Reefer Madness

You should try that with a set of beach wheels tied under the hulls.

wheels help it point better? (jk)

No, they do not.

No, they do not.

Don't ask you how you know that, right <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

I've thought that if caught out in a big FL thunder/lightning storm, I'd drop the main and turtle the boat on purpose, then float on my back between the hulls.

Then after the storm passes, try to figure out how to right the boat...

Anyone got a good technique for righting a turtled cat? (I'm thinking walk out on the bows and wait?)

The thread title should be reefing madness since there was an anti weed psy-op movie all those years ago titled reefer madness.
i qualify as being anyone so here is a comment for Timbo;
It depends on the cat, but if it is small enough you just stand on the bottom of a hull and pull on the righting line with steady pressure until wind can get under the tramp. Pick the right hull to stand on so that the wind can get under the tramp and help you. Otherwise it could be the sterns that you would want to stand on to sink in to get the tramp exposed to the wind, lifting the bows, then rolling over on it's side. The front part of the boat is more buoyant on a lot of the cats so it may be easier to stand on a stern. Steady pressure on a righting line helps quite a bit no matter which way you are trying to pull the boat up.

+1,

I've learned in the years at least a dozen catsailor friends this procedure at sea. A little remark, pick always the off-wind hull to stand on. The sooner the wind will catch the windward hull and help you turning the whole thing on its side.
At sea this often places you also on the

down-wave

side. Then with a lot of luck the next big wave can even push the cat in one second completely up to horizontal!

With modern cats this whole procedure should be easier than in the old days. Standing on the upside sharp hull of a Prindle or a H14/16 is far from easy and you ended up trying to balance on the small flange-rims on the side of the hull. I've seen guys with totally grazed underlegs when they slipped off this rim.

P.S. When practising this, pick deep enough water!!!

Go as far astern as possible, if you are with two, clinch together.

On a H16, all you need to do is sit, not stand, on the leeward stern. This is the only way to do it in rough water. Any attempt to stand will result in getting wet and/ or hurt.

Mike

Fun or NO fun heavy weather sailing is Definitely something
worth learning ; it could save your life one day !!

@ northsea junkie :
Try not to laugh at someone because they don't want to increase
the odds for being a Victim. Problem with some is that by NOT
learning to deal with the stronger stuff ; there actually placing
themselves at Greater risk !!

NO i am NOT !!!

* What i AM saying, is that knowing what to do in stronger wind
is a good back-up plan.

** And second ) 30+ wind on a (4 X 10-mile) lake, is a FAR cry
from what you get in the Central Fl / Gulf of Mexico. You
must think i'm Stupid , by trying to make a comparison ?
Your playing in open water, and I'm playing in a Pond with
a Lot of exits at my disposal !

Bille

The guys in that Hobie race
on Mohave a while back ; they ALL would have bin safer with
the ability to reef there sails , that week .

THIS IS THE

BEST POST EVER

; with a dude complaining about a
bunch of Over Powered cat sailors in strong winds. He kinda
summed up my argument on WHY it's a good idea to Reef a sail :

Mike, I didn't say it was that easy. Like everyhing mentioned in this thread, it needs practice.
Look below for two sitting sailors in turtle position:

They have the uphaul-line over the wrong bow. It should be just over the middle from the front-beam.

But even then it can be a hell of a job. Look below 4 men on a lake, no wind, flat water:

They also didn't quite understand the trick of pushing only one hull down and let the cat fall on its side.

So, the idea of Timbo: pulling the cat in stormy conditions on purpose in capsize position with the risk of turtle needs a few requirements:
You have to be sure that in case of turtle you can help yourself and you have to be sure the mast is watertight.

Mind you, if you put a ball in the mast (may be only in rough conditions), you don't have all these problems. With a ball in the top you don't come so easy in a turtle position, but if you do, you don't have to do anything.
Cat will right itself to 90 degrees.

dang, Tim. If it's that bad and I know it's coming, I'll lower the mast entirely. Takes about 15 minutes, but again, if it's that bad there is no telling how fast I could really get that thing down...

~ i agree

Forcing a boat to turtle when it's windier than hell is harder than you'd think. A few years ago I was caught in a storm where it was reported to be blowing 60mph, (I don't think it was over 40 where we were though), and I tried to turtle the boat to keep the sails from flogging and lower our profile because there was lightning about. I couldn't get it to go, but it was basically in position, so to speak, to be righted. We were drifting very quickly. I'm actually kinda surprised it didn't self right. I've had a H16 do that on me in big wind.

Dive in the water and swimm to the top of the mast. Turn it with the cat completely leeward. Then push the masttop down under you, stand on it in the water. With a stormy wind drifting you leeward, the cat will push itself turtle.

As part of learning about my new boat, a Viper F16, and how it behaves in various configurations, I tried the

jib only

thing in light air this weekend. The lee helm was pretty much unmanageable and even a beam reach was barely doable. I had a similar experience when caught in a thunderstorm many years ago on an 18' P-Cat on Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR. I dropped the main to reduce sail, but then could make no headway to windward, and the lee helm was wicked. I ended up going with the wind and beaching on the side of the lake opposite of where I really wanted to be and waiting it out. Fortunately, it was a friendly sand beach and not a pile of big rocks. If you want to reduce sail heading downwind, jib-only is an option. Going to weather, forget it. I've also beached a Hobie 18 downwind (actually the beach I wanted to go to this time) with the main down and the jib furled. It was surprisingly fast in this configuration! I have no idea how strong the wind was, but it was way too much.

