Rule question

Small world. I had a similar situation with a P19 last weekend. Rules didn't come into question but it took forever. At first I tried going through his lee, big mistake, needn't have bothered. Imo, the only way is over the top.

As to the rules, who knows? My guess is it would be your word against his if it went to the room. I think he had the right to luff but only before the overlap.

Slight hijack I suppose, but P19 is a very nice boat. Why aren't there more of them?

I can see no ground for you to protest. If anything, he may have grounds to protest you if he feels you did not keep clear (which, if your boats were less then 1 inch apart as you say, then you most likely were not keeping clear).

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

You need to anticipate that he may try to luff you. And consider that since he isn't running a chute, his luff can be a lot quicker and higher than yours.

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

Passing to windward can be risky.

sm

This has happened to me more times than I can count, and is a classic example of where using rules are not to anyone’s advantage tactically. Leeward boat has the rights to come up but they have the limits on providing time for the windward to maneuver and eventually some on proper course, but you do not want to have that be your only defense in a protest IMO.

Boats that pull this kind of tactic on the course are a danger, especially sloop vs spin. If they really want to protect their line they need to come up early letting you know that they will be doing so and you need choose another way around. This way nobody runs off the wrong way and lets the 4 boats behind you all in front of both of you. If the boat behind is overtaking rapidly, they should have just kept their best line and let them buy as they would only be in dirty air for a very short time and give up a lot less time than trying to round somebody up violently at the last minute.

You as uni are significantly limited boat handling wise, so being forced to reach is scary in any wind. In passing, you either want to go real high early so you can get by as you eventually did, or go low early. With the spin and a hull speed advantage, ducking will lose you very little ground. We had to do this several times to the P19 last weekend and there were a ton of H16s always in the way. Go low far enough that as soon as you hit their exhaust you can round up and maintain apparent and you can pop through a slower boat pretty quick.

-He has overlap so he has luffing rights (R11).

-If he luffed too hard he would be in breach of R16.1 (when RoW boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear).

-If he started luffing just after the overlap had been established he also would have had to keep clear (R15).

-Had you capsized you could have maybe protested for R2 (fair sailing), but not easy to prove.

If you filed the protest I think R11+R16.1 would have the best chance of success (especially since he went from a downwind to an upwind course).

I highly recommend taking a look at the ISAF Case Book, it describes all sorts of situations and explains the reasoning behind it:
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012with2010changes-%5B8229%5D.pdf

I agree that tactically, this type of maneuver (sharp luff by the leeward boat) almost never makes sense for the reasons stated above. Unless you're in a situation where you have to stay ahead of that particular boat, you usually just end up both losing ground.

However, the leeward boat is not limited to sailing her proper course in this situation. The windward boat must keep clear and should anticipate that the leeward boat may try to defend her position by luffing. This is a basic windward overtaking leeward situation.

sm

SRM is correct on his explanation. As an windward overtaking boat, you have to assume that the leeward boat is going to defend his position by luffing you up - it is clearly within his rights as long as he gives you room and opportunity to avoid contact. It happens quite often in both mono and multi fleets.

Your best defense as an overtaking boat is to set up for the pass in advance and try to climb over the leeward boat with 2+ boatlengths of separation. This way the leeward boat will usually not act as aggressively as you overtake, and it will give you room to head down after you've broken the overlap.

That's what I thought, I don't think I have a case. as the RoW and leeward boat he is entitled to luff me as hard as he wants. He also gave me enough room to keep clear (barely enough room, but enough).

So, it's really a case of poor tactics? In my case I turned dead down wind to set the spin, there was light air and I probably could have completed the set much higher and not had to work so hard to get above the 19.

Matt I don't know how you broke through his lee. I couldn't do it.

Pepin,

No case for a protest; also; he only has to give you ROOM to keep clear; “Room and opportunity” was binned in the last iteration of the rules; it’s just ROOM to keep clear.

