Racing Rules: "Barging"

A good crew on L will not let W in there, but the only legal way to keep W out is to luff with enough time such that W can't get overlapped with the stern of the signal boat. If that happens, L has allowed W space to which W was not entitled, but at that point has no recourse (especially not luffing W into the signal boat).

From Mike's post... I was unaware that overlap to the Signal Boat. I thought it was overlap on the clear ahead boat..

So if the signal boat is longer than the boats sailing, an overlap could be established by W if they cross the stern of the signal boat, even before they reach the stern of L?

Don't think of it in terms of

overlapped with

the signal boat. Instead, concentrate on

room to keep clear

of the signal boat. When L changes course to shut W out, she needs to give W enough space that W can avoid the mark (and meet her other obligations) by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way. Certainly, if W already has her bow under the stern of the signal boat, L has waited too long. It may, however, also be too late even before W reaches the signal boat. There's no set distance or time; L simply must give W enough space to peel away in the existing conditions.

man, all that thinking makes my head hurt. But very good information to consider.

Different application of the word overlap.
Stealing images from the web.
Here Leeward is warning windward off in time and by sailing close-hauled is demonstrating the intent to not allow windward in.

Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.

so if Green at position 2 has no way to keep clear without hitting the starting boat, Red position 2 has to give way, correct?

If Red at position 1 had luffed harder (pointing right at starboard corner of starting boat) she could have possibly peeled Green off of the starting area? wait... it says Green had the overlap on Red at position 1

Everything Eric is saying lines up with my view on this as well. I used

overlap

as a loose term as mentioned.

Barging

is also not a real term for this issue, but most racers will know what this means.

What I find interesting is that many top rules experts have published articles on this subject. While most talk in terms that we are here, there is at least one that says if L let's W in, L can protest even if there's no contact. I believe there was a case or appeal about that, ruling as Eric and I state here (L will lose the protest), but I can't find it at the moment.

BTW, thanks for posting those diagrams.

Mike

What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact. Based on what I'm reading here W's chances are pretty good they would be exonerated in a protest. All W has to do is sell that they where pinned by the RC and had an overlap on L. Clearly barging isn't an automatic loser.

I see you speak wisdom, o barge-ed master?

grass-hoppa seek knowredge...

If L has closed the door on W in time, but W goes in anyway and L has to take avoiding action, then W breaks RRS 11. If protest committee finds those facts, then L should prevail in the hearing.

I hope that helps,
Eric

so when is that? before overlap I presume?

When L changes course to shut W out, she needs to give W enough space that W can avoid the mark (and meet her other obligations) by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way. If so, L has met her obligation under RRS 16.1.

Originally Posted by bobcat

Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.

This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Originally Posted by Isotope235

Originally Posted by bobcat

Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.

This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Thank you. I thought it was just me.

I'm still struggling with

shutting the door

and

let them in

. In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms

let them in

and

shut the door

just seem way to open to interpretation. As a judge what do you expect to hear when these two arguments are being made? I know you've said once W is pinned by the boat it's game over W wins. I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it!

Yup, that's my bad. I liked the picture and didn't take the time to understand what they were demonstrating.
My apologies for confusing the issue.

I think that the advice here would be to start collecting witnesses. You do that by loudly hailing your intent as indicated in the first drawing.

Originally Posted by David Ingram

Originally Posted by Isotope235

Originally Posted by bobcat

Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.

This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Thank you. I thought it was just me.

I'm still struggling with

shutting the door

and

let them in

. In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms

let them in

and

shut the door

just seem way to open to interpretation. As a judge what to you expect to hear when these two arguments are being made. I know you've said once W is pinned by the boat it's game over W wins. I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it!

Yeah, I was over here going

wubudu, what?

with regards to that diagram. I would say that if the orange boat was the starting boat the the starting end of the line, the red boats have established intent and direction to leave no room at the orange boat, the green boats would need to avoid both reds and the start boat.

That diagram seems to indicate that the flag is the right end of the starting line and that orange boat happens to be some race committee just sitting there (which I have seen before...usually in sloppy beer can races where one of the mark boats loosely tie up to the committee boat.

Which does beg an interesting question. If the sailing instructions don't indicate how to treat this boat that is moored up to the official starting boat (as an extension of that boat or whatever), how do you treat it?

Shut the door

is not a term used in the rules, but rather a convenient metaphor (probably from the days of door-to-door salesmen -- you had to shut it before they got a

foot in the door

). What I mean by it is that L, when she changes course to the point where there is no room for W to pass between her and the mark/committee boat, at that time W must have an opportunity to avoid the mark (by slowing down or passing it on the other side. If so (and L thereafter holds her course), then L has

shut the door

on W. If L waits until W can no longer avoid the mark by slowing down or turning away before changing course, then L has

let her in

.

When talking to sailors about starting tactics, I often advise that they take a transit on the layline to the signal boat. That way, they know where to turn close-hauled in order to shut out windward boats (without getting shut out themselves). Provided you don't let them get clear ahead of you, you can

close the door

on windward boats well back of the signal boat.

I hope that helps,
Eric

The people on the race committee boat make excellent witnesses. They are impartial and have an up-close view of the incident (you know they are watching <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />)

This rule seems to say if someone camps behind the start boat making a little headway they own the start

This used to be problematic, but was addressed with a change the last time the rules were updated. The definition of mark says

...an object attached accidentally to a mark is not part of it

, meaning that a chase boat intentionally tied up to the signal boat is part of the mark. The definition used to say

...attached temporarily or accidentally...

