no one design fleet wants to take on getting data on their class relative to the yardstick boats. So.. Do you continue just making up new ratings.... AND wind adjustments.... just because you take a SCHRS rating and now GUESS what the US dpn rating should be is not a solution to the problem.

If the OA wants to do that... nothing will stop them.... just don't ask the US PN committee to participate in the flim flam to cover your butt.. You don't get the seal of approval when you want to race your N17 against an F18 fleet.

So... It is quite responsible to say.. .. ... Nah... it is better to preserved the rating tables for the boats (dinghies and cats) that data exist for. Clubs can use the data and pn system as designed... or they can change and make up their own table or pick a different system.

I have been telling you that the system for cats was BROKEN... not repairable and cat fleets should move on for over 5 years.

ITS TIME TO MOVE ON!

The PN committee is just preserving the integrity of the tables as designed.

USSailing seal approval, ask the DPN commmitee to participate in the flim flam to cover our butt. What are you talking about!? Nobody cares about the USSailing seal of approval! Just because it's on the USSailing site doesn't give it any more cred than another handicap system. I kinda doubt anyone (except me, I'm a bit slow) is asking the DPN committee to do anything because we learned years ago the answer is always no and there will be no action taken.

And the whopper of them all...

The PN committee is just preserving the integrity of the tables as designed.

did you really type that with a straight face Mark? Come on, you can tell me we are buddies.

Dave....are you the reactionary to anything US Sailing or just the conventional one design nazi and opposed to all handicap racing in general.. I get the frustration with unrelated past US Sailing issues... but .... its time to let it go. I have punted on getting you to see the value of handicap racing in a dying sport.

um to the point... ... Of course you care about the Sanction of US Sailing.. If you go to Steeplechase with your ragged out N17 half baked foiler... You have no rating. So... you now get to race under the Rick White Steeplechase modified PN system. He does his best to make up a rating... BUT the fact that your N17 regatta budget includes buying drinks for Rick White to discuss your rating does raise some questions in the minds of others..

US Sailing is not going to sanction the N17 rating. EVEN IF they have a perfect crystal ball and can guess the exact fair rating for the half baked POS N17.

So...Do you care about the Rick White handicap system? probably not.... do the competitors in the Steeplechase care?... perhaps. Why race if you don't have 100% buy in to the rules?

The fact that they could see you at the bar buying drinks for the handicaper is not what transparency means.

The whole point of a national rating system is that for good or bad... It is sanctioned and transparent in following the design rules of the rating system..

Perhaps I should remind you of when we had alter cup qualifiers...eg somebody cared about the final results... and the rating based on bad data gave you a really high F16 rating relative to the fleet. Suddenly Bob Curry and others demanded a modification. And so it was done ...
Bottom line... this was not portsmouth.... we PHRFd the rating to make it fair for the fleet.

The integrity of the tables... YUP... I did write that with a straight face... I participated in guestimatting ratings for things like the F16. We did not follow the PN system....because we had no quality data... (and I doubt there is a uniformly good set of data to date). Did we know what we were doing... YUP!!! we punted on the transparency of the handicap system to meet the demand of a fair table for the upcoming Area D qualifier

The new foiling boats make this approach a bridge too far.

The choice is simple.... don't race the new boats under US sailing Portmsouth handicap. Make up a local rating....eg.. The Rick White Steeplechase Rating system...Transparency means that you sort it out at the bar with plenty of drinks at hand...and tell the competitors what the rating will be....
or change to a more robust handicap system.

So...I agree with the PN committee to tell you to buzz off unless you have race data of at least 25 buoy races from a fleet of at least 5 boats competing against a fleet of 5 yardstick boats. if you give them that data... they will give you a provisional rating... This is what I mean by preserving the integrity of the PN table.

otherwise... go make it up on your own a Steeplechase rating system and let the competitors know what the deal is before they sign up for the race. Stop supporting the whining about US sailing not doing what you want...

I think we're ignoring the possibility that nobody since Darlene has been able to run the math required to update the tables even if there was data to work with....hence the need for some of the guestimation.