It could get interesting if he pushed you high enough to threaten a capsize; at that point I would call the following “If you want to take me higher; you will need to give me ROOM to take my Spi down”; if the helm of the other boat is at all switched on they will realise that the game is up.

Also, as stated; if you can get +2 boat lengths to windward; they cannot attack in the same way (cannot find the rules at the moment). Simple thing is to establish your passing lane and stay in it.

What rule says a leeward boat has to give a windward boat with the spin up room to take it down?

I guess you are entitled to ask from room to capsize without your mast hitting the leeward boat 😛

I don't see 16.1 giving a capsizing boat a pass there is nothing that says an overtaking boat must keep clear by a defined distance. IMO, if that situation goes to the room the windward boat would get tossed for failing to keep clear. It's not difficult to figure out that passing a sloop with a spin is filled with risk especially as the breeze comes up. If you choose to roll the dice (regardless of what you think of the tactics) it's on the windward boat and they have chosen their fate.

been there before too....I usually ask the leeward skipper to

please hold still, this will only hurt for a second

...with a smile (and knowing that I don't have right of way should they decide to fight me).

Dave, in the specific instance under discsussion I respectfully disagree (See - a Subordinate can be respectful to his President).

The Leeward boat luffed up in this case - changing course.

Now, if the spin boat was overtaking, cut it close, got a puff, flipped and their mast hit the leeward boat then that would be a different matter. Rules 11 and 15 apply in that situation.

In the case of a spin boat overtaking, the leeward non-spin boat acquired right of way because of the other boats action and is not required to give room - unless they alter course - e.g. luffing up
(I think)

Chris.

Yes, and that's why we have a protest room. Even then it can go either way depending on who is interpreting the rules. Which is also why you can file an appeal.

I still don't think a ROW boat is obligated to give room to a boat that is being sailed badly and I consider a capsize sailing badly. The windward boat knew going in that they could get luffed up.

So, are you saying that I can pass

any

leeward boat with my spin and as soon as they start taking me up I simply say... easy there buddy you come up any further and I'm going to capsize on top of you and you'll get tossed? Still don't see it coming out that way in the room.

The P19 can't luff at all.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack

Are you now saying you obtained overlap to leeward of the P19? Which would mean the P19 would be to windward and if they luffed up it would not have affected you because you were to leeward.

Pete that rule basically says if you obtain overlap to leeward you do not not have luffing rights and must maintain proper course, and based on your post and Pepin's post this is not what happened, so this rule does not apply.

You are also aware you fouled us LARGE at the start of race 1 on Saturday, right?

Read R17 again Pete. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Pepin: what was the course to the next mark?

That applies only to the overtaking boat - the F16 with spinnaker in this case. It means that you can't sail from behind and under someone and then take them up. It doesn't say that the ROW boat who is being overtaken from windward can't alter course to defend.

I'm with Dave on this one, you need to plan way ahead if you are the spinnaker boat and be prepared to drop the kite quickly if the leeward boat starts to engage his rights and you haven't been able to get enough height to negate his advantage. I agree that it's a risky and not terribly beneficial maneuver on part of the non-spin boat...but it's within his rights.

Care to elaborate there Ding?

Nope.

That may be the accepted interpretation, but that isn't what the rule says. The wording is vague and imprecise.

Nevertheless...

Actually Pete, the wording is anything but vague and is very precise and clear. Don't forget these rule wordings have evolved through several iterations and have been tried and tested time and again worldwide in front of very knowledgeable juries. If you look at the wording throughout the current RRS it is clear that a lot of thought has been put into the phraseology.

+1

We experience this commonly on the West River during Tuesday evening racing (A-Cats, single-handed F16s,and double handed N20s). Common practice is to avoid the situation. If it is close, it is not worth getting challenged into a precarious point of sail because the overtaking windward boat has very limited rights and can be

luffed

. Ironically, it does not have to be exclusive to sloop vs spin boats. The F16s sail higher than the N20s with the chute.

