Rules question

Tim,
Not only are you correct, but this is exactly the situation at every downwind gate rounding and even downwind finishes.

Ken

So most times in a fleet, the best approach to the leeward mark (whichever way around) is to plan to gybe around it and force those on the opposite gybe to go around the outside. Of course they only have to give "room" and the gybing boat does have to get on with getting around the mark without taking any extra space than necessary.

I'm just not convinced that in a mixed fleet round a starboard hand leeward mark (or gate) the boats on starboard would know they had to give room. The old "port gives way to starboard" is a very strong instinct to overcome! Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, I may have been the last to realise what this rule means , and I haven't heard any stories of major leeward mark incidents like this so there's nothing to worry about!

This rule only applies within the two boat circle around the mark. It applies at a downwind finish also. Doesn't create problems if both parties know the rules and take the necessary steps to avoid a drama

Probably 99% of the time the Port tack boat would gybe onto stbd anyway as soon as they reach the stbd layline (why would they continue on?) so the situation escalating would rarely happen. After all the inside boat needs to get on with rounding as fast as poss and that would usually mean getting the gybe over with before they reach the mark.

This has been around for years and was causing major issues a few years ago before more 1/2 boats started to Reach down wind on the run - the 1/2 boat sailors just did not realise they had to give room for the gybe or even that proper course was not always directly to the mark etc.

It can be a very strong tactic on 2 up boats where you can execute a "good" gybe drop and still sail around the mark in a seaman like manner. It's much more difficult single handed as IMO the single hander is likley to need to drop the kite before the gybe onto stbd as you must then head up around the mark - unless it's light wind and then it's all a little easier.

I would expect that the sequence of events must be
1, Call for water (when on port),
2, get it,
3, get to the (your) layline,
4, gybe instantly,
5, head for the mark,
6, round it tightly (you are not allowed to come in wide and out tight),
7, head up onto a beat.

The rules don't allow you a sloppy kite drop or a crappy gybe so if you don't get back to proper course ASAP you could be in trouble.

This is one of the main reasons Stbd hand courses are avoided in most racing but actily encouraged in team racing !

problem is solved by use of "gates".

Wouter

Hi Scooby -

Could you expand upon point number 6? I have seen several debates in the last couple of seasons about the boat with rights making the rounding, even when gates are in use. Skippers look back, shout "no room!" to the guy that has no overlap, and promptly steer way down to make a wide entry. I've seen, more than once, someone VERY close on the lead boat's transoms round tight instead of wide, jumping through the hole made by mister "no room" as he steers wide. Of course, much righteous shouting ensues and both parties think they're correct, even if there is no contact and no change of course to avoid.

OK, This is how I understand it. First bit; if you are clear ahead at the 2 boat lengths you can stear your course to make a seaman like rounding and go out wide and come in tight, afterall you are clear ahead, no overlap exists and so you have no proper course (per se) for the other boat to complain about (however in fact you do have a proper course (in your mind) as this is the quickest way to the next mark is out wide and in tight). End of story (well nearly, see however below.

Part 2, if someone clear astern at the two boat circle then comes inside they they are in the death zone and have no rights what-so-ever; well almost.. I don't believe that you could sail them into a steel marker bouy and cause them massive damage; you would have to give them room to "make their mistake" and then protest them; however if there was NO chance of damage occuring (i.e. if the mark is an inflatable) I would feel that you could just head up (giving them time to avoid you) and push them into the mark (and thus turn(s)).

THe crux of the second bit IMO is that you cannot allow them to crash and cause damage by their own stupidity; however you can push them onto a mark - One would hope that in the latter example they would choose to hit the inflatable mark instead of your boat. The defence of "well you left me room" is no defence.

However (there is always a however), assuming that they don't try and come inside you and duck your transoms (and so accelerate) they will probably come underneath you and are now allowed to assume (and expect) that you make a seaman like rounding and get onto a beat PDQ, you cannot sail below your course and they can push you up to close hauled.

Actually it's not. If you round the right (as you are approaching) gate, it's like a mark rounding to starboard. I've had people very upset at me when I come on port and they don't feel like they owe me room when I'm inside boat

That's exactly what has me worried.

There's a regatta we go to every year in NSW that has monos and cats on the same course with triangles and windward-returns, and because of the lie of the land and the winds there, starboard hand courses are not unusual. So it's easy to get the situation of cats coming into a leeward mark on port with monos doing their triangle coming in on starboard.

Scary stuff! I'm not sure I would be game enough to claim room.

I understand how this rule applies at a gate, but not at a downwind finsih. Rule 18.1 states "about to round or pass a mark on the same side". If a port boat comes into the finish line at the pin end, but your on starboard, the boats are not passing the mark on the same side.

In the preamble of rule 18, room is required if a tack or jybe is a normal part of manoeuvre. A jybe at the finish to me is not a normal manouvre.

What am I missing here?

Scott

The important word is "including" which is just before the part you quoted. The tack or gybe is not a requirement, it's just saying that if you are entitled to room, then that includes room to tack or gybe if you need it.

More often the other boat will gype away and go to the other gate bouy, also to get clean air after rounding.

gates spread the boats apart. Situation arises less often.

