Should I get the Balance A?

Sunny,

Ok I would definetly go with the suggestions mentioned above because you WILL tire of the H16 very quickly. The only reason I got it was because I was told that if you can sail a H16 then you can sail anything and other cats will seem like a dream.

Honeslty, no. My weight is 70kg and I have trouble righting the H16. Im in good shape (I have a trainer that keeps me fit .. she comes 5-6 days a week 2 hrs each day). Yet I still find righting the H16 to be such a hassle. I have to climb back on the hull using some ropes then lean back to right it.

Thats not really an issue with me because I live by the ocean and I have something similar to a garage that I keep my cat in. Its only a few meters to the water.

I solo on the H16 all the time so thats not really something you should be worried about.

I hope that helped

Wendy:

Order this:

http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jropdpmoo

For righting problems. Putting one on the 4.3. Just for safety, NEVER sail alone. ALWAYS have another boat around.

Make some of these. A lot cheaper that buying CatTrax unless they come with the boat you buy. Easy to move boat around.

http://dgaleana2.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=tips&action=display&thread=1143785090

This will solve the two problems you are worried about.

Did you get any response from the guy in NC ? $2500 is a steal!!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

I shall check with my parents but I don't think they were giddy when they named me.

Wouter

It is a pretty old Dutch name, yes.

And before anybody asks about me last name. No, it is not derived from Hi-jinx or what ever. It orginated in midevil times with free farmers in the eastern part of the Netherlands. I can't garantee however that Hi-jinx is not derived from Hijink, however. The free farmers certainly would have pissed of a few people back then, being rich in their fortified homesteads, owning their own lands with no adherence to nobility or other bossy folk.

Wouter

Yes, we have a few those sailors at our club as well. Got tired of this nonsense and slapped one of them on an F18. The only thing he had to do was drive, we gave him an experienced F18 crew to pull "all those strings and stuff" so he couldn't blame his crew. Then we watched him burn. Capsized the boat right on the bottom mark as well. Boats swirled around him left and right.

Back at the club house over a beer he "sort off" admitted that "just maybe" the above statement "is not entirely" accurate "anymore" in todays catamaran scene.

Wouter

I hope I dont flop as badly as that guy did when I get my new cat

New modern boats aren't difficult, they are just different and H16 sailing doesn't give you much of a head start in learning to sail these modern boats. Don't get overconfident. Start in stable conditions with medium windstrength and build your skill up from there. Read up on how to handle these modern boats parallel to on the water learning. It is not difficult to learn how to handle the mainsheet, downhaul and other trim tools on these boats but you will have to know how to do it in gusty or strong conditions.

Just as a example to explain what I mean : a F16 has slightly less sailarea (main + jib) then a Hobie 16; but it goes 20 % faster meaning that this smaller rig is able to produce about 40 % more power. With the wrong trim it can even be more powerful still, this needs to be held under control. With a few simple trim procedures this is not a problem, the boat will calm down completely but you will have to know how to do it. Of course that H16 sailor in my example didn't know and got burned. On the various forums you can get alot of advice regarding these trim procedures.

A-cats, M18, F18's and others are no different. A-cats, M18's, F16 and Capricorn F18 are actually very similar in handling and trim. You can use trim advice for any of these on the other 3. Trim tips for the H16 are useless on these modern boats.

Just go for it, you learn to handle the modern boats quickly enough if you start out in the right direction from the get-go. And the extra learning/challenge is just what you are after isn't it. You won't get bored onn these boats soon.

Wouter

Hobie 16 Police Here:
Wouter has opinions, that's good. They can be interesting.
Some facts from memory are that 8 of the top ten at the recent alter cup all came from sailing a non-spin Hobie 16,18,or 20.
Edit: (Forgot Bob C on the 14 and 17)
Last years F-18 championships top 3 again came from non-spin Hobie boats. Second and third were both Hobie 16 sailors.
The current Tiger world champion came from the H14 and H16.
He won both those National championships also.
The bottom line is that good sailors/racers can learn on about any boat.
They also have a feel that can never be taught.
Think Carlton Tucker or Enrique
Technology doesn't change the need to understand sail shape and what makes the boat go.
Racing is how we can judge boat to boat.
To be a good racer, you need to know how to start. wich way to go, how to cover boats, how to round marks, etc. etc.
All this can be learned on any one design or Formula boat with spi or not.
It does take time to learn the spi boats, but my observation is the good guys and gals pick it up quick and are back in the top of the pack.

