As the largest and most profitable catamaran manufacturer in history, do you think Hobie USA needs to take a greater lead in catamaran Research and Development?
When you consider the percentage of new boat sales to racers, how do you view the Hobie USA focus on Roto molded boats?
I am open minded, lets hear some well thought out opinions on Hobie’s responsibility to the racers.
Largest, yes. Most profitable - probably not. Hobie Cat was bleeding money in the late 80's when they were owned by Coleman. It's only through prudent management in the past 10 years (and some very innovative products, like the Mirage Drive for the kayaks) that has kept them in business.
Racing catamaran sales are maybe 5% of the small beach cat market. To devote a disproportionate amount of R&D to that segment of the market is not good business sense.
They have no
responsibity
to develop new products for a very small market.
Hobie USA fulfils their responsibility to the racers by generously giving (with very few strings attached) the all-volunteer Hobie Class Association tens of thousands of dollars a year. That money is used for our area championship events, guest expert programs, youth grants and helps support the HOTLINE class magazine.
They are content to let Hobie Europe spend the money on racing R&D, which makes sense for Hobie Europe, since the racing market in Europe is significantly larger.
When you consider the percentage of new boat sales to racers, how do you view the Hobie USA focus on Roto molded boats?
I am open minded, lets hear some well thought out opinions on Hobie’s responsibility to the racers.
Their only responsibility is to their stock holders and customers.
My interest is in light weight, high performance cats. Those needs are well met by other manufacturers. Personally, I have no intention of moving away from VWM boats.
When you consider the percentage of new boat sales to racers, how do you view the Hobie USA focus on Roto molded boats?
I am open minded, lets hear some well thought out opinions on Hobie’s responsibility to the racers.
as much as I would love to bad mount hobie USA for almost solely making rental cats it does make business sense. I am very surprised at how many of those rotomolded getaways, etc they do sell to rental businesses. HOWEVER, it is nice that people can rent cats and maybe make them more interested in getting a cat (maybe hp) of their own BUT I would think that maybe as many people are turned off by the low performance as are wowed by them and buy their own.
As far as the argument goes for rotomolded rental boats being bad for the sport...no way. Sure they're a little underpowered and 'safe', but they do promise a safer and less dramatic rental experience for newbies.
Does it make you think racing carts suck after going to a 'fun park' and renting one of those slow governed go-carts? I suggest, rather, that it would be quite the contrary and would open a door to where you might appreciate the high end alcohol breathing monster. At the very least, it would make you recognize it's existence.
If someone that has never been on a cat before rents one, their experience is unique. Just the fact that they can make it move will excite them. If they can make it move quickly its great because that is what they know. They don't know if its high performance or not because they haven't been exposed. If they have sailed before they know what to expect before they step foot on the boat anyway to there is no expectation except
can I make this go fast!
. Either way it think its positive that non-sailors can experience the cats without being overwhelmed!
JMO,
Clayton
I don't know where the idea comes from that we are
almost solely making rental cats
, but I guess that is because Hobie owns the rental market in most parts of the world. Most of the cats you will see at resorts will be a Hobie product.
To be more specific as to sales percentage... about 10% of our sail boat sales go into the rental market.
Matt, What percentage of sales are fiberglass boats?
I know first hand the availability of roto-rental boats has sparked at least one persons' interest. A local couple contacted me about finding them a
Hobie
via that forum as result of renting a Wave on their honeymoon. I'm fixing up an '82 H16 that works for their budget.
Hummm. Percentage of Fiberglass to Rotomolded production? I don't really know sales numbers for Hobie Europe, but I suspect that for World wide production... Hobie is likely doing at least 50% rotomolded these days.
But we are talking about Hobie USA
I would say that the recreational sailor market makes up about 75% of my business and the rest are racers. For the majority of people that come into my shop the Getaway and the Wave are the perfect boat. They don't want to race; they want to go out with their family and have a fun time. They could care less about the hottest foil shape. Looking at the posters on this site, (I know a lot of you) I would say that the vast majority race or at least have some racing experience...quite the wrong place to advocate for plastic boats. But, out in the larger world, away from the racing circuit, the vast majority of sailors are recreational. They enjoy the ice chests in the hulls of the Getaway, and the boomless rig of the Wave. If I can even find a used Getaway, I can turn it in about 2 days no problem with a very high resale value.
I can't tell you how many boats I sell to people that,
...had such a good time at the resort in Mexico on one.
These boats should be embraced by all sailors. They are like gateway drugs for people to get into our sport. Give them a season or 2 on their boat, then snag them for crew, then I'll sell them a race boat of their own. <img src=
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Hey Matt - you think Dan would go for this tag line?
The Hobie Getaway - just like smoking dope, only legal!
<img src=
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A Coworker of mine saw my nacra 5.2 one day and started talking about how his fiance and him rented a bout just like it in the Florida Keys, he would not stop talking about that experience for days.
