Reefer Madness

Good point. I forgot...

Mike

HA Ha Ha !!!
The last Hobie race i witnessed at Lake Mohave ; maybe 50+
cats and it was blowing 30+ on the water ...

Almost Everyone sat on shore with there cats rigged , less
there sails, and on there beach-wheels.

YEP -- they all watched me & a buddy of mine, while we were on our kite boards.
Only person out with a cat, was a rather
talented Dude, with his Daughter on a Hobie-18 ; they were
having an Absolute BLAST !!!

After witnessing that ; I Never had any desire to go
racing with the Hobie crowd (.)

SO to answer your question :

did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail

?

That would be probably NO, because the field would be Too
scared to go sailing in a 30+ ; so they would Call the race!
HAHA !!!

====================================================

On our Hobie 20 , we made an extension for the halyard, at
the top of the reefed Main ; that way we could still use the
down-hull.The problem with that system was that it took
too long to reef the sail in the middle of the lake.

I think a rolling boom is a better way to go ; much Faster
way to reduce sail aria when Ya see the wind-lines marching
towards you ? In higher winds ; i kinda Want the sail to
have less camber anyway.

Getting rid of the jib is Fast ; just as fast as deploying
it, with a furling mechanism !

One other thing :
In High winds, the prudent skipper,will NOT be Maxing out his
boat, (it's the entire reason to get rid of sail aria) in
the first place ; so flipping your cat is actually Harder
with the lowered moment of Power, on your mast.

Bille

I was there, too. That would have been Rex Mitchell - and he admitted afterward it was one of the stupidest things he had ever done. Nearly broke his boat - and his daughter.

We weren't scared - neither the Hobie 18s nor the Hobie 17s that were there have any provision for reefing. We had just finished a day of five races in 20+ kts and we were beat. There were multiple collisions in the 18s and one crew had to be evacuated to Las Vegas for a concussion.

Personally, I needed to win four races in order to get from 2nd to 1st in the 17s that last day, and I really couldn't see myself (or my boat) making it through 4 races in 30+ kt winds (with gusts into the 40s). The race committee didn't think they would survive either, so they called it off.

This isn't a game of

who's got the biggest d**k

- it's supposed to be fun - and it's not fun over 25 kts steady. You can do your little superiority dance all you want, but I got my boat back in one piece from that event, and I couldn't care less what you were doing that day. I was having more fun on shore than I would have on the water, and that's what matters to me.

my furler is not easy to use in heavy air and more often than not does not furl the sail well ( creates a terrible hourglass shape that is flogging like crazy)

One persons fun is another persons nightmare.

Sailing above 25 kts steady is definitly fun and that has nothing to do with your Dxxx size! Mine is normal by the way.

Being a windsurfer of the first hour, I feel very at-home if the wind is really blowing and there are only a few guys left.
Adapting your sail to a very small and handy size and still feeling this enormous power in your sail, gives a thrilling sensation during sailing.

You see that same feeling reviving again in the kite scene. They go with 5 meter kites. That look like child kites, tiny and fragile.
And they all return from the water with a very big smile on their face!!!!!

PU used to run NAs with winds into the high 20s / low 30s. We were all younger and crazier then, and would go out as long as the RC was willing to run races.

Even on H16s, on Rehoboth Bay (Dewey Beach, DE) with its flat water, 1/3 of the fleet was ashore by the end of the first race. By the time the later races were running, only about 1/3 of the fleet was still racing. At one start, 1/3 of the boats on the water flipped at the start. Those ashore were there because they were either smart, tired, capsized and/or had broken boats. We had less wind, but big waves last year in Galveston, and lots of carnage.

When cats collide at

survival

speed on the water, bad things happen, and many times, the hulls aren't repairable. To say nothing of the people.

Again, I think there is some aspect of it that we're getting older, but we also don't get these conditions often enough to train for it. Either way, the result is that it's unsafe and not fun for most of the fleet in those conditions.

Mike

Quite a few years back, one day of Juana's saw very few boats sail. I mostly remember H17s sailing (maybe Kevin Smith, Brian Lambert and some others), but not many. Pretty much a straight shot off the beach through the starting line, down to Pensacola and back through the finish line and straight to the beach. No one left the beach until the start gun went off.

I'll start with the LAST part :

** This is a Thread about Reefing a catamaran ; so did it EVER
even cross your mind , that maybe, just Maybe, Ya would
have had FUN, if you had reefed the sails on your cat, to
match the power of the wind that day ????

I've bin out at Mohave on the Hobie-20, in winds in excess of
35 mph ; and i am NOT anywhere NEAR as good a sailor as You.

Given the chance to do it over ; i'd make the main-sail reefable
to the size of a Hobie 14, (instead of the 16 we could reduce to).

