Q: Which small cat?!?

Wouter,
you could be right about the Nacra 5.0 or 500. I'm inclined to favor the 5.2 though. Still I think I will have to just give the boats a test sail and see which one has the right

feel

to it. To me buying aboat is also about emotional response, and I may be looking for problems that are simply not there in real life.

MarkP,
thanks for posting the photos, very nice. Good to know a spinnaker can be added successfully.

Andinista,
You are right, I do care a lot about performance and tuning. To me it is hard to know whether an entry level cat will keep me busy for long enough to not get bored or frustrated as I did on most monohulls (the bigger, the worse). Cats are different beasts than monohulls, so maybe a Nacra 4.5 would be all I need for the next five or six years. But then again, maybe not. Adding a spinnaker to a smaller cat sounds like a recipe for excitement though.

Dermot,
Perhaps I lack your level of self confidence. I doubt the wind will ever capsize me on any halfway decent boat. My own bungling is another story though! So I may just buy a water bag and a righting pole after all...

All,
I think I need to go and actually try some boats before buying anything. I'll try the N5.2 first to see if that works for me, if that proves too daunting (or I can't find one that isn't bent, soft or full of holes) I'll try to find a decent albeit more expensive N4.5 - 5.0 or a cheap Dart 18 and give those a spin.
Of course, if any of the other, more hard to come by, suggested boats turn up around here I may give them a test sail too.
Next step to me is to get a cheap dry suit so I can actually go and try some of these cats before the season is over AGAIN...

Thank you everyone for your excellent advice and your personal opinions. I really appreciate the effort! If we ever meet IRL; I owe you all a beer!

Hey, don´t be so confident about not capsizing, pitchpoling happens really fast, if you are doing something else, like arranging a rope or watching the feminin crew of other boats, it will get you... And the more sophisticated the boat, the faster it happens. You don´t need pole and bag though, one of them should be enough. (But it seems like some feedback from other users of poles would be useful, as I said I didn't have a good experience).

Let us know how it goes. Good luck.

Andinista,
Hey: Gotcha. That's exactly what I call bungling... I just don't tend to blame the wind or any external factor. I truly believe the root cause of most problems I encounter is between my own ears. The advantage is that this allows me to fix things efficiently (once I find out). The disadvantage: it can get depressing from time to time...

One exception you mentioned though: Looking at girls 9esp. on other boats). A boat is like a wife... Look at another and she always takes revenge. When you are sailing

there can be only one

...
Naah, I'm just pulling your leg.

Actually I seldom, if ever capsized in the 10 years I raced the Dart 18. However, if the wind was force 5 or more, pitchpoling did happen - very fine bows. In these conditions, with the boat facing the wind, dropping the traveller and letting off the downhaul, the Dart 18 comes up very quickly.

Forget the friends - the Shadow is the cat for you <img src=

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a nice little ditty and easy to remember but probably pretty dangerous to boat and solo sailor

fact is a newbie sailing solo on most 16,17,18 foot cats is likely to tip the boat over in winds not strong enough to get the boat back up

then hopefully they'll get assistance
if not the boat could end up smashed against the shore if close in or sailor dying of hypothermia if far out

has happened before and will continue to happen

Well put..
Sure these boats can be found cheap but then again, what's your life worth? <img src=

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Not sure what the skill levels are.
Find a little more money and get an older Taipan 4.9 (mine was $1,500NZD and an artwork I had laying around) and don't worry about all of the Spinny kit of F16.
None of the other boats are remotely comparable. Faster, easier to right and tougher and hugely trim-able with one/two sail option and then strong gear ratios.
My Nacra 14sq has been a great ride and was only $2,500 NZD in excellent order.

I don't think there are any nacra 5.2 in NL that are younger then 15 years. Most are from the 80's even, about 20 years old. While I owned and sailed a 25 year old boat myself alot I feel that finding such old boats in relatively good condition is rare. Therefor I think finding yourself a decent 5.2 in NL is setting a high goal, just because you want to have daggerboards.

I haven't seen a nacra 5.2 in years.

Wouter

Well, if you would like to see a NACRA 5.2, there are 2 of them for sale on thebeachcats.com website. To far away I know, but you can still take a look. The one I looked at appears to be in pretty good shape. So they are still out there ...............

