Q: Which small cat?!?

You got that right !

I wouldn't want a nacra 5.8 for singlehanded sailing even if I was given one for free.

Wouter

Well Dennis, I remember your posts. Let the pro's get into this but it seems to me that your asking for lots of different things (if you find the boat thats fits all those parameters please let me know). Personally I would go with the Hobie 18, put a mast float on it for days your solo, use a pole system for righting. and put it on a trailer. and go sailing. bang for the buck that will be a good combo. A hobie 18 was my first boat and I wish I still had it. In my opinon

Not sure a pole would help you right it if you dont have enough weight (even Rick's picture shows 2 people on it...)

http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=146

I would think the righting bag would help more than a pole.

It holds

Theoretical maximum capacity of the 18

x 32

bag is 250 lbs.

I sail an old 5.2 and I love it. I sail it solo 90% of the time and it is great to sail that way.

When the wind really picks up I don't use the jib and still can solo easily.
Also I can right it solo at 6 foot tall and 180lbs. I don't think I would go much larger than the 5.2 for solo sailing.

Dennis, Depending on your finances and your weight, I would lean toward the following boats. Nacra 4.5, M4.3,Hobie 16,Dart,and if you can find one, a Sea Spray 15..at 180-200 lbs. full up 15' awl and 6.5' wide. the 20+' mast is very lite (10-14 lbs.) depending on it being a sock or a halyard rig. best of all, these boats can be had for $200 to $500 USD ! wish you were in the states.(I have six).I know many were sold in Holland etc.

I agree. I made myself a pole and it didn't work. Without someone else to help, it`s hard to keep it perpendicular to the boat and hang on the tip of it. So I had to keep one feet on the hull or on the dolphin striker, not making a real difference with respec to using just a righting line. Then I ended up broking it, precisely because I was not hanging from the tip but somewehere near the middle ot it. Now I have a bag. Haven't tested it yet, but I guess it will work.
Personally I wouldn`t go less than 16 ft. I have a nacra 5.0 and have sailed it in quite strong winds with no problem. I weight 87 kg. I like not having to deal with daggerboards, but I would prefer having them if the boat would point significantly better (wich probably would happen). I can raise the mast solo, I use the mast support from the trailer to start raising the mast from an initial angle.

I made a righting pole for the Stingray 18ft with 32ft mast and it works fine for me to right it on my own but for fast pure and simple fun with a quick setup and easy to right I think an old

A class

would keep you busy enough.
regards

Same here. Really old 5.2. I've added a asymmetric spi and I sail solo most of the time. If it is really windy I leave the jib in the trailer box. I'm fine (at 100kgs) up to the 20 knots mark, and on survival mode from 25 and up.

Wouter,
thanks. Good to know it's not just me being a total wimp!

Avalondalyn,
what exactly did you like most and what do you miss most about your H-18? I know that it seems that

I want it all, and I want it now (Queen)

But what I'm basically trying to do is not compromise from the start but at the end, once I get the big picture. Now all I have is a lot of fragmented information and lots of missing pieces.
That said, I'm afraid the Hobie 18 will be out of my league for single handing. But please convince me otherwise if you feel I may be mistakenly writing this excellent boat off! The mast float is an excellent idea. I think I'll build one with an internal radar reflector when I get my boat.

Gree 2056 and pepin,
good to know you both still love your old Nacra 5.2s and can right them solo! Now that (Inter 17) spin sure sounds interesting... Is the 5.2 easy to move around solo on the beach and can you also step the mast by yourself? pepin, thanks for those windspeed indications. To me that indicates the boat is manageable under the conditions I would normally encounter.

1943,
Of the boats you recommend only the H16 (of course), the Dart (15 or 18?) and last but not least the Nacra 4.5 appear to be readily available on the second hand market in my area. Given the above; I don't like the aesthetics or the relative lack of buoyancy of the H16 (sorry), though I have sailed one (a rental) with no problems. The Dart has a strong class assn. around here, which is a definite plus. But It appears to have been geared more toward

easy to rig and sail

than toward the

exciting performer

end of the scale. I have not sailed one, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The Nacra 4.5 looks nice and must be really easy to handle solo, but it also seems to be geared toward ease of use mostly. I'd like to know how many people it could carry without tripping up all the time.