Also , I would go with a smaller jib.

A reefable sail is WAY safer to to be out on a lake with ;
when the lake is ((KNOWN)) to fluctuate in wind-speed from
15-mph to as much as 35-mph in the same afternoon.

The concussion you mentioned ; that Probably wouldn't have
happened if the sails weren't over-powered at the time of the
incident.
WERE THEY WEARING HELMETS AT THE TIME ?

Then FIX it , and it Will be Fun !

What can i say ; go in Big-Wind, with crappy equipment, (what do Ya expect) ?
Our furler worked just Fine !!

We Never flipped that Hobie-20 in big wind ; only mistake
we made was using an Old sail to sew reefing points in.
We blew that sail up ; had to return from 9-mile with
our jib.

Bille

Mine are Also normal size. These guys just don't get it ; that
using the correct equipment to do a job, (is Paramount) !!!

Wish you didn't live so far away, Mr northsea junkie . (sigh)

Bille

define

normal

Trident shape?

Ya got me ; i keep forgetting that i lost both legs in a hang gliding crash.

How about if i just say that it is Safer to have the ability
to reef your sails ; if a guy actually does need it from time
to time ?

Bille

I use new harken furlers (top and bottom) with the highload turlon bearings. - nothing to fix, not crap equipment

I sail solo 80% of the time so having the luxury of holding the tiller and trying to furl a jib on the fly in 30knots is not just a case of

fix it

I have sailed in over 40. not my idea of fun. Even over 20 is more than i prefer (but get caught in 25's several times a year).

I think knowing how to depower and get back to the beach safe is much more

fun

than being out in heavy air, getting a face full of water and increasing my risk of breaking a boat or person.

I have jumped on many other boats in high wind, but i find that less and less appealing as i get older.

Have you seen this video before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtWoxDXUmko
the title says they are sailing in 60 knts., but it looks about like a strong day at Dougs beach in the Gorge. I used a 3.5meter sail there once and it was about right.

Well, you can always heave-to!

A sailing manouevre which I didn't hear mentioning so far in this discussion. Very normal in heavy weather yachtsailing.

Try next time in 25+ kts after your first run outside, to jibe. Because at that time your are anyway full of adrenaline and all your muscles are tensioned and you are at the top of your nerves. So a jibe in heavy wind seems not too much to add to all your misery at that moment. Take your time when running the cat full ahead of the wind. Take care of the boom and try to slow down the travellercar. Turn into the wind.

And then...........do nothing. Leave the jib on the wrong side and let the main completely free open, let the tiller go. You will be amazed with the repose and the silentness of that situation. You are in heavy wind but everything is quiet; cat is moving slowly windwards. All is in control. Sails are not slapping. You can stand up, walk over your tramp, do a little dance, sew the jib if you want. And rest!

Then start thinking of how to spill a little more wind when sailing again. On your way back from the run; if you are really out of control, let the jib simply on the wrong side. By this little trick you can manage another 10 kts extra.

IF I wanted to sail in heavy air I would heave-to if/as needed, but since i prefer not to sail in heavy air.... and IF i sailed in heavy air, i wouldn't have a jib out

Try that in a Hobie 16 in anything over 20 kts and let me know how it works for you. Or a boat with a self-tacking jib (F18) that can't be weather sheeted.

Yeah, it works great for monohulls that don't have fully-battened sails. Catamarans, not so much.

I've sailed on H16's, but never done this particular heaving to. Nor with a self tacking jib (ofcourse).

Works fine for my cat and for that reason on any Prindle. Guess that same implies for Nacra's.

Curious though if it works for other members on their cats. I always thought this would work for anybody.

Northsea, Heaving to didn't quite work on my Nacra 5.2 out of the box. It would fall off, pick up speed, head up, tack and fall off, repeatedly.

I added a shock-cord with two plastic hooks along the back beam (tramp lacing actually). I use the hook to stabilize the rudders gently against the transoms. Gives me time to eat, drink and think (if applicable 😉
My impression is that the boat sort of slowly [moves] sideways doing this

crabbing

.

Dennis, heaving to is by nature a balanced situation for your cat. So yes, sometimes you have to play a little with the main and/or the rudders (and fix them) to arrive to that balance.

Perhaps I'm very lucky to have made a cat which is very balanced by itself.

By the way the fully battening of a catsail is in my opinion not an issue in heaving-to.

Glad to hear that. I always had trouble getting my 5.2 to heave to but I just thought it was me not getting things balanced. It worked well on my old Apollo 16 (monohull dingy).

OK -- then you need to get the pressure off your sails.

Bring her into Irons ; then toss the sea-anchor, and lift
your rudders so she doesn't turn while going backwards.