My opinions.

Here's what I learned in going from Hobie-14 to Hobie-18 to Hobie-20 to NACRA 6.0:

Similar things happen with variations that are due to the differences in designs. For example - on the Hobie-14 if you headed up in a puff to depower going upwind you could flip the boat over backward because the sterns had little bouyancy - you had to play the sheet. On the 18 and above heading up in a puff becomes an option (not to start arguments over which is the best way). You learn the diferences through looking at the design and time on the boat.

The main thing was this - things happen faster. You have an expectation of events happening at a certain speed in your current boat, and when you get on a faster boat it can get ahead of you because you are not expecting things to happen as quickly. The first time out on the 20 moving up from the 18 my crew and I had the boat get ahead of us a few times until we got used to things happening faster. It didn't take long to aclimate, but it could freak out the timid. I actually ended up in irons a few times tacking because the boat responded so much faster to helm inputs - I used the usually truck-driving approach that worked on the 18 and found the boat tacking too quickly, then backed off the helm because I thought I was tacking too fast which then left me in irons. I had to laugh at that one...

Spin sailing adds a whole other level to cat sailing that is just plain addictive IMO. Take your time, figure things out, enjoy the ride!

Start out in moderate conditions and get used to the new sensory inputs - you'll love it.

Zee:

Lost the thread on the tallest building, but I can't imagine 700,000 people trying to come and go on two bridges. Gridlock nightmare.

Doug

-1- Robbie Daniel/Hunter Stunzi Olympic (Tornado)
-2- Alex Shafer/Nigel Pitt Nacra F18
-3- Greg Thomas/Jacques Bernier Defend (Hobie Tiger = F18)
-4- John Casey/Kenny Pierce Nacra I-20
-5- John Tomko/Ian Billings area F (Hobie Tiger = F18)
-6- Robert Curry/Bret Moss D-S (Curry = Nacra F17, Moss = A-cat)
-7- Olli Jason/Kelly Jason Pet'n (Don't know what they sail normally)
-8- Jeff Newsome/Peter Ney J 5 (Hobie 16)
-9- Susan Korzeniewski/Kevin Smith NAF18 (Hobie Tiger = F18)
-10- Kirk Newkirk/Glenn Holmes Pet'n (I thought they sailed a F18 as well)

Sources : http://www.ussailing.org/championships/adult/usmhc/alter06/results06.htm
http://www.ussailing.org/championships/adult/usmhc/alter06/elims0506.htm

Lets see, I count :

1 Tornado, 5 F18's, 1 Nacra I-20, 1 Nacra F17, 1 A-cat, 1 Hobie 16

Only 2 of these are boats without a spinnaker, one of them being an A-cat. So only ONE falls under your criterium of "a non-spin Hobie 16,18,or 20"

I dare say that alter cup 2005 was no different.

I guess your memory ain't what it used to be.

Or you are trying to claim that these crews did so well NOT because they currently race comparable modern boats themselfs (and have now done so for several years) but because they used to sail hobie 16, 18 and 20's waaaaaaaay back in the days ....

Either way your claim is just silly.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not putting the H16 down; just some of the silly claims that are made with respect to these boats. Currently an F18 sailor can sail an H16 and not get into any sort of trouble. A H16 crew newly on a F18 can get themselfs in alot of trouble pretty quickly. As in slacking the mainsheet under spinnaker in a gust = mast breakage. As in not making proper S-curving under spinnaker thus making the boat go up and down all the time till a capsize ends this circus. And I can name several more. Therefor the statement :"If you can sail an H16 then you can sail anything" is just bogus. Maybe it was true 20 years ago (I doubt it) but it is certainly not true anymore.

