Should I get the Balance A?

Sarah,

I remember your posts from earlier, so I want to qualify my response. You seemed interested in spinnaker sailing, more so than in racing in a one design fleet. If this is not the case, then by all means, get the A Class that interests you the most. I think the Balance A is very pretty, and it seems to be an evolutionary design and will probably be as capable as most A Class.

If spinnaker sailing is a high priority, then I think the Marstrom M18 is the better choice. I think it has been sorted out for using the spinnaker, where I think you would need to figure out adding the spinnaker for the Balance A. The Marstrom M18 is a bit wider than the Marstrom A, but uses the same hulls. I also believe that the mast for the M18 is designed for the spinnaker loads, and I don't think that would be the case for the Balance. I investigated buying the M18 several years ago and the distributor told me that I could easily have both an A Class and the M18, just purchase the M18 and add the purchase of the A Class platform and rig. This is what makes me think that the M18 has a different rig than the Marstom A. The A Class maximum width is 7-1/2 feet, but I think the M18 is 8-1/2 feet wide. Having sailed the A Class, that extra width would be nice, but then again, there is nothing I have sailed that compares to the A Class. It is a whole different world than sailing the H16!

In summary, if you have other A Class boats to compete with, then get the A Class, either Balance, or many others to choose from. The Bimare XJ is manufactured near you also.

If you plan to add the spinnaker, I would start with the M18 and then when and if you want to compete in A Class, get the A platform and rig for the Martrom.

One last thing, never leave your A Class on the beach without it being tied down. It doesn't take much wind to blow it over.

Thanx for the advice sparky

Getting a spi really is a priority for me and racing in a one design fleet isnt an issue since sadly we dont have any races in my part of the world. As for the M18, I've been really interested in it for years now but I cant seem to contact Marstrom. I've sent them a lot of emails but I never got a reply. The M18 isnt on thier site either which I found quite strange but maybe its because they consider it an upgrade of thier A-cat instead of a whole new design. Does anyone have thier contact information? or maybe an email that they actually respond to? and what exaclty is the price of the M18 complete with the spi?

And for the love of god I hope they can change the color of the M18 because the guy who picks thier colors is obviously facing some issues.

Get an F16 and call it a day. Best of both worlds, awesome single hander and is designed and built for spinnaker sailing.

Click on my signature link. Also check the f16 section of the forums.

I also remember you from back in the day Are you still playing video games?

Hi Robi,

LOL ya I still play videogames and I dont plan on stopping anytime soon (Im addicted to the xbox 360)

Honestly the F16 doesnt appeal to me. Especially since Im not getting a cat for racing so the fact that the F16 is a growing class doesnt really help with my decision. And the A cats/M18 are really light so righting wont be such a hassle anymore.

I remember the past thread of posts as well. But I don't understand the righting issue much. F16's allow carbon masts. Stealth F16 has one already and Saarberg is developping one for the Blade right now. There should not be much difference at all between righting an A and an F16 (carbon mast).

Personally I seem to remember the Balance was designed for heavy skippers (85 to 100 kg), which you are undoubtably not. I would look to other A-cats with hull volumes and rigs that will suit your weight better.

Personally, I feel the M18 is a passed station; I think this to be the reason why Marstrom is not actively promoting this design anymore. Personally I don't advice the Mastrom A-cat either. Marstrom has not been keeping up with the latest trends. Get a wave piercer hull design, it is just better. Why pay more then you have too, for a product that is outdated ?

Spinnaker ? I and many others can't imagine living without it anymore. Personally I would strongly advice getting a spinnaker if your winds are typically less then 15 knots and more then 5 knots. In these conditions the flying of the spi is like engaging the afterburners on a jet fighter. Seriously addictive and a massive performance booster. When you put a spi on a production A-cat then you void your warranty completely. In addition the A's were not designed to take a spinnaker, in effect their balance will be off when you add one. It will never be as good as a design that has been designed to sail with the spinnaker from the bottom up. Why spend thousants more to have a less then optimal boat ?

If you are looking for A-cats : look at the BIM XJ's and AHPC Flyer's. Should do well with your weight and expected sailing conditions. Try contacting Pieter Saarberg in Netherlands. He will have a range of choices and can optimize the mast for your at the same time.

If you are looking to get into spi sailing in a serious manner, then look somewhere else (you know where). Contact Hans Klok (Pieter Saarbergs son) and have him put a Saarberg carbon mast on it.

The Saarbergs are covering both bases now. Smart move on their side.