You will have a much easier time of it now.

For you being caught in a 25 ,

several times a year

as you
say, ; i would Drop the Main completely, and sail your joy
back to safe harbor , with just the jib.

Have you ever sailed with just your jib ? You should learn
how easy it is in sub-20 some day ; it's quite pleasant !!
You'll need a bit of energy ; or Ya get bored rather Easy .

The boat will be unbalanced, and need Lots of rudder ; but
since there are Way fewer blocks on the jib sheet, she reacts
a LOT faster when Ya go to depower,
(faster than sheeting out the Main) !!

I'm betting that you will NOT be in a great hurry to return
to shore ; once Ya find out just How easy it is to sail with
just your jib ? !!

I wouldn't sail Mohave , without a Good plan to deal with the
15 to 30-mph winds that are normal on that lake. We get a nice 15
to start ; then it's ON. It will fluctuate like that,as many
as 3 to 5 times a day.

Bille

BTW
This is all stuff i taught on 21 ft columbia sailboats , at
the Harry Lundeberg school of seamanship, in Piney point Md ,in the early 70's.

Or just don't go out in heavy air

So your suggesting when a storm pops up i try and drop and secure my main on my catamaran while on the fly? I don't think that is the answer for me. I can sail my cat in 25 - 30 without doing that.

Yes

Here in the Central Fl / Gulf of Mexico we get all ranges of weather. It's typical for the summer days to start out light, build all day and then have late afternoon thunderstorms (although this year has been atypical) - we have plans/options.

You seem to be trying very hard to convince me that sailing in heavy air is the most fun and I should be doing it. I am spoiled and get to sail year round, 3 days a week .... I have learned what i find fun and what i don't.... and sailing in heavy air / rough seas is not fun to me....

YMMV

I agree that heavy air sailing isn't in my definition of

fun

(Karl's comments regarding damage, fatigue, etc), and I am quite spoiled that I can pretty much pick any weekend to sail here so if the forecast is anything less than ideal I can forego the day's sailing plan.

BUT, heavy air sailing is something to be familiar with, as I I'm certain most folks have been caught out on the water when things didn't turn out as planned (too long sailing before weather moves in, pop-up storms, etc).

Having options (like reefing, jib-only sailing, etc) and knowing how/when to use them greatly increases a sailor's overall safety.

Perhaps that could be considered

enjoying

since I'd be somewhat competent in those

less than ideal

conditions, and can set the boat up to be comfortable/seakindly?

Racing is not usually

survival sailing

, but getting back to the beach can be.

Having a fast boat also allows you to sail around/outrun certain conditions (like pop-up storm) which can be seen as increasing safety, too.

Well, not having

fun

, feeling too spoiled for heavy weather, exaggerating the risks, raising the old age. I don't buy it guys.

It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

This is exactly the reason why I presented in this thread a learning scenario with a heavy weather jibe ending in a heave to condition.
Do it and you will feel more secure because you learned to do the impossible followed by the rewarding no-fear situation of the heave-to.

I clicked on this thread, because I'm a 'reefer'- it's not what you think.

It's this kind of reef- in my family room

Now, back to 'sail reefing'

Nice tank!

I've been out in nuclear stuff (30+ with huge ocean waves), and couldn't get my H16 to tack without wanting to go over backwards. So, I prefer to gybe in those conditions. We lie on the tramp with our heads all the way down, and steer through it as slowly as possible. I'm sometimes amazed that the rig is still vertical after that...

Mike

It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

Certainly. And having the boat fitted with

options

(reefing, storm sail, etc) is part of that security.

Still not sure on the

fun

part... Maybe telling the story of how you got through the nuclear conditions is

fun

.

It also could be that

heavy air

(over 30 kts) in this area is accompanied by things I don't consider particularly

fun

:
- hail
- cold temperatures
- mega-lightning. I think Florida kills more people with lightning than anywhere else?

That last one is key for me personally. When it starts to feel like you're at a Rave party because of all the flashing, and you're sitting next to a 10 meter aluminum stick in the middle of a large body of water, it's hard to feel the

fun

.

I think that if it were blowing a nice steady 35 knots in one direction we could all adapt and have a fun fast sail. It's the lulls and gusts along with changing direction that makes most heavy air sailing no fun around here.

That a good video: The sharper the blast, the quicker it'll pass.
I've seen boats destroyed tied down on the beach with bare poles in those conditions. There is no way I would have survived a micro-burst like that out on the water.

Sailing jib only on the i20 or f18 wasn't much fun for me.

I've done jib only on the Viper as well. Lost one of the diamond wires and dropped the main to save the mast. Doesn't go to weather very well.