Just watched the 505's start 100 plus boats at their worlds.
It looked like the fairest way to start a big race that I have seen..... No bumper boats... It looks like everyone gets a fair start.
Usually, the 505's start after us and the description on the beach was usually a night mare.. BUT... after watching some of the starts... I think they know something that we don't
Has any cat fleet tried this at a big event?
Mark,
As I'm not watching the 505 worlds I don't know what you mean. Any more info?
Regards,
Phill
Hardly an expert here but..
The problem with a big start is that only a handful get good starts... a handful get fair starts and many get tanked. This situation shifts the results to ... winning the start = the game.
The 505's use the 10th' place boat as a pathfinder boat.
This boat will sail close hauled on port tack starting from the starting area at time = zero. the pathfinder is a rabbit followed by a powerboat or gate boat. At t = zero this boat is racing the course but must continue on Port until released at a set time by the Mark boat or after the last starter has crossed. If released by the gate boat... the Gate boat itself is the rabbit and continues off to the right side of the course until the gate is closed on an agreed upon time.
So...it seems everyone gets a fair shot at a lane going upwind... and you are not screwed by the screwup of someone else on the starting line.
If you take the transom of the gate boat.... You have started at time = zero. (relative to going up wind anywhere on his track up wind)... if you start further back from his transom ... you were a bit late.... you might have clear air.. but you gave up the distance between you and the boat crossing the pathfinder's transom.
The Fleet positions them selves up wind and when the gate opens... they are free to start on starboard... cross the pathfinder and race the course.
In addition... The chaos of calling OCS's is gone. You can't be PMS unless you jump the gun at Time = zero
I must admit... I would like to try it out in a big fleet and see how it works.
Phill,
Gate starts work by using one boat in the fleet (usually the 4th boat to finish the previous race) to open the start line by sailing along on port protected by (usually 3) power boats; one in front; one to leeward and one behind which is the end of the line.
The gate boat sails past the pin end of the line and then sails on port upwind opening the gate; the gate boat (and protective power boats) have rights and all other boats start on stbd having ducked the stern of the gate boat. The boat sails for a pre-defined amount of time and then is released to sail on (the gate boat does not need to cross the line).
The tactics for a gate start are different. It can depend on who is the gate boat (as they control the speed it opens), if the gate boat on a lift (thus good to wait till later), or Header (start early); is the gate boat sailing into foul tide (start early); or into good tide (start late). Etc…
Mark, interesting idea. Do you know if there are any You Tube videos posted yet so we can all see it?
Bailey has tried to convince me of the wisdom of these types of starts - and to be honest, I don't like the sound of them.
Mark, We used these starts in the Tasar Worlds in Australia with 122 boats competing and it worked very well. I have never seen this used in cat racing but can think of no reason that it would not work as well. The Tasar class used the ninth boat to finish as the rabbit for the next start. The idea was to get a fast boat but not the fastest. If it was the fastest boat then that placed too much pressure on waiting to start later because you would start part way up the course at the same speed as the fastest boat in the fleet and it removed the top boat's starting options. It is way preferable over using the black flag option.
Mark,
Thanks for the description.
We used to use it at our club when no one wanted to man the start boat because everyone wanted to sail. It worked well without the use of a power boat but the fleet was only small.
It would be ineresting to see it used in a very large cat fleet. It may level the playing field a little and bring more racing tactics into the game.
Regards,
Phill
They have a similar start sequence at the Eurocat (Carnac) long-distance race, there should be some pictures of it somewhere (no time to look for them myself right now).
Timbo, The only gate start I can think of on youtube involves a motorboat and 800 windsurfers, at La Defi Wind in Gruissan, France. At 2:30min into the video is the start, the preamble is day 1 where only the pro`s took part, something about 50knots of wind being too much to let the whole fleet out - sensible, as it`s blowing offshore.
If you watch the start you`ll see the motorboat head on what would be a port close reach at around 30knots, which is the speed the windsurfers should be doing across his stern, although many were early and had to slow it down..
Now just slow the process down by half for cats, and again by half for dinghies.. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
http:/
Haven't they used a helicopter between trawlers at Texel. It would be easy to see if anyone was over the line as they would probably have been blown over by the down wash!
Thanks for the video Steve! I hope to get down to Cape Town if/when Delta starts flying there. Right now the closest I can get is Joburg but that's a long drive from Cape Town!
Check out this vid
at minute 1:02
that was cool...and interesting. So is there a countdown to when the rabbit hits the port pin and starts his crossing? I do think that the rabbit suffers some disadvantage in not getting to choose the side of the course and he can be a real target when folks start shutting the door on other boats and I would hate for my week to end by being t-boned that way. But it's definitely interesting.
Rabbit/gate starts are great for practice for 5-20 boats but after that they get a bit sketchy.
The Buzzards Bay Regatta uses them every year for 505's and Vanguard 15s... i've done it with 80+ Vanguard 15s and there are some hairy close encounters with the rabbit, early/late duckers, and etc.
This wouldn't work very well in catamarans... for one it requires reaching to go sail under the rabbit and then heading up.... this would be way to fast and dangerous in close quarters with other boats. In addition, people do purposely avoid being the rabbit as it is usually a slight disadvantage (can also be an advantage) ... at BBR it is the 7th place boat from the previous race that becomes the rabbit and often you will see people give up 7th place right before the finish to avoid being the rabbit.
