I've attended too many seminars (rules, RC, judging), and the more times I attend, the more I learn: (1) How to learn and (2) How to use the rule book (not as a weapon, but a tool). In my experience, the definitions should actually be in the front of the book, they are so important.
Taking everything else aside for a minute, the most disturbing thing about this thread remains the number of posts where people are unsure of the rules, and are not willing to look them up (I alluded to this in an earlier post). If you're not willing to do it now (and clearly don't know the rules), how do you manage this in a race?
I have a great idea on how to fix this. We should have a rules quiz at every regatta (open book), including common situations such as those listed here (there haven't been any
tricky
situations given here), and rank the sailors based on their quiz score, and count that as Race #1. In a perfect world, everyone would be tied with a bullet before touching the water.
Mike
Open book... I'm in.
I don't recall anybody claming nothing ever goes wrong. I'm just saying that you are responsible for your own boathandling, not everybody else.
And I'm saying that safety is everybody's responsibility, not just of boats going upwind. No matter what direction you are sailing, and no matter what sails you are using, you are expected to (1) watch where you are going, and (2) keep control of your boat.
Ok, let's take me out of the picture. Imagine the following scenerio:
In this example, a boat sailing downwind under spinnaker (D) has right-of-way over a boat sailing upwind (U). Both are
modern spin cats
sailing one-design (or formula) in the same class on a closed course with no non-spin boats present. The wind is blowing 20kts.
- Boat D has rounded the windward mark, set her chute, and is now sailing downwind on starboard tack
on the ragged edge of control
.
- Boat U is still sailing upwind, on port tack, below the layline.
- The two boats approach each other at 25kts+ closure rate. If both boats maintain the course they are sailing, D will pass 2 boatlengths to windward of U.
- D doesn't see U behind her spinnaker. U sees D and loudly hails
Hold your course!
when they are 15 boatlengths apart.
- When the boats are 4 boatlengths apart, a gust hits and D bears away hard.
- U immediately steers away, but one second later, the boats collide. Both boats are destroyed. One of the sailors on Boat U is impaled on D's spinnaker pole.
Now I ask you, which boat was unsafe? Boat U, who kept a lookout, and acted to avoid contact when she was the give-way boat, or Boat D, who did not watch for other boats, and could not maintain her course in a puff when she was the right-of-way boat?
protect
your escape lane, as if you can even do that when some upwind coming boat suddenly tacks into your escape lane...what's the plan now Olley? Douse the spin, get by him, then reset it??
I've never hit anyone either but I won't say I never will...
If another boat is in your escape lane, and you turn down onto him in a puff, how is he supposed to avoid you? You are the one moving fast, and the one changing course in the gusts. Even if you have right-of-way, you aren't giving him room to keep clear. If that's your approach to sailing, then I have to agree - a collision is inevitable.
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric hits some important points here (others have also mentioned this).
Putting the non-spin boats into this discussion is ultimately a red herring. True, some of those sailors may not appreciate the exit strategy for a spin boat, but that does not really matter. A spin boat going upwind is going to have the same difficulty getting out of the the way of a boat that isn't in control.
In the interest of safety, perhaps we should have some discussion at mixed-class regattas to let everyone be aware of the
limitations
of spin boats (can't hurt). Of course, you are still obliged not to change course without giving the other boat the ability to keep clear. Which means, you're opening yourself up to a larger window in which an upwind boat can say in a hearing,
Hey, spin dude never saw me, so I needed to give him extra room in case he got hit by a puff. I started avoiding well before he could hear my hail, DSQ him now please.
Mike
Good for you! You took action to avoid contact which was the right thing to do. Did you protest?
part you guys are sailing twenty year old technology. The rules need to keep pace with progress.
I'm sailing a 40 year old design but I don't see how that's germaine.
dead right
.
Absolutely. When boats meet, both must avoid contact if reasonably possible. There's already a rule for that, #14. When one or both of the boats fail to do so, how will changing other rules correct that? What is the purpose of reassigning right-of-way other than to be
dead right
?