Wouter

Hi Scooby,

my understanding is, that if the boat hails for room at a mark or obstruction, regardless of entitlement you must give it to them, you can not push them the wrong side of the mark, even if it doesn't cause a collision.

Tim I forgot to mention this rule to you, I saw it in a "Australian Sailing" rules article regarding downwind finishes and was equaly shocked. It was just before the Sauna Sail an event which sometimes has these situations occur which is why I meant to mention it. I probably still have it some where, I am sure it discussed scenarios not just the rule.

Regards Gary.

The "death zone" - love it. Thanks for the post. This is a good thread.

In the circumstance I described, about half the time, the boat jumping through the hole gets through cleanly - i.e., the boat with rights did not have to alter course to avoid, meaning he took the mark too wide, imo, and leaving himself vulnerable and without a protest. That's when the most shouting seems to occur - one saying "hey, you can't do that," and the other replying "hey, you opened the door and I walked through."

I only ever saw someone trying to force room get driven up into the mark once - folks here generally hail "protest," get around the mark and forget about the guy trying to get clear for his turns. The one time I saw someone driven into the mark, the four-foot tetrahedron wound up between the hulls, behind the foil and firmly stuck. The poor crew was sent forward to jump up and down on the mark trying to shove it back under the foil as the rest of the fleet rounded what, at that point, constituted a not-inconsiderable obstruction on the course. There was a lot of shouting of a different nature as the parade went by.

Thanks again -

I recall it a bit differently, in that incident where someone was jumping up and down on a mark as the rest of the fleet rounded them and the mark, they being effectively one and the same.

Per the story I heard...
The boat clear ahead was heading for the leeward mark on a deep course but on a layline. The boat clear astern was sailing a much hotter angle also on a port tack layline, albeit a different one. As a consequence of the ongoing relationship between the two boats and the mark, the leeward mark was essentially masked from the view of the 2nd boats helmsman by the boat ahead. As overlap was acquired boat 2 hailed "room at the mark". Boat 1 bore off hard to give boat 2 room. Only then did boat 2 see just how close the mark was. Boat 2 bore off hard but it's fate was sealed. It was moving too fast. The mark was too close. To some additional hails of "oh $%#$%" and "*&^%" boat 2 took the 6 foot tetrahedron between the hulls at speed. Boat 2 having significantly slowed, boat 1 then completed it's rounding of both the mark and boat 2 and went on to complete the course, and perhaps even to win that particular race.

Anyway, that's what I heard.

According to a Dave Perry seminar I was at, there is a difference between a tactical rounding and a seamanlike rounding. A tactical rounding (prefered) is when a boat gets to round "nicely" and a seamanlike rounding is "just what you need" to round.

A Tactical rounding when you had rights before your rights at the 2 boat length circle. If you aquired your rights at 2 boat lengths you are allowed a seamanlike rounding only.

A tactical rounding allows you to go wide of the mark so you can come in tight for a nice rounding. The other boat just has to wait for you to do what you would like around that mark. In this situation there is NO "door that opens", ever.

Example of Tactical Rounding Rights at the gate: A starboard boat is going downwind and chooses to gybe within the 2 boat circle for a port rounding. A port boat that is going to round the same mark has to leave enough room to allow a tactical rounding of that starboard boat. Providing the starboard boat does not sail outside the 2 boat circle to make the rounding. Notice that the rights were always with the starboard boat from outside the 2 boat circle and continues while entering the 2 boat circle for "room at the mark".

Later,
Dan

So if you're in DPN low portsmouth class, is the "2 boatlength" circle radius that of the larger boat or the smaller boat? Let's say Boat 1 is an F-18 and boat 2 is a SC 22

The zone is determined by the length of the first boat. Picture an Opti and Playstation. <img src=

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Rick

Jamie -

I realize the situation may have looked like that from the cheap seats (seats up front where you have to crane your neck uncomfortably), but regardless, there was some sweet tetrahedron lovemaking going on that day...

Yes it is; however I would be trying much harder if damage might result. You would have a stronger case for proving the barging if you can say "he came in so late I could not give him room fast enough, this is the only reason (s)he hit the (nice soft inflatable) mark...."

Scott, At a downwind finish, when two boats on opposite gybes are shooting for the pin end of the line, the stb gybe gybe boat must give roonm for the port boat to gybe and round the mark.
(Tactical manoeuver used when the pin end is known to be favoured)

Good thread, thanks for the education.

Assuming the STBD boat is on the rhumb line. Surely at the time it looks like this might be a close one the STB boat heats up a little and then puts the Port boat about. Could be an interesting one if the Post boat manages to get above the stbd and then the stbd then drops down deep again.....

Risky stuff but might be important on a close series....

I was referring to when both boats are laying the favoured pin end of the line. If I was the port guy and the STB guy heated up, I would ask him to hold his course, while I cross behind him and blast through the finish line.
In reality, the STB guy has no better option than to shoot low under the gybing port boat and hope for the best

Agreed. That is what I would do.

Somebody clarify this for me...I didn't think a finish line pin was treated like a mark on the course or an obstruction.

Any object required to be left on a specified side is a mark (definition of a mark). So the finish line pin is definitely a mark. Rule 18 applies.

m