I've also seen the rabbit hit many times in slower, more maneuverable monohulls.
It is the fairest way to start but it takes away the importance of having the skill of knowing how to do a traditional start.
it looked like the RIB behind the
rabbit
was the actual line... correct?
rabbit
was the actual line... correct?
yes; and usually there is a boat to leeward of the gate (sailing) boat to protect it.
The
rabbit
starts at the committee boat on a port (or star. this is pre arranged ) tack upwind and is followed by the RIB as the line opens up the other racers cross the line (the line being between the committee boat and the RIB) on the opposite tack.
You could tack over right after crossing and go up the rabbits tack if you think he is on a better line.
The Rabbit is protected by the RIB so will have at least a tack advantage. This method eliminates choosing which side of the line is favored, but you will have to decide which side of the course is. If you start early and want to go right you will have all kinds of starboard boats to deal with as they are on equal footing with a Rabbit start.
This is a tricky start to get used to if you have not done it before. We use it for practice days with 5 to 7 boats on the water and no committee.
This is a tricky start to get used to if you have not done it before. We use it for practice days with 5 to 7 boats on the water and no committee.
If the line is established by a boat on port tack as he moves up the course close hauled - technically no side of the start line is favored...right? I mean as long as the mark is pretty square to the starting area.
but what if there's more pressure on the right?
I was talking about the bias of the start line (when a static, mostly perpendicular, line is skewed). The course is a different matter.
If you think you have more pressure on the right... you start late and tack onto port right away.
Dan.... Would you care to comment on the upcoming F18 starts and how appropriate a rabbit start might be...
The F18's and the 16's are the only US fleets large enough to warrant a switch. (assuming the politics of a change could be worked out)
My opinion is NO RABBIT START AT NATIONALS! Starting is a skill and those that do it better deserve to be rewarded.
Hmm... would you have the same point of view if you were put out of racing for a day with your rudders taken off... or a hole in your boat.
Near as I can tell watching the 505's... there is a real skill to be starting at speed on the butt of the gate boat. LOTS of boats were late and crossing seconds back.
What I did not see was boat damage... even in big breeze.
Just to see if we have the same objective.
Ding.... with 50 F18's... how long of a start line should be set?
Enough line so everyone in the fleet should be able to get a place on the first row and hold it.... the start is a skill but NOT the dominant skill.
or
It's a jungle out there.... three rows of boats deep sorts the men from the boys...
The F18's and the 16's are the only US fleets large enough to warrant a switch. (assuming the politics of a change could be worked out)
It would take quite a bit to get used to from what we are doing now. Upside is there is no second row starters unless a bunch of boats try to go behind the Rabbit all at the same time. The 505s have been doing it forever and they seem to like it okay. I am not familiar enough with it to know what the leeward boat tries to do to the windward boat.
We can start 7 boats in practice racing with a Rabbit and it works out well. We all know that we are all even after the start so we can work on boatspeed and handling.
I like the dynamics of a gate style start-line that may be a bit skewed depending on conditions, may not be quite big enough for everyone to get a good start, and which you have to make many determinations before the start.
I think the Rabbit will lead to a
fairer
start for more boats though. This method would be good for people not accustomed to big fleet starts.
I have done both and it comes down to
I just want to race
.
Later,
Dan
I can affirmatively say there will be no rabbit starts at the F18 North Americans next week - unless the competitors overwhelmingly want it. I don't see that happening.
The staring line will be approximately 1,250 ft (300 meters / 0.20 nm) long (56 x 18 x 1.25). Longer if the conditions warrant (big breeze / waves / adverse current [yes, there are currents on the Great Lakes])
We will be using a boat as the pin. There will be four sets of eyes on the line - two primary spotters and two backups.
That is not the longest line I've had to call.
Hi Matt
Certainly not advocating any changes coming up... My point is... sailors should take a look at the rabbit start and then look at the big F18 start and CONSIDER the gate starts while you are there. (If you don't ask the question... you don't get people to take a fair look and then you get knee jerk or uninformed opinions)
My hunch is... many sailors will go WOW... that's a long line! ... (because local PRO's are not following that formula). I lost this argument for last years Alter cup line length... (Its even more vital in an open class start)
When both starts are conducted properly (Rabbit for 3 minutes and standard 300 m line... ... everyone gets a fair start.
However, when you tell a PRO to set that length of line...300 meters.... they get about half way there and then their dinghy mentality takes over and they drop the pin. This is what most of us are used to at the local level!
THEN you have to fight to not be on the second row... in breeze... can you say bumper boats. A Cats are VERY sensitive to this issue and usually blame the #%#%% sailors... not the RC for the stress test that is a race start!
At the minimum.... the F18 will KNOW what length of line is fair for their turnouts.....
Mark this is what we have be working for!!! Big fleets big starts and for f#ck sake Mark this isn't my first rodeo. We had 50+ F18's at Virgina Beach in 05 and not a single boat was holed and every rudder managed to stay on. You act like 50 boats is a scary large number and nobody will survive, it aint a big deal quit making it something it's not.