Andinista, AndrewScott and JeffS,
thanks for the warnings and the tip (A class). Personally I consider solo righting without extra complexity a minimum requirement. This means I will only buy a boat which I'm confident I can right without mechanical aids. If it turns out otherwise I'll then still have the pole as plan 'B'. If OTOH I were to buy a boat thinking it would be all right with a rigting bag or pole, and it turns out that I can't get it to work.... (I tend to sail in places and at times where no one else seems to go very often)

The way it looks now I'm most interested in the Nacra 4.5, 5.0 & 5.2. Performance wise any F-16 or a less extreme

A

class boat found to be affordable sounds like a nice option!
I think buying anything much over 16' (5m) will be biting off more than I can chew...

Thanks everyone,
Dennis

I sailed my h-18 mostly solo. it was was easy to right with a solo-right pole w/ the mast float. she was heavy, fun, basicly bullet proof. in my opion the TheMightyHobie18 can facilate a wide range in the learning curve. It was my first sail boat. the price's are right. you can get parts easy. its just a very versital boat. If you can

master

(i never did)the TheMightyHobie18 you then be ready for any high performance cat. good luck, getting out there on anything is much better internet sailing.

I also have an INter17 spin rigged up on my 5.2. It works very well.
The boat is plenty light enough to move around alone. I mean there are times I wish I had another person but 90% of the time I am fine, just getting up steep banks and such can be tough.

The 5.2 has a fairly modern hull shape and when sailed well can pace alot of the newer cats.

If you can find a Mystere 4.3 it is a job boat to get you ready for the newer boats. I have one and I am 210 lbs. You get squaretop main, blade jib and a snuffer like the new boats. GREAT boat if you can find one.

Doug

Forget about the F16's, while they satisfy most of your requirements they can be had in NL for less then 10.000 Euro's and they are not leasure boats that like being run up the beach.

My advice, as last time, is the nacra 5.0 or 500, they come most close to what you are asking for and on the secondhand market you can get them for 1500-2000 euro's. They also take relatively well to a spi and sail quite well both when singlehanding and doublehanding.

Also the Nacra dealor still supports this boat type and actually is promoting the 500 alot. The Hobie 18 is a dead boat when NL is concerned, the nacra 4.5 never took off here and the mystere 4.5 never made it here. Nacra 5.2 is out of production for a long time and I'm not sure how many spare parts the Nacra dealor keeps for this type anymore.

Wouter

just to chime in on the nacra 5.2

1. they are cheap because they are old but their hull and dagger design still looks very modern, so they clean up well

2. with even a jib luff adjustment they can be tuned almost continually if you like sailing efficently

3. at 93kg you may be able to solo right it without assistance. at 75kg i've been unable to right mine the twice it's been over

4. if you get a trailer and the captive mast base, stepping the mast is apparently possible solo. with the old base and no trailer i've been able to step and remove my mast by using a couple of scaffolding supports and tipping the boat over, pic attached

5. 2 adults is what they were made for so no problems there, racing with 3 would be a bit slow but cruising no problem

6. they have big efficient daggers but also a boom. kind of hard to want a fully tunable rig but then no boom...

but i guess you'll be limited by what becomes available in your area. if you buy a cheap but sound boat you should have no problems selling it on if you decide you want something else later
plently of hull volume

Performance carries all the needed parts for the 5.2 and supposeable they still have the molds and if you had enough money I bet you could get a new one.

Well i dont know anyone who can right a Hobie 18 without crew or bag... they claim to be around 420 lbs, but i think its more like 450. I never was able to right it alone and i am 200 lbs.

Avalondarlyn,
I still think the TheMightyHobie18 is really too much for me at this time. Sounds like an exciting first cat though!

Gree2056,
that sounds good, add points to the N5.2...
If the parts are a problem I can always buy another 5.2, they are that cheap.

DougSnell,
I'll keep an eye out for one, though I don't recall seeing one. Of course, I wasn't really looking up to now.

Wouter,
Darn it man, why does there always have to be a

catch

! The F16 and A cats are probably not robust enough to take the neglect they will get from me. Good point. They are off my list. (You built yours yourself right? What's the outer skin on your cat? 400Gr /sqm s-glass? or even less?)