Turns out that it was a Hobie Wave that he had rented. The roto-mold boats are great for newbies and rentals. They provide a safe way to introduce new people to sailing.
He is actually looking to by a Hobie Wave now.
We bitched for years that there were no entry level boats anymore. We bitched that performance boats are to expensive. Hobie took the lead and developed the wave. We then bitched that it was just a toy and had no performance and was too small. Then they came out with the Getaway. So we bitched it was too heavy and slow.
In case you arn't keeping track the Wave's and Getaways are the catalyst for new folks to enter into cat sailing. If it wasn't for these all we would have is a bunch of run down 80's H16's hanging around with no appeal at all.
You just can't please some people.
And as a previous poster said Hobie's only commitment is to their owners/stockholders. Their only goal should be to maximize profit. They don't work as a service to us.
They've done a brillient job of creating new products and cheaper production methods to keep thier company above water. I wish them all the best in the future.
Does anybody remember the Hobie Trifoiler? There is something where they took a risk with a really high performance
boat
that didn't really work out. Still it was a real achievement to bring that to production.
Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com
Hi Jeremy
Sailboat racing is a social activity... It requires a certain level of organization and a shared interest in a some level of competiton. We call them fleets (clubs)
My question is... Do you think that the folks buying the Wave's and Getaways are at all interested in joining a fleet that races? How about a recreational fleet???
The vast majority of recreational sailors at my club have NO interest in participating with a group in a sailing activity... It's not about the racing... its just not much interest in partipating with a group with their boat.
They are just as you describe... interested in getting their family on the water and having fun...
In fact... they are like the majority of sailboat owners with their boat at the marina... They are not members of any club (social or racing) and they want to go sailing and relax with their family and friends. (It is very much like Skiing... most people do their own thing or assemble small groups of friends for the trip)
I am puzzled about where all of these waves and getaways go.
you wrote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are like gateway drugs for people to get into our sport. Give them a season or 2 on their boat, then snag them for crew, then I'll sell them a race boat of their own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the east coast... I can't remember a wave or getaway EVER showing up to a Hobie regatta. The wave and getaway owners don't seem to join any of the catamaran clubs that I know of. (Sandy Hook may be the exception).
So... the big question is... How are you going about this?
If you are
racing
... then its certain frustration to take a newbie to a regatta. Crew issues (eg experienced and competent crew) are always an issue with a high performance boat. (perhaps less so on a Hobie 16 where the skipper can muscle the boat around until the crew gets some experience (but then you have the weight limits to manage)
Is it just
take them out on your race boat for a high speed ride?
Seems to me what is needed is a
new racer day
where owners of Wave's and Getaways come to an event where the race boats (Hobie 16 to Nacra 20's) are giving these folks an opportunity to drive or crew! Anyone done such a thing?..
I know when we have done this... all of the newbies were complete novices... eg first catamaran ride.... So.. they are overwhelmed and don't get into the sport.
We don't have a list of Wave and Getaway owners to target with our particualr flavor of drug.
(ps... I like the pusher analogy...)
Hobie's (Hobie Cat Company) Responsibility
Interesting phraseology. The answer is not a simple one. I would have to say that first one must look at their primary motivation, and that is to generate a profit for its owners and investors. As a company they have to focus on making it worthwhile for the principals to continue operating the company. If focusing on R&D generates more profit then they should move in that direction. Companies in today's world tend to have a very short view.
Is THIS quarter going to be profitable
Stockholders tend to forget about profits generated last year, they want to know how much their investment appreciated TODAY. Kind of a
what have you done for me lately mentality.
HCC is a profit driven company just like any other. Rotomold products are where the money is. It is hard to fault the company for moving in that direction.
HCC's greatest success has become its greatest burden. Let me explain. In the late 70's and early 80's Hobie Cat sailing enjoyed
Fad Status.
Hobie's were everywhere you looked. They were in Movies, TV shows, and advertisements.
They were colorful and exciting, and thru sheer overexposure everyone saw them, many wanted them and bought them, only to find that it just wasn't their cup of tea.
As the fad passed, there was an overabundance of used inventory. Many of these boats were lightly used and could be bought at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Sales of new boats took a nosedive, hit the bottom of the bell curve, and remained there. If you ask me, it is amazing that the company survived at all. I suspect that only thru the dedicated efforts of a few passionate people did it survive at all.
All that having been said, as someone that has sailed a Hobie for almost 30 years, and as someone that has a great love for the fiberglass products, it is hard to see the path that HCC has taken over the past several years.
They have discontinued the 14, the 18, and now the 17.
The Hobie 20 is a USA only boat, and they have moved production of the Hobie 16 to Australia. How much longer will they continue to build the Hobie 20? and What will happen to the Hobie 16 if the monetary exchange rate between the USA and AUS goes the way of the exchange rate between USA and Europe? It seems to me that if they continue the way they are headed, in the future you will be able to sail any Hobie you want as long as it is a rotomold product.