Wouter

Zee,
You will have to take all this advice and remember where it comes from. You will do fine with any of the A-Cats. Adding a spinaker does not void the Marstrom A-Cat warranty. As a mater of fact you can order the complete spinnaker setup with your new Marstrom. By the way the "old" Marstrom did just fine against all of the other new boats at our Mid Winters. The Balance boat is also a fine boat, like the Marstrom it too is carbon prepeg cooked in an autoclave which yields the best construction possible. One point though, some of the A-Cats have the beams glued permanantly into the hulls which makes shipping much more difficult. Buying a light wieght A does indeed make it much easier to handle out of the water. We recently had 3 women attend our Mid Winters in Florida and they all did just fine! I know that a new Marstrom is now in Dubai so you might look up the owner.

Bob Webbon
Marstrom A-Cat
US 190

Sarah:

I don't know what 70kg is (lbs in US), but Pete Melvin only weights about 150 lbs. Have you ever considered the Nacra A2? I have a friend that is working on a homemade snail system for the boat and a spinnaker rigging setup. If you are interested send me a email and I will put you in touch with them. It is a sweet boat. Oh and if you want Marstrom you MUST call them. I found out they are BAD about answering emails. Ann-Marlene speaks English is you don't speak Swedish.

Doug Snell
dsnell4 at houston dot rr dot com
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

Sarah

Very funny comment

Bimare in Italy is very responsive and committed to customer service - unlike Marstrom. I've seen a number of their newest A cat designs up close and they are nice. I highly recommend them.
http://www.bimare.net/

The balance A does look nice and the build description seems to indicate that its made of the latest materials. The only downside is that its unproven and the company is new, so you might not get the level of service you want. But if they are near your summer place then you might want to go check it out in person.

As far as a spin, I agree that a spin is exciting. However so is an A cat. You might want to start with an A and add a spin later.
An A cat in over 8knots at your size will be a blast. Its much less to deal with in terms of complexity, rigging, etc.

Bill

Hi Sarah,
I'll keep it short I also probably said this the last time as well - I still say, for lightweight singlehanding with a spinnaker, you cannot beat a Shadow. www.swell-catamarans.co.uk and www.shadowsailing.org.uk
Have fun whatever you get

Try an A class catamaran. If you aren't in love with it after sailing it then don't buy it.
I have owned and sailed a bunch of spinnaker equiped cats. After trying an A class cat, I have no desire to own or sail one anymore.

All that having been said, I enjoyed sailing the Tiapan 4.9 with a spinnaker when I had the chance. It sailed almost as nice as an A cat.

Eric Anderson A class US 28, DN Iceyacht 5193

Seems that there are alot of people here that like to sail with a spinnaker single handed. I do not. I have a Fomula 18 and have single handed with a spinnaker. It is a lot of work. While sailing with a crew I am on the main traveller and crew on the spinnaker and trapezed out. That is the way to get a lot out of the setup.

If you were really keen on sailing the spinnaker and that is the only criteria then I would say a carbon mast on any of the latest F16s or the M18 is a cool choice.

If you are looking for a reason to get an A Cat, the best is the simplicity. I am at the Yacht Club that Pease and Jay Glaser and Pete Melvin sail out of. Pease has a Water Rat with a cut down rig to match her weight, Jay sails a Flyer, and Pete is on his new A2. I have sailed a couple of them. They all have about the same general characteristics and they all sail really nice. It is really easy to have fun just going out for a sail. The Marstrom A Cat seems to be designed for a bit larger person. I think that Pete's A2s are still coming in a bit under minimum class weight of 165 lbs so they would be really easy to pull around after sailing as well. Make sure you tie them to the beach in any wind at all. Any A Cat is that light.

Later,
Dan

ty for the replys

ok so heres the current standing ...
After reading the posts it seems that the Balance A isnt really the right choice for me (though I havent given up on it yet)

As for getting a shadow .. It says on the site that its about 100kg (lol I dont think I want to try righting that cat anytime soon).

The nacra A2 does seem very interesting. But isnt it hard to solo? and the hulls arent really what I'm used to. How do they perform? And the site doesnt mention anything about spis so Im not sure if it can handle the spi and if its performance would match up to the Marstrom A-cat which btw is the only model I've seen that comes with the spi as a feature from the factory.

The Flyer A-class from AHPC does seem interesting but like the other options, it doesnt state anything regarding spis.

70 kg = 154 lbs

Wouter

Hello Zee,

Don't think twice about bothering to put a spinnaker on an A-cat. Enjoy it like it comes, with one sail. You could be very happy with everything just that way, and fly like the wind! It's just the crazy adreniline-junky guys who have to push it (The Envelope) too far.
3 women and 36 men camre to sail A-cats at Islamorada in the Florida Keys in January: the women did NOT come even close to last, but did very well. Also, one of the local men that attended his first big regatta is small and 56 kilos, and he uses a righting stick (power pole) to right his Bim 2000 (75 kilos). He doesn't capsize much anymore.