Tom

Tom,

... in NL ...

means IN THE NETHERLANDS !

There could be a million excellent Nacra 5.2 in the USA and not make any difference to the fact that they are rare and old in NL were Dennis is located !

Wouter

Yeah, but it's still fun to look. And if you look at that boat that is for sale in California you will understand what I mean. That boat is in unbelievably good shape!

Speaking of boats that are hard to find, I certainly wish I could find an older F17 / I17R for sale for around $5,000.00 to $7,000.00. About the only thing close is the F16, and there seems to be quite a few of those for sale. But the price is just too high.

Tom

Thomm,

We are not going to make this thread into a F16 vs F17 discussion. <img src=

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Wouter

If I wanted to argue about boats, I would just go on over to the F16 forum. Those fellows really like to defend their little boat whenever it is attacked. I was just hoping someone knew of an older F17 for sale is all.

Tom

If I can find a used F16 at a reasonable price (daunting task, the second hand market is fairly limited !) my 5.2 could be up for sale. Old but complete and working, was last summer club champion (Only other serious competitor was a dart 18 <img src=

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I need to upgrade to something I can use to compete against the F16s <img src=

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Heck, if anybody wants a ride on a 5.2, and you are around London, just drop me a PM.

There are a number of Nacra 5.5 cats for sale at very reasonable prices around here. Lots of them younger than the 5.2s I have come across. Do any of you have experience righting one solo? Is a big righting bag enough? Should I add a pole and mast float...
My gut tells me the boat would be a bit cumbersome on land, but it seems like a nice compromise between tunable and well-behaved.

Any thoughts?

Thomm225,
thanks for the tip. I like to compare boats found on the 'net so I can get at least some idea of what to expect for any given price.

Pepin,
do you feel up to a nice one way channel crossing 😉 Just over to Flushing. Only a couple of busy shipping lanes to cross...

Erice,
I intend to capsize intentionally a number of times under safe conditions to get the hang of it before going way out.
Were you saying that the Nacra 5.2 is really too dangerous for a sailor who is inexperienced with beach cats? Or did you mean the Shadow?

I am sure you can right just about every boat solo with a bag. A float on top will help avoid a turtle (mast sticking straight down)

>There are a number of Nacra 5.5 cats for sale at very reasonable prices around here. Lots of them younger than the 5.2s

i think the 5.5 replaced the 5.2 in the nacra lineup, that's why they are all younger. 2 versions, the 5.5 uni, a little longer in the hull but actually 10 lbs lighter and with less sail area and the 5.5sl with a jib. more sail area than the 5.2 but got heavier again too.

i sail solo on small lake and have capsized my 5.2 twice. once in medium winds when i was seeing how high i could fly a hull and once in light winds when i wasn't paying attention on a reach with the main cleated and got hit by a gust

at 6'2" and 75kg i had nowhere near enough weight to right the boat either time. probably dumb of me to flip the cat in winds too light to give much righting assistance but that's what newbies do. didn't matter it is a small lake and people were about to help me out. but you will be sailing solo in the north sea right?

at the moment i have it in the back garden with no tramp on and even without a sail with it tipped and my body weight fully leaned out inches above the turf i'm still well short of enough weight to get it back up. i'm working on a righting pole at the moment but i think it will have to be the walk out type to guarantee getting the boat back up. i can't see the hang off type working well without being too long

actually that was the wrong pic, this is the design i think will work better

erice,
why don't you draw that as a real scale model and be sure to include your center of gravity in both setups...
I have a hunch there will be too little difference (if any) to matter. The inclination of your body will be different but the crunch is: are you creating more torsion by moving your CG out further or are you just getting into a more comfortable position?

erice,
I definitely won't be going out far on my own until I get the experience I need! Don't want to drift into a shipping lane while trying to right an overturned cat which definitely won't show up on radar... Besides, I wouldn't want to put potential rescuers at risk by being a total moron.

Good pointers though: I'll go for a righting bag initially, just in case!

