Racing Rules: "Right of Way"

This might sound odd, but let's back up and pretend that the wiggle and smash never happened, but just look at it until the point where the wiggle started.

As I see the video, S never stopped turning down. Even if she had, that would have given P only 1-2 seconds to avoid. Either way, that's not enough time for P to keep clear (in those conditions on those boats, etc.).

You can disagree, but that's how I see it.

Mike

S did absolutely stop turning down. You can see them turn sharply to starboard for about 1/2 second upon realizing that P appeared to be intent on crossing. If you can't see it by looking at the boat, look at her wake and use other boat wakes for comparison. You'll also see her start to heel more dramatically (and accelerate) as she turns to starboard to attempt to avoid. I see two distinct sharp turns by H7 (S) - one to starboard to avoid and, upon realizing P changed course, and one sharp turn to port. That's about as fast as you can expect those scows to turn at those angles. I think if you have a video from on board of H7 looking forward, you would have no doubt that they made a significant attempt to avoid P. I'm not sure why several of you don't see H7's actions in this video. With it maximized in HD, I can even see H7's tiller move sharply as he tries to turn both directions.

Once this sequence has happened, if I'm at the helm, I've got two things in my mind. 1) collision is now unavoidable. 2) I'm in the middle of a lot of other boats (including another port tacker trying to cross this mess). As a result, I would try to minimize my maneuvering to reduce the chance that I create more carnage around me with my actions and reduce the chances of hurting anyone...I would just take it square on the bow just like H7 did. I'm blown away by the number of you experienced guys that are holding H7's feet at (partial) fault for the impact. It makes me realize how much of a gamble any protest hearing can be.

Here's the video link again...this time queued up to the moment H7 starts to round the offset.

+1
It seems to me the

duty of the boat with rights to avoid a collision rule

was written to keep boats from bumping while taking up another boat or a way to avoid massive damage to prove your point, not a scapegoat and a way to pin the stupidity ,of the guilty port boat in this case, on the other guy, as some of you seem to be trying to do.
As Jake said a gamble in the protest room ,but it also makes me wonder how much of a gamble it is being on the race course with some of you, if that's the way you think.

Back up before the wiggle and calm down. Can't we have an open minded discussion about this without directly or indirectly insulting one another?

My opinion: I see S as changing course (turning down) continuously until she turns up (start of wiggle). To me, she didn't ever straighten her course before turning up to avoid. If you follow 16.1 as written, S cannot do that, as P needs to be able to keep clear. P was sailing a course to the weather mark, and took the stern (kept clear of) the prior starboard boat. S was rounding the mark, and turning the whole time.

It's easy to blame P for the whole thing, but 16.1 is a very important rule.

Mike

I should have left the time stamp on the first image, but here is the video at 32 seconds, where S would have HAD to begin aborting her bear away in order to do what you ask of her to avoid breaking 16.1. In my opinion, there is absolutely no way S could even begin to fathom that P would continue on their course into the string of starboard boats and I wouldn't expect her to start taking avoiding action. In particular, P has plenty of room to maneuver to her left to avoid the starboard boats. With regards to rule 16.1, at T-32 seconds, S is within about 10 degrees to her starboard downwind course and even if she holds this higher angle, P has PLENTY of room to keep clear with the course S has established. S's manuever to turn downwind was also concise (not to mention completely expected- although I realize this isn't part of the rule).

This is at T=32 seconds

Now, moving forward just a little less than 2 seconds, it becomes clear that P is intent on passing through the string of boats. S starts taking an avoiding action to starboard precisely at this point. If P had held her course, S would have been able to avoid her with her action. Unfortunately, P did not hold her course and steered up instead.

A little less than 2 seconds later:

So, I guess your argument boils down to at what point you think S should have identified P as a possible collision course. I think the point where it was clear that P was not keeping clear was at T=34seconds - precisely when S did attempt to maneuver to avoid P.

I think the reason that we (and by

we

, I mean several of us) reach different conclusions, is that we look at the video and see different things. Because we disagree on the facts, we will disagree on the decision - and there may be no choice but to

agree to disagree

.

If you believe that at time 0:31, that P is fully committed to passing in front of S, and that from that time there is nothing that P can subsequently do do avoid contact then yes, S later turns down and breaks rules 16.1 and 14. In that case, P should be exonerated for breaking rule 10 (under rule 64.1(a)) and, because it was not reasonably possible for her to avoid contact, P does not break rule 14.