, which led to the problem you're concerned about.

Note that this wording of the definition allows race committee to use a

barging buoy

without worrying about how to write the sailing instruction. A

barging buoy

is an object that RC attaches to the stern of the committee boat to keep boats a little farther away. This reduces the chance of collision with (and damage to) the committee boat -- which helps reassure signal boat owners.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Well you have never seen Randy Smyth back up a boat into position.

Chris Christensen used to sneak in around the bow of the signal vessel and sail stern-first behind the line. Chris was pretty sick in heavy pressure by doing this and pulling the trigger while the creepers were trying to dig out of the hole.

Unless one had worked on their approach angle and pulled the trigger without fear, then Chris would be gone!!!

Randy is so smooth he can gain an open start, in clear air, with no chance of rules entanglement. He is always on point with his timing and can really jump out with YO!, his F 25 C.

Here is a diagram of a classic barging situation. The boats are approaching the mark (which is a signal boat) to start.

Rules 18 and 19 do not apply between Blue and Yellow. Yellow is not entitled to room at the mark. Yellow is obligated to keep clear of Blue by rule 11.

Blue is not changing course in this diagram, so rule 16.1 does not apply to her. There's no room for Yellow between Blue and the mark, so she has to turn away.

And here's a scenario where the leeward boat

shuts the door

in time.

At positions 2 and 3, Blue changes course and is obligated by RRS 16.1 to give Yellow room to keep clear. Yellow responds promptly, meeting her obligation to keep clear of Blue, but has to turn away to miss the mark.

Here I've drawn Blue shutting the door on Yellow in time, but Yellow goes below the mark anyway.

Yellow breaks RRS 11. Blue takes avoiding action as required by RRS 14 and protests. Blue should win this protest.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Here's a diagram where the leeward boat does not

close the door

on the windward boat.

In this scenario, Blue does not act to

close the door

on Yellow. She holds her course and Yellow takes advantage of the room given. Neither boat breaks a rule. Blue should lose this protest.

And, here's a drawing that shows the leeward boat

closing the door

too late.

When Blue changes course, she does not give Yellow room to keep clear. Blue breaks RRS 16.1. Yellow breaks RRS 31 (Touching a Mark) but is exonerated under RRS 64.1(a). Yellow should win this protest.

I hope that helps,
Eric

This rule interpretation seems to be, If I'm on starboard and I have my bow tucked behind the start boat and he is backing from in front of the start boat with water to go where ever he wants he must stay clear of me as does the rest of the fleet

That all helps a ton Eric! I still want to find the case I'm thinking of, it might be a case where L actually pushed W into the boat.

Didn't they do a weird start mark like that at Tradewinds or one of those winter races a year or so ago?

Eric beat me to the answer about stuff tied to a mark. What I want to know is how to write the SIs such that a barging buoy is NOT part of the boat, which most of us are used to. As the rule is written, if you hit a barging buoy, you hit the starting boat, and because that is part of the definitions, it can't be changed by the SIs.

I brought this up with US Sailing during the change, and the person I asked said not to worry, the intent wasn't to lock it down so tightly. I have yet to see SIs that change it (at least, not properly).

I asked about it again at the meeting again in FL last year, and was advised that it was their intent to lock it down, and they didn't think anyone would mind, but encouraged me to submit a request to change the rule.

The problem was that the way the old rule was written, the issue was the same but in reverse. SIs couldn't make the bouy part of the boat (legally), which is desired with really big, expensive and slowly maneuvering boats.

For me, the goal is to make sure the signal boat doesn't get hit, not the buoy. Our cats are maneuverable enough to usually stay away from the signal boat with a gentle reminder of a buoy out there. Those buoys tend to move around an awful lot, and I don't think it's especially fair to penalize a small boat for contacting the buoy.

Besides, even though I'm usually not looking behind me nearly as much as Eric gives me credit for (too much else to focus on at the actual line), I did see at least one boat hit my barging buoy on Sunday. Life is way too short to go to the room over that, even though I doubt anyone else could have seen it. He should have been protested for barging anyway...

Mike

There are two rules that bear on this situation. RRS 22.3 states

a boat moving astern through the water by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not

. If the boat clear ahead is

backing a sail

, then she must keep clear. If she is drifting backwards without backing a sail, then the other boat must keep clear (RRS 12).

Second, a boat's

course

is the direction she is pointing or moving. When the boat ahead stops moving forward and starts moving backward (without backing a sail), she is changing course and must give the boat astern room to keep clear (per RRS 16.1). That boat must react to the ahead boat's course change promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear.

As you note, SI's may not change the definitions. The barging buoy is part of the mark. You really don't want to change that. If you could, then there's an argument that the buoy is an obstruction and that inside boats are entitled to room. Then the buoy, which is intended to reduce barging, actually promotes it.

If you really, really want to allow boats to touch the barging buoy (which I still don't recommend), I suggest the SI's simply change the penalty (to no penalty).

I hope that helps,
Eric

BRILLIANT!!!

Come out with me some time, Eric. With the waves and current we see, you'll be stunned how much that mark moves. For small boats, especially Optis, the line holding the buoy can be as long as the racing boats. The buoys are often so small that it would be tough to know if you (or another boat) actually hit it.

Not fair, and certainly not my goal with small boats.

Mike