Anyway, good discussion. I agree that it's good to know what your options are when you get caught in more wind than you really want to be out in.

Ok, well...with a boat on it's side in a ripping wind, there's no way you are swimming out to the end of the mast on purpose. I've been in situations where I was lucky to just be able to stay with the boat...even with a hand hold on trampoline lacing, the boat was moving so fast on it's side I couldn't climb aboard without help. This was in about 30+. There would be no way I could swim out to the end of the mast and certainly no way I could swim the boat into a mast-downwind orientation. Auto-righting was a definite possibility and we were rushing to try and get into a righting position quickly so we would be ready in any case.

Auto-righting is scary. I take that as a direct statement from the boat that she's had enough and wants me to take her to the beach immediately.

Mike

Bingo. I ain't leaving my happy place on the low hull while its on its side for nothing. Sitting there sucks, swimming and watching your boat drift away sucks much more.

When I capsize, I'm used to dive and swim to the masttop. That's necessary because I have a net-tramp which catches no wind. So my capsized cat has no tendency to float with weight displacement to the correct uprighting position.
So I nearly always have to swim the mast to that position. And then I have to go back to my lower hull as quick as possible before it changes its position to the wind.

I do that always by using the shroud of the lower hull .Passing my hands quickly.(with gloves on!).

Ofcourse I wonder what I would do in the hypothetical situation (I was never there) that I wanted a cat to turtle because of frightening circumstances (Like approaching lightning with strokes nearby in the water, two times auto-uprighting immediately followed by flip to the other side, couldn't hold myself to the capsized cat, etc)

So, okay my proposal to swim dive in that situation was a bit the talk of a windsurfer who is used to lose his board/sail in high waves. But with my experience using the cat shroud, I would certainly use this to go to the masttop. But only if that seemed to be the best and absolute necessary solution for my emergency situation.

That would be (and should be) a hard decision.

It would - and it is. I forgot you have that open mesh trampoline. It's probably possible to flip the boat in a controlled manner so that the mast is downwind on the flip. That should make it go turtle. But! should you miss and the boat spin around due to the drag of the sails in the water, getting it turtled after that point may be impossible without righting and trying it again.

A well sealed mast will want to pop up and eventually get the boat on its side...but, I would also be concerned that I'm asking a lot of the sealant at the top of the mast that is plunged 32 feet below the surface for any extended period. I would be afraid that it would eventually leak and then I might have an impossible time trying to right the boat afterwards. I still think your best bet is to try and get the mainsail down and controlled when it's just crazy windy. It's definitely not easy, though.

I have been in my share of lightning storms out on the water.

scary chit for sure but dumping the main, flipping the boat and getting in the water with lightning all around does not seem like a good decision to me.

I would rather take my chances on the boat, avoid touching any metal, and hope that if my mast gets hit, i am not in a puddle of water that will conduct the charge through me.

several years ago we had the topic

if anyone has first hand knowledge of someone beinghit by lightning

many people had stories of cats on anchor, on land and in a marina getting hit but almost none of a boat underway (not saying it's not possible) but rare

Concerning the video Ronald posted of the gang o people failing to right that topcat?...
Surely that mast is full of water.
My experience with jib only on a TheMightyHobie18 is that the boat did sail to windward, all 3 times. None of them by choice.
The jib was a little smaller than stock however.(an old school T jib)

Options for each type boat, AND wind conditions !!

The Hobie-20 , was efficient enough to actually do a TACK,
if everything was done Perfect. The day we practiced
jib-only, the wind was blowing 28 to 35mph. We got a full tack about
once in every 4 tries ; that told us to rely on a JIBE if
we needed to reverse direction.
We never practiced jib only in light wind on the hobie-20, but
i imagine it would handle quite differently; just like a larger
rudder would make your cat handle differently.

Bille

can you sail upwind jib only?

I have sailed home from camping jib only down wind but i haven't seen anyone able to make any real ground upwind - jib only.

well 2 months later and i purchased a 6.0 that was rebuilt with a reefing main

last week i sailed it solo in 20-25 mph, reefed and it was a blast
handled very well, no excessive weatherhelm nor deadly leehelm

The how:
sail is lowered off the hook at the head of mast and the ring is is lowered about 4' (size of bottom sail panel).

There is a very large spin lock in the base of the mast track to lock the main halyard (that is now off the hook)

reef points in the luff (new downhaul), and across the sail and leach (new clew)

another slug in the masttrack at the bottom of new foot

the sail has 2 reef patches sewn into so line/bungee can be used to roll up extra sail - which lays on the side of boom

NICE ;
Really Glad Ya enjoyed that !!!!

Question for my Hobie 21se :

I wanna get rid of the hook and ring, at the head of
mast and delete the down-haul below the boom. I think
a roller boom on the foot of the Main, and winch for
the halyard , will be faster way to reduce sail size, with
way more options for size.

Will i need a larger pulley at the top of my mast; and how
big a winch,(along with what gearing) will i need to tighten
my new and stronger main-sail halyard ?

Bille

Bille, there are some structural considerations with going to a tensioned halyard setup too. Going to this setup will double the compression on the mast over the typical ring setup. I can't say whether or not this will be a problem but it will probably mean you at least need to do something to beef up the pulley setup at the top of the mast.

double the compression on the mast

Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.

+1 I know the mast cap which held the halyard on my N20 was somewhat flimsy and most likely wouldn't hold up to the kind of force needed to keep the cunningham tight..