If, on the other hand, you think that P could reasonably have taken some action to avoid contact at times 0:32-0:34, but did not, then S does not break rules 14 nor 16.1. P breaks rules 10 and 14 and is not exonerated.

When I look at the video, I feel that P could have acted to avoid S at times 0:32-0:34 but did not. Therefore, I conclude that S broke no rules, and P broke rules 10 and 14.

Although you may look at ISAF Cases 60 (

when a right-of-way boat changes course in such a way that a keep-clear boat, despite having taken avoiding action promptly, cannot keep clear in a seamanlike way, the right-of-way boat breaks rule 16.1

) and 92 (

when a right-of-way boat changes course, the keep-clear boat is required to act only in response to what the right-of-way boat is doing at the time, not what the right-of-way boat might do subsequently

) and place the burden of keeping clear on boat S, you should also look at Case 75, which states

a starboard-tack boat that changes course does not break rule 16.1 if she gives a port-tack boat adequate space to keep clear and the port-tack boat fails to take advantage of it promptly

. I believe that M87(P) failed to take advantage of the space that H7(S) gave her. Therefore, H7(S) did not break rule 16.1.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Well I think we can conclude that P is a bonehead, butt, nimbwit to think she could ever shoot that gap. . .
<img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

I didn't think I was, but if anyone feels like I was being insulting, I apologize. It was not my intent.

I didn't see any insult and if there was... yikes, we have become quite delicate! Heck even Todd was pleasant, well pleasant for Todd anyway 🙂

Oh wait now I see it... F@!#k you Jake!

Thanks. Case 75 helps a lot. I think we all agree that P had plenty of water to turn upwind sooner. I am just trying to determine when she HAD to.

FWIW, I've been trying not to let my gut feelings dictate, which are screaming to chuck P at all costs...

Mike

I know...I've been resisting the urge to post something about how that entire port approach at the pin was not smart. I couldn't find the exact rule number to cite for that. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

And, hey, Ding...yeah. I'm saving up my insults for F18 NAs!

wow... that's going to sound like an ADHD with turettes

Promptly. See the definition of room. When in doubt about exactly what constitutes

promptly

, substitute the phrase

without delay

.

Let's talk about something else... Barging! Saw some interesting stuff behind the signal boat at Roton Point this weekend. At one point, I actually heard a windward boat tell a leeward boat (who should have known better),

You have to give me room!

as he was reaching in from several lengths away...

I know that L has to close the door before W gets to the signal boat (you can't luff someone into the signal boat and survive the hearing), but this was pretty blatant.

Mike

Or, you could check my video to make sure I described the Port/ Port/ Windward mark situation correctly? That would continue to be helpful...:)

yes, interesting topic. Let me get my head on straight here with a few definitions:

- Am I correct in reading the RRS that

a boat has no proper course before her starting signal

?

-

starting signal

being later defined as the start (removal of class flag)? the signal flags (class, prep, etc) all refer to

Minutes before starting signal

- Barging, in this discussion, would mean someone sailing into a position where there is not enough room for them? And they're hoping that room will open up for them either by happenstance or freaking out the other boats?

If those parameters are agreed, I can't see where this

barging

behavior wouldn't involve huge potential for contact/fouling by the barging party.

Experts, please weigh in...

The first two points are correct. Barging most often happens when a boat (W) sees what looks like a nice space to leeward of the signal boat, and to windward of the nearest racing boat (L). That space usually goes away quickly as the clock winds down. A good crew on L will not let W in there, but the only legal way to keep W out is to luff with enough time such that W can't get overlapped with the stern of the signal boat. If that happens, L has allowed W space to which W was not entitled, but at that point has no recourse (especially not luffing W into the signal boat).

At least, that's how I understand it. There are rules and cases if anyone wants to do a little digging...

Mike

I think barging is a significant enough topic to deserve its own thread, so I created Racing Rules:

. Let's discuss it there rather than further hijacking this thread.

Regards,
Eric

Is this video related to the incident described on page 1 of this thread? If so, wish we had this sooner. The green boat was clearly fouled if contact was made. From what I can tell, green didn't alter course and rounded very close to the mark.

Mike

Yes page one, related to the situation I described. Green (Windward/clear ahead at the zone/ inside at the mark) did turn up, not to avoid leeward, but to round the mark as quickly as possible...

So I take it my description of the situation matches the video? I think you had a thread about how video footage is often different than how boats involved present their case.

The rest of your discussion was helpful as well. It caused me to recall that in most cases another boat force my to tack.