There is an old saying that goes something like this,
Ya gotta dance with the girl that brung ya
I have heard that HCC has seen a bit of an upswing in the sales of H-16's over the past few years, and I rather suspect that if they were still building 14's they would be seeing a similar upswing in sales on that product also. We are seeing the same thing with the Hobie 18. GOOD Used boats are beginning to command quite a premium.
As that old used inventory has worked its way thru the system it is getting more and more difficult to find a good used boat. The cost of refurbishing some of the boats that ARE available is almost prohibitive, and when you are done, you still have a very old and usually heavy boat with a low resale value. It seems to me that HCC has a unique opportunity at this particular place in time to do limited runs of some of these older designs and make them available to interested buyers. There are still strong 14, 17, and 18 fleets and they are getting stronger. It is almost painfully slow to watch, but it IS there. People that are getting a taste of Catamaran sailing on Rotomold products aren't likely to jump into the F-18 class of boats, however they could buy a new 14/16/17/18, based on their particular wants and needs and step right into a strong fleet where they can learn and be competitive. Whether HCC likes it or not, the H-16 is not a one size fits all boat.
It is a matter of HCC as a company looking at the situation, and finding a way to make it profitable to continue to supply some of it's other great products as the growth curve begins to reestablish itself. It is my opinion that the F-18 Class is a great boat, and a great class. However, it's growth potential is somewhat limited. It is a boat that is very expensive, very physically demanding, not suited to the
weekend warrior
type of racer, and because of its status as a development class a rather expensive boat to own and race over a period of years. One of the real drawing cards of HCC's one design products was they were cheap to keep. Another drawing card was the fact that you could show up and race in a group of peers, i.e. the A, B, C, Fleet concept. It will be years if ever that the F-18 class is as rookie friendly as the other Hobie products.
There will always be those that want the latest and greatest technology, the newest and fastest boat available, and have the money and the time to chase that ever elusive rabbit. In my opinion, if you look to the past to see the future, strong fleets and class racing instead of portsmouth racing is what will ensure the continued strength of the sport.
When you consider the percentage of new boat sales to racers, how do you view the Hobie USA focus on Roto molded boats?
I am open minded, lets hear some well thought out opinions on Hobie’s responsibility to the racers.
Not everyone thought the Wave was a joke. Strong, owner-controled class with racing of a quality that often surprises anyone willing to take the chance - I love my Wave for what it is. <img src=
alt=
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My question is... Do you think that the folks buying the Wave's and Getaways are at all interested in joining a fleet that races? How about a recreational fleet??
It all depends on the sailor of course. We should nurture that relationship more I think. We have a few Wave sailors in our local Fleet and I think 2 Getaway sailors. That's a far cry from the 12 Getaways we sold in the summer of 1999 when I worked at O'neills and countless more since. So to answer your question probably most of them are not interested in joining a fleet.
Thinking about it more, a lot of newbies are intimidated by sailing in general and prefer to sail by themselves, learning from their own mistakes. To help the situation maybe we as more experienced sailors could help them out a little more (I know many of us do already). Maybe a
try a cat
day in our fleets. Focusing less on PBO standing rigging, and diamond wire tension, and more on fun. That's the way to get people out on the water in my opinion. Invite them to crew even though you might not place well.
Getting into cat sailing has been described to me by newbies as a very difficult club to break into. They don't know what we're saying half the time at our fleet meetings. That's where boats like the plastic models come in to play. They are less intimidating, and newbies are comfortable on them.
I've been trying to figure these things out for years--it's my
marketing research
. It's a moving target though, so it's difficult.
I am puzzled about where all of these waves and getaways go.
There's a lot of water out there! <img src=
alt=
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marketing research
. It's a moving target though, so it's difficult.
Throw in a one year fleet membership with every boat sold. Follow up by calling the owner with event info. Drag them to a fun sail and introduce them around. Focus on the social aspects and the sailing will follow.
Host a
scavenger hunt
type regatta, where everyone has to collect various items (no particular order).
Sort of a distance race, but more of a
steeplechase
strategy (no particular order in which items must be retrieved). Pair up a racing crew with a newbie crew (and require the boats stay together). Racing crew can assist newbie crew in setup/tuning, or even switch crews (one newbie on each boat)
Awards based on randomly pre-selected (and unknown to competitors - for instance:
winner
is third team to finish with all items) finish position.
Entry fees are used to purchase items from sponsor organizations (sunscreen, sailing hats, gear pouches, inflatable duckie raft, BEER, Cigars, etc.) to be used as the 'scavange items'
Choose a day (as best as possible) with pleasant conditions. Protected lake/bay would be ideal, with multiple places to locate the scavenger stops.
Maybe keep total distance under 15 miles.
pirate day; chop up a lake map into several pieces and put them at checkpoints that can only be located by re-assembling the next piece you just found...sprinkle in a few puzzles with special names for coves and clues.
Throw in a tip and tie race too.