Sarah,

I believe the A-class is your best choice if you want the best performance with minimum setup and hassle. It is so easy to go sailing. If you must have a chute, go with the Marstrom. The fuller bows up front will work better than than the wave piercer designs. I own an A2, it's a wonderful boat, no harder to sail than any other A-class. I've owned an Auscat Mk. IV and Mk. V, also great boats. The differences in the design platforms are subtle. The Marstrom is still very competitive. The winners in the A-class are those who put the time on the water, no secrets there.

Good Luck,

Bob Hodges
USA 230

I'm fearing that some of my comments can be misintepreted.

So allow me to further clearify some points.

I'm not saying Marstrom products are bad in any way. Because they are not. The point I wanted to get across is that I don't see the "gain" in spending a significant additional amount of money (relative to other A-cat designs) for a design that is pretty "average" in performance relative to other modern A-cats. Comments along the lines of "marstrom was just fine in event such and such" only underline this. For 5000 Euro's more I expect a comparable amount of "better" or "faster". If this is not present then why not buy any of the other A-cats and keep the cash ?

It also appears that the other brands have better customer service as well. For what did we pay 5000 Euro's extra again ?

Clearifying M18 = passed station. This is not related to the design of the M18 but more with its position in the larger catamaran scene. After all, this is a very rare and unpromoted boat, with a lot of Marstrom specific components, from a company with the above mentioned customer support reputation. How can I put this in a nice way ? Why put yourself through the trouble ?

In addition to this the M18 is a bit undetermined; it is neither an A-cat nor a F16. It is somewhere in between without having the strong points of either class. This doesn't help its position in todays catamaran scene at all. My personal prediction is that it will slowly fall back to the background and disappear over the next couple of years. Why should it be valued at 5000 Euro's and 9000 Euro's more than the A's and F16's ?

I also wrote that the boats were outdated. I should specify that. I meant to say that they have not kept of with new developments. The snail is hard on the spinnaker (wear) and there hasn't been much development in sails and hulls over the last few years. Both the A-cat class (other builders) and F16 class have seen much more development in the way of spi snuffers, mainsail designs and hull shapes. That is only naming 3 points. The Marstrom products are still fast, well build and well behaved but they are still not level with the newer designs that have come out. In this light I ask again, why spend a large amount more on a new boat and then again spend time and money doing the required development yourself ? Do yourself a favour buy a cheaper but more modern design and spend the remaining budget on things that do help performance. I'm sorry to Marstrom but that is the state of things, nothing personal.

With respect to say A-cats versus F16's (but I consider the Shadow and other to run parallel to this).

If anyone is not interested in spinnaker sailing (or taking a crew along) then your best option under "money-is-not-a-problem" are the A-cat boats. No doubt about that. Plain and simple.

If someone is into spinnaker sailing or even taking crews along more then seldomly then don't mess around with spi packages on A-cats. Get a F16 or comparable boat that was designed to be sailed with a spi. There is more difference in design between both boats then can be corrected by an after market package. The whole design is affected by the choice of having a spi or not. Down to the distribution of hull volume. Yes, 5 years ago putting a spi to an new A-cat was pretty reasonable but now with the new developments in F16 (and similar classes) this is just a waste of money.

So when deciding to buy a new boat, base the decision on whether you want a spinnaker or not and don't try to predominantly use either boat in a role different then to what it was designed for.

This means that you should not buy an F16 to sail exclusively solo with only a mainsail, that is pointless. Neither should anyone buy an A-cat only to smack a spi package on it (or double hand it). Both boats will be okay in these switched roles but they will not be exceptionally well in it. I hope this satisfies the fans of both camps.

With respect to spinnaker sailing and crews who are not interested in it.

If only I had a dollar for each "disinterested crew" that turned into an "adrenaline craving spinnaker junky" after a single demo sail in 8 - 14 knots of wind.

I'm not joking here, the score in converts is extremely high. So I'm saying to each and any crew, take this into account. Chances are that there will come a time where you want it, badly.

I hope this clearifies a few of my earlier statements

Sorry for any inconvenience

Wouter

Sarah:

I kind of agree with Wouter. You have to decide if a spinnaker is important or just a fast fun ride. If you get a A I would go with the A@ as Pete is 150 lbs and flies. If you want a spinnaker boat I would get a Blade. You can sail it as a spinnaker boat with either main and spinnaker are all three sails on take a crew. You can also sail it as a uni and it is a new design boat that you can get Kevlar hulls and carbon options on.