On the subject of righting poles, Why not simply mount it in a central position under the mast step and use some 4mm rope and pulleys to winch yourself out to the tip while hung by your trapeze hook?

for a righting pole i want to try and use what i have. and that is the bottom section of a broken windsurfer mast. too thick to comfortably hang from with cold hands but sturdy enough to walk along. making a kind of blade for the end that slots onto the main beam where it meets the hull looks easier than making a pivot to hold it to the beam up around the dolphin striker. also with the beam lower it will be easier to walk out along and the blade can act as a paddle for when the wind dies. as to drawing a scale model it is much easier for me to actually go out there and make a test pole with a bit of 2x4 than it is to draw something, and i'll KNOW if it works or not:o)

Hey Dennis,
It's about time to stop talking and start sailing.

Agreed Hullflyer1,
I really should shut up and go buy me a boat. Trust me, I'm on all the second hand lists, watching them like a hawk.
Wish me luck.

Last comment on this thread for me:
Even the simplest boat will have lots of adjustments to keep you busy, fiddle with and learn. If you get bored with adjusting main and jib sheets, rudder tow, mast rake, battens shape and tension, in/outhauls (barberhauler or spinnaker if you want to upgrade) you can sell your boat and upgrade in a season or 2 when you have more skills.

I have found most used beachcats retain their value season to season (as long as they dont explode).

I made one statement: I used to say with the Dart 18:

If there was enough wind to cause a capsize - there was enough to help me get back up

I sailed the Dart 18 for 10 years and I stand by my statement!
I never said anything about newbies or sailing far offshore.
Of course cat sailing can be dangerous - none of us should be out there at all <img src=

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It is very easy to attach the pole to the center of the beam with a tang hook (using ss rivets). Mine was very robust there.

And the stopper knots to add necessary inclination worked just fine, and proved to be very necessary. They are needed to compensate for rope elasticity and also to add some inclination to avoid touching the water too soon (in case of hanging off the pole). For the setup that you suggest, Erice, it seems like more inclination would be needed, because the pole is closer to the water, loosing some lever arm. Plus it seems easier to apply all your weight on the end of the pole by hanging than by walking on it. In the last case you would need a good support (ropes) on each side, which don´t seem to be easey to hide when not in use.
http://www.catsailor.com/pole-install.html

The nice thing of this setup (attached to the middle of the beam) is that it is ready to use in seconds. If you don´t have a mast float or sealed mast it might be significant.

The problems in my case were:

1. It didn´t want to remain fully extended, it would rotate when trying to hang or step on it. I figured out this could happen but thought it wouldn't bee too bad. But it was.

2. 85 kg in the middle of a 2m pole can be a lot. Mine didn´t resist.. If you plan to walk on the pole, it has to be a strong one.

One solution I thought for problem N°1 is to have a line attached to the tip of the pole, which I would pass through a carabiner attached to one of the bridles (hull end), and come back to the tip of the pole, to be tensioned manually, without attaching to anything, thus avoiding the pole to remain extended after the boat is righted. And to avoid forcing the dolphin striker, maybe another rope, attached to the middle of the rear beam to limit the stroke of the pole.

Tried my righting pole for the first time a couple days ago. This was basically an aluminum pole tied to the front beam at the dolphin striker through a hole in the tip of the aluminum (was going to figure out a better manner of attaching it if it worked) then had a line go from the corners of the front beam to another hole in the pole with knots tied on each side so the pole wouldn't slip down the line. This was pulled to the back and kept there by a bungee.
After I went over I pulled the pole out easily and hung from it a little but nothing too impressive happened. I really only need about 30-40 more pounds and I can get it back up. The second time I went out on it nothing happened again and when I was pulling myself back to the hull I bent the pole big time in the middle. I had been meaning to put some small lines to steady the center of the pole too! Oh well. I have another section of tube I can use to try again or I will just bend the other one back. The problem is that I am not sure it would work even if I did put the smaller stays on the pole... and, in the end, I am just adding more complexity and weight.
With only 40 or so added pounds to right the boat I think I will just try another variation on the righting bag. Problem is: where to store it, and it is awkward to use.

Talk to Tshan and Tback. They use the same system. It is flawless.

Same here... I have my bag already, I sewed it myself.
I keep it in a little bag, near the mast step, attached to something, it doesn´t bother. I have a line attached to the center of the beam (at the same tang hook that you see above..) witch then turns into a 4:1 system with the bag attached to the other end. I haven't used it yet, I tend to avoid it, I'm too lazy and usually has only enough time to sail. I guess I'm waiting till I need to use it. At least I could test my mast float:

So let us know how it goes in your case, I'll do the same.