Regards,
Eric
Just as a side note:
In Div11 Mr Geoff Becker has held/hosted several Racing Rules Seminar at Hobie Regattas, at no charge I may add, on Saturday night after the dinners ..... it is always standing room only w/ some
novice
sailor such as Wally Meyers, Rich McViegh, Randy Payne and many others w/ just a wee bit of racing experience attending ... and if Goeff's schedule allows it he will be hosting a RRS seminar at the Junior Olympics Regatta being held at RHYC in July!!!!
So quess were I'll be when Geoff hosts this seminar ... oh please note that I've already been to (3) RRS seminars + (2) Basic Race Management Seminar in the last two years alone .... and I always still learn something everytime!!!!
Mr Mike/Brucat .... you are quite correct ....
Harry
Absolutely. I learn new things about the rules all the time.
I agree with you there too.
tricky
situations given here)
I've participated in, and run a few
barstool regattas
like this. It's usually more fun in teams. Each team gets a toy boat. There are a series of rules qestions and each time a team gets one right, their boat advances. The team that makes it to the finish line first wins. Ties are good.
Regards,
Eric
I'm sailing a 40 year old design but I don't see how that's germaine.
The Germans aint got nothing to do with this.
with great power comes great responsibility
Spin boats have a greater demand on your abilities, so keep that in mind when operating it.
That photo looked ugly. Yes, the upwind boat has more options, and it's every sailor's duty to avoid a collision. They can do whatever they want and protest if they wish. Hitting the boat should not be an option to consider... No race that many of us sail in is worth that kind of damage/injury...
PGP you state you wont share a course with non spin boats. So let me ask you, do you intend on racing at GYC? You know we always share the course with A catters.
If you know the rules you will avoid a dangerous situation.
If you know the sailor you will avoid a dangerous situation.
My two cents:
1. Know your rules.
2. Know your competition.
Knowledge is your best weapon.
GYC is an exception. It's a small fleet, I know most of the sailors.
Pete
How is the windward/leward situation any different with two spinnaker boats converging on each other?
Awareness and visibility.
So a F18 coming downwind on an F16...
the F16 has less visibility than, lets say, a Hobie 16?
It makes no damn difference whatsoever! Windward/Leward crossings with even all spin boat courses - you're still going to have the same problem.
Okay. I started out by asking a question. I guess the answer is no.
Lol! Well put.
Nice!!!
too close for comfort
stories going around with reliable witnesses in support.
Anyone for changing the right of way rules? I have it on good authority it can be done in the SI.
At a regatta last weekend a Hobie Wildcat sunk a Dart 18.
One was going downwind with spin, the other going upwind.
One less slow boat to worry about I guess <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
Just skimmed this thread, my god it is scary how many of you don't know the rules. From not knowing you have to do your spin(s) as soon as possible (without avoiding other racers) to not knowing leeward vs windward, etc etc....
If you don't know if you are clear to gybe, don't! If you approach a windward mark, make sure you are aware of what is comming upwind (not hard to look around before you start your down turn). If you have a blind spot, make sure you figure out how to remove it!
End rant, this thread scares me, I'm with whomever said their should be a quiz before every regatta, almost 'proof you are good enough to sail'.
Scary stuff guys, you drive a car without knowing the rules of the road?
Scary stuff guys, you drive a car without knowing the rules of the road?
Of course! Why do you think there are over 40,000 trafic fatalities in the US every year?
Hey, at least -most of us- are not Texting while flying a spnnaker downwind running into upwind traffic!
Just to be clear, the Wildcat skipper in question is very experiened and this wasnt a rules knowledge problem.
Because they where at the front of the fleet they didnt expect another boat would still be going upwind at that point.
Wow. Not sure what else to say. Wow.
This really is less about rules, experience or anything other than common sense.
It could just as well been a powerboat that the Wildcat hit. They probably would have lost that battle (even with the right-of-way).
Say it with me now,
Must...keep...watch...
Mike