Just take a look at it.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

Actually no A-cat builder will mention spinnaker packages in their leaflets or on their webpages. All of these will void warranty if you after-market a spi to their boats. Only Marstrom mentions a spi package because their M18 is a modified version of their A-cat. However the M18 is NOT an A-cat in the strict sense.

Let me explain.

The M18 uses the same shaped hulls as the Marstrom A-cat and it even may use the same rudder setup and daggerboards. But then the two boat start to diverge in design. M18 has wider beams, a modified mast, a larger mainsail then the A's, modified trampoline and modified other stuff like sheeting systems.

I'm not sure whether the hulls of the M18 are exactly the same as the Marstrom A-cat in every sense. Laminate, reinforcements etc. But in Marstroms case, they overdimensionize everything, they can well be.

It will right itself up under your shy 70 kg. No worries.

We must be careful not to see the A-cats as the only catamarans that can be righted easily singlehandedly.

Not too long ago (15 years) the A-cats themselfs were a good 90 kg with a very similar mast section as the shadow is using right now. Back then these A-cats were promoted as a dream to right as well.

I think you will find that it is rather the Marstrom A-cat that should be questioned whether it can match the performance of the Nacra A2 A-cat.

The M18 however will beat the Nacra A2; the spinnaker is just to much of a performance booster.

Wouter

A quick search on this forum provides the answer :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho... page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

I quote :

... then an M18 would be my next boat, however the price is looking at coming in at around 23500 Euro plus sails (last time I spoke to Goran Marstrom). Which is a lot of money, too much for me.

end of quote

If "plus sails" means that you still have to buy these yourself then you must add 1500 Euro's for the mainsail and 750 Euro's for the spi, making a total of (hold on to your chairs everybody) 25.750 Euro's

As comparison :

Typical Bim XJ and AHPC Flyer A-cats are 18.500 Euro's
F16's (with a carbon mast) : 12.000 to 15.500 Euro's

A reasonably well equipped Hobie 16 "Le race" = about 13.000 Euro's

(all prices in this post are including European VAT (GST) taxes = about 18%)

Wouter

Zee,
I can't help but notice that you learned to sail a cat on an H-16. I am learning now and trying to decide on a boat. I am looking for a Mystere 4.3 but there are not many around. It has a spi. I am not ready for that yet but am pretty happy to have it there when I am. But... I was offered a good deal on an H16. I weigh 58kg. Do you think a girl my weight and in good shape could right one? How did you get it in and out of the water. Did you always have help? I would also be solo most of the time and was concerned that it would be too much to wrestle with.

Wendy:

Get the 4.3. There are three here: in the catmarans for sale section www.thebeachcats.com I bought one. You will have to register to see them. There is one in NC for $2500 and one in Fla for $3200. A LOT new design than the 16 and you can learn spinnaker which every beachcat is going to and a LOT of fun. Ashleigh and I went out on a 18 SX two weeks ago and it was a blast. TRUST me you will tire of the 16 fast. I started on one. Good boat back in 79 but outdated now.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Msytere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

Nice choice Doug, that M4.3. Saw it as springfever regatta a while back (Johns boat) looked like a really nice package.

That 2500 USD M4.3 has your name on it Sunny. Mighty attractive in your situation I think.

Wouter

I looked there and missed the one in NC. Thanks Doug! I just sent them an e-mail

I think you are right Wouter.

Hey, what's a Wouter? Is that a nickname or what?

Sunny,

Its the inverse of "Plunger"

as used in context-

"I'd use the bathroom but there seems to be a large wouter in the basin!"

"The drain was all stopped up until someone came and pulled the wouter out"

Wendy:

I am paying $3000 for a 2002. $2500 for a 2003 is a great deal, JUMP om it. I think they said they made a lot of improvements after the Nationals where my boat came from. Join this:
http://mystereowners.org/mystere/
There is a lot of info here and a yahoo user group you can join. The link is on the right side so the screen. They have been real friendly and informative to me. Go to our site sometime. www.tcdyc.com

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

MauganH17:
That is probably not called for. I did not know that you would stoop to that. There is no Wouter in my dictionary so I am assuming it is his name. There are plenty of Wouters in history. Hope I am right and MauganH17 is not.

Good grief,
I just wondered if it was a nickname. Sunny is a nickname that I got tagged with growing up because I was always happy. I wondered if Wouter meant something too.

wow, a lot of people seem to have broken their funny bones as children.

My nickname is pingpongball-on-a-toothpick.

Yeah, well...that and Peck--------- oh nevermind.