I re-read your previous in-depth advice... I'm just looking for more performance now than I was back then. My wife convinced me to get a cat primarily for myself and not bother accounting for her and the kids. That's why. I'd still like to take them out every now and again, but it shouldn't influence the final selection too much...

erice,
I know about the boom conundrum... I'm sort of split on the issue. I love the idea of doing easy gybes in heavy weather, but with proper technique a boom should not be too much of a liability I guess.

AndrewScott,
I have already ruled out the TheMightyHobie18. Would have been cool, but I think it is just too much for me to take on solo.

Thanks all,
Looks like it will most likely be a N 5, 5.0 or 5.2 then... Though there are still other boats that may be equally suited.

Regards,
Dennis

So I guess that's why I'm leaning towards the 5.2. A

To me the first decision is if you want racing or just recreational sailing. If you want a little bit of both, just make sure you are not leaving doors open

just in case

, it might lead you to a not so good decision.
If you want some racing, I don´t have an opinion (better listen to the experts). If you want recreational sailing, I would follow with:

- Define the size. 14, 16 and 18 feet boats are different animals. The size is not proportional to lenght (think what happens if you double the radius of a sphere). Try different boats and see the difference, the decision should be very straightforward, just compromising with the ease of rigging, righting and moving, but these things have been pretty much solved I think, you just need to figure out if the extra effort it´s worth for you or not.

- Go over the compromise of performance versus simplicity, it also defines the kind of boat you want. (decide if you want boards and boom).

- Then look at your budget and start over. A couple of iterations should be enough.

I´m sure I'm forgetting something, but just don´t overanalize things.

And make sure that your boat has room for your wife and children,

just in case

..... I frequently sail with my wife and two daughters, all on board. And they are not too crazy about sailing, but like to get a ride from time to time. Even my mother join us sometimes, like in this picture. (yes, the one on the trapeze..)

No glass on the outside. It is just 4 mm and 3 mm marine grade ply (multiplex). Only the decks between the beams has a single layer of glass on top of it to make it more robust under trapeze hooks and other sharp objects hitting it. And they HAVE ! The 4 mm ply with a single layer of glass is very damage resistant, more so then any modern foam cored glass hull.

Actually, my ply F16 is pretty tough and you handle it just as carefully as say an F18; but in my experience leasurely sailors often try to be as negligiant and obusive as possible, hence my advice.

Wouter

Dennis,

In your first post in this thread you seem to be describing a Dart boomless, daggerless, simple. I see a lot of people sailing their Dart 18 solo, perhaps someone can tell the weight/length required to right one solo. There are a lot of Dart 18 about in the Netherlands, you should be able to pick one up that fits your budget. Furthermore the Dart has an active class organisation over here so you won't be alone. Keep in mind that spending a bit more when you purchase the boat might save you more than that cost to replace worn parts soon after buying. After you factor in costs for gear, a place on the beach during the season and storage during the winter, it might be wise to buy a boat that you really like to justify those costs. But if yiu want to go catsailing you'll find a way to make it work. Hope to see you on the water soon, Succes man!!

The Dart 16 is great fun singlehanded. Plastic hulls can be treated roughly. Reefable main and furling jib, means you can handle almost any conditions.

Thanks Andinista,
I think you are on to me... The problem seems to be that I want to do both. The truth is that, even though I hate to admit it to myself: I won't be racing anything anytime soon due to other priorities. Maybe I am trying to leave

doors open just in case

as you put it... Leading to an unhealthy compromise. I'll bear that in mind...

My biggest fear is that I will get bored and frustrated quickly if a boat does not offer all the modern bells and whistles. I guess this is my monohull trauma (aka complete and utter boredom) playing up! OTOH, too big a boat and it all starts to become intimidating. I need to be in command at all times, I consider that a matter of safety.

A real world example is the rental Topcat K1 that I sailed with my brother. There was no mast rotation limiter or another control I could find to do the job. Under te circumstances we encountered there was almost always WAY too much rotation (like hard-over 100%..). Things like this really P1$$ me off bigtime! I'm getting mad now just thinking back...Of course, it could well have been due to my own ignorance, which is at least relatively cheap to remedy!

Put another way: I want to be the limiting factor on any boat I sail. Not the other way around.

A 16' (5m) boat sounds best, given that I do want to take others out every now and then. I have sailed a Hobie 16, with my brother in law, and the boat felt

about right

for one or two people. The 18' Topcat was too much, I would not even consider taking that boat out solo.

performance versus simplicity

that is indeed the basic question and it is still bugging me beyond belief!