No I'm not aware of that. If I did I apologize.

If you were fouled, as a minimum you deserve an apology. If I did foul you I should have done a turn.

How about some

cyber justice

? If the jury, here assembled, finds against me I will bring rum to Gilligan's.

This is my interpretation:

Before the start your were on starboard tack approaching the start line. I was basically on a collision course, nose to nose but at some distance away in light air. I jibed in front of you, from port tack onto starboard tack. My boom swung across midline of the boat, putting me onto starboard tack and clear ahead, all the time coming up to weather. You came through my lee and made a good start.

Where is the foul?

To see my point have an English teacher diagram the verbiage.

With that, I am done with this particular argument. If this is the customary interpretation, I'll adapt.

Pete,
You refer to the rule where the leeward boat is overtaking to get the overlap and hence cannot luff. Pepin was windward as far as I can tell by his description and he can then get run up.

Right or not it is a crappy move tactically unless you are match racing just that boat. As the lead boat and you screw up by letting someone up on your hip it is too late to try and run them off. Once they start taking your air dive deep, gain some separation and they will be out of it very quick. Then try and match speed with them and you still have positional rights coming into the next move or mark.

Maybe Ding is referring to the fact you had no rights as you first fouled us barging down the start line. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

Let's begin with the rules I've seen quoted that don't apply:

• RRS 15
  

  ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY

  does not apply. Yellow was clear ahead at the beginning, became leeward boat when overlapped, clear ahead, and leeward again. Throughout all that maneuvering, Yellow had right of way. She did not acquire it along the way. Blue did not acquire right of way until she passed Yellow at the very end.

• RRS 17
  

  ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

  does not apply. Yellow did not become overlapped from astern (she was ahead). Blue did not become overlapped to leeward (she passed to windward). Neither boat was restricted from sailing above her proper course.

Now, onto the rules that do apply:

• RRS 11
  

  ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED

  at the times the boats were overlapped, Blue (windward) was obligated to keep clear of Yellow (leeward).

• RRS 12
  

  ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED

  at the times the boats were not overlapped, Blue(astern) was obligated to keep clear of Yellow (ahead).

• RRS 16.1
  

  CHANGING COURSE

  when Yellow changed course, she was obligated to give Blue room to keep clear.

• RRS 64.1(c)
  

  Penalties and Exoneration

  .

• Definition of Keep Clear.
• Definition of Room.

Now, the definition of

Keep Clear

reads (in part):

If the boats were only

inches

apart at times, then it is very likely that had Yellow (leeward) changed course any further, she would have immediately made contact with Blue (windward). If so, then Blue was not keeping clear and broke RRS 11.

The definition of

Room

is:

From the description, it sounds like Blue acted promptly in a seamanlike way throughout the encounter. I think Blue has a good argument that Yellow did not give her room to keep clear as required by RRS 16.1.

If the protest committee finds that Blue was compelled to break RRS 11 by the illegal action of Yellow (breaking RRS 16.1), then Blue would be exonerated under RRS 64.1(c), and Yellow penalized under RRS 64.1(a).

In all honesty, however, I think most protest committees would rule that Blue kept clear and therefore neither boat broke any rule. It is possible (depending on how the PC determines the facts) for this protest to go either way. I should say that this would be a difficult protest to win. The most likely outcome is no foul. The next most likely outcome is Blue is disqualified. Protest Committees will most often side with the right-of-way boat, unless the give-way boat can demonstrate that the other boat's action made it impossible for her to keep clear, despite her best and most seamanlike action. Blue has to make a very compelling argument in order to win.

Some instructive cases are:

Capsizing is not considered

seamanlike

. If a leeward non-spin boat rounds a windward spin-boat up so high that she capsizes, then the leeward boat breaks rule 16.1.

This means that Blue was not obligated to anticipate Yellow's actions, only to respond to them (contrary to previous posts).

I hope that helps,
Eric Rasmussen
US Sailing Certified Judge