Wouter,
hardy any outside glass, that amazes me! No wonder that boat is so light. Though I used to own a monohull with almost no outer skin I hardly ever sailed (moored!) her solo. A designer once told me it was hard to beat marine ply for strength to weight ratio in small boats, but this is taking it to extremes!

Genealex,
You are absolutely right! Dart 18 and the strong class org. make te boat very interesting. OTOH, Does one invalidate one's measurement certificate by adding a couple of blocks for a spin halyard? I really NEED a spin or light winds will really bore me to death.

Dermot,
thanks for the suggestion. I'm a little wary of roto-moulded boats because I don't know how to repair them myself or if this is even possible! I know and trust epoxy, fibreglass and foam quite well. Lets say I'm biased against anything else (Ahum... except marine ply of course, Wouter).

Thanks again everyone helping me out with this infernal decision (maybe a good boat name in there...) Or should that be my infernal INdecision...

Dennis,

SCHRS has a rating for a Dart 18 fitted out with a spinnaker check it out on www.schrs.com, so you can race on handicap. On the other hand, to compete in class events you can't carry a spi. I don't know how much of your spi gear you have to remove to be class legal, i'd say check it out with the class org. I'd be inclined to take it all off when racing class events, if you can't use it, why lug the weight around?
I understand that it's daunting task to buy a cat on a limited budget, I've been there and still am running my trusty old P19 on a shoestring, but once you accept your limitations you'll start solving problems instead of looking for them.
I honestly think you're going to struggle to find a cat that meets all your requirements at the budget you stated, so stop worrying. Unless your name is Bundock, Ashby, Brouwer, van Heemskerk, Booth et al you are going to be the limiting factor on your boat. I'd say pick a boat that fits your circumstances most closely and start having fun while learning to sail the tits off it!

The Dart 18 class is NL is indeed a very attractive group. They are not too large but very active and good fun. None of them sail with a spi however and in the past we have had several reports that Dart 18 doesn't take well to the spi package at all. Apparently it is to slow in turning and to narrow up front to effectively ride the spinnaker well. I think the Nacra 5.0 or 500 holds up better on adding a spinnaker.

Personally I agree with everything else said by others.

Wouter

I put a spi set on my Dart 18. You don't necessarily need a crew to use it and I did singlehand quite often. Unfortunately, there are no photo's in the archives showing it flying. In the photo below the spi is safely in the bag, after 3 capsizes we thought it was the best place for it!!! However, it was windy that day. If you predominately sail in light to medium winds it is a good toy. Darts aren't exactly the most technical Cats to sail so having a spi was a lot more fun. Righting the Dart singlehanded was near impossible in very light winds and I had to use the tramp bag on a couple of occasions but I'm fairly light 158lbs.

I said it was windy, check out the rooster tail on the Dart behind

And with the bag it´s easy or still hard / near impossible?

If it was windy the bag wasn't required, medium winds rarely, light winds and drifters more often but not every time. The Dart was my first Cat so now with a little bit more knowledge i.e letting the downhaul off as well as letting the main and traveller out I would probably succeed in righting more often without the bag.

Given that Nacra 5.0 and 5.2 are on your list, it would be interesting to hear a comparison regarding their ability to point. Reading your comments, Dennis, I would say that you care more than I about performance and tuning. I like very much my 5.0 in all aspects (including how cheap it was), except for how it points, it makes me feel like underperforming sometimes. It might be me in part, I know it requires some skills (weight distribution for instance), but I've read that the 5.2 points better. I just don´t konw how significant is the difference.
And taking that subject to a more general perspective, maybe a cat with daggerboards is just more suited for those who care to control and fine tune as much as they can.

Another comment regarding racing: I used to race long ago, on Laser II. It was fun at first, but when I realised that my cheap boat was not really competitive, it started to suck.. the ones that I used to beat learned quickly how to tune their boats and left me out of the podium. Limited budget can be an issue for racing.

Regardiong mast rotator, there are for boomless boats. They extend towards the bow and have two lines, one to each side of the beam, to limit the mast rotation. I haven't felt the need to instal one (I'm too lazy maybe), but it seems that you would need to adjust more frecuently than in case of having a boom.

I used to say with the Dart 18:

If there was enough wind to cause a capsize - there was enough to help me get back up