Wouter

Ohh I nearly forgot. I have an invitation for you to sail on an F18, you only have to drive it as we'll supply you with an experienced crew. Piece of cake, since you come of an H16. I'll buy you a beer afterwards and then we talk about it some more.

Zee:

Get a Blade. Best of both worlds. Uni and a spin in one.

Doug

Wouter: My memory is pretty good. All the people on the list have about a 20 year average racing experience.
The 8 I am refering to cut their teeth for 3/4 of that time on the non-spin boats I mentioned.
I'm just saying you can learn to sail well on non-spin boats and then jump to one and get up to speed quickly.
I would also say that sailing any boat by yourself will get boring. Racing in a big fleet is a rush.
If you happen to find yourself at A mark in the top 5 in a 60 boat fleet and look back it sure gets your heart pumping.
It doesn't happen to me a lot so maybe that's why it's still a rush.
It never gets old.

Maybe sometime I will jump on a F-18 and come play with the big kids.
The results will speak for themselves, good or bad
I can find my own crew. Any lurkers out there want to volunteer?

Right now, I race with my 10 year old daughter and have never had a better time.

I'm stuck in a hotel with nothing better to do. (but work)
-1- Robbie Daniel/Hunter Stunzi Olympic (Tornado)
-2- Alex Shafer/Nigel Pitt Nacra F18 (Nigel- Hobie 20 National Champ)
-3- Greg Thomas/Jacques Bernier Defend (Hobie Tiger = F18) (Hobie 20 National Champ)
-4- John Casey/Kenny Pierce Nacra I-20
-5- John Tomko/Ian Billings area F (Hobie Tiger = F18) (Hobie 20 National Champ)
-6- Robert Curry/Bret Moss D-S (Curry = Nacra F17, Moss = A-cat) (H14 World Champ, H17 National Champ)
-7- Olli Jason/Kelly Jason Pet'n (Don't know what they sail normally) (Was sailing H16 until recent years)
-8- Jeff Newsome/Peter Ney J 5 (Hobie 16)
-9- Susan Korzeniewski/Kevin Smith NAF18 (Hobie Tiger = F18) (Hobie 16 Womens National Champ, 4th H16 open,2nd H16 Womens Worlds )
-10- Kirk Newkirk/Glenn Holmes Pet'n (I thought they sailed a F18 as well) (Hobie 20 National Champ)
-19-Mike Siau (Hobie 16 Youth National Champ) Way to go Mike

These people didn't fall out of bed a couple of years ago and decide they would be great F-18 sailors.(I20 in this case)
It takes time and years of competive racing to get there.

Why do you think Rick and Mary are having success with the Wave? It's easy, One design racing and great teachers.
We all have differant sailing backgrounds.
I think that any new sailor could learn more about racing in one week of sailing Waves with Rick than years of open class.(IMHO)

Volley

Now that's unbeatable !

You provide some sound points in your post this time. Hell I started out myself on an old Prindle 16 as that was all I could affort at the time. Loved that boat to bit; almost literally. I had to sell it to finish my new boat and because it was absolutely spend race wise. It was still in one piece so I could still get some money out of it. I learned all the things you mentioned on it. And in this sense I believe that any cat is a good starter boat.

As said earlier I'm disagreeing with some of the more extravagent claims not with stuff as written above. In my personal experience I can say that getting on to a modern boat felt like learning to sail all over again. Yes I know about tactics and starts, but in the way of handling the boat I had to do alot of relearning. Great fun though but on this basis I wrote what I wrote in my other posts.

Well, I think that their time on the water with the new boats and competitive minded spirits would have places them were they are now even if they didn't have years of experience in the non-spi boat fleet. Afterall during the past decade the courses changed from triangles to windward-leeward as well. This did introduce alot more dynamics in the racing. Many things changes, sail trim became very important, much much more then on H16's and P16's. Prebend, spreader rake, etc ; everything became readily adjustable.

I think it to be foolish to think that the old boats experience like H16, TheMightyHobie18 P16 etc make up a large portion of todays succes on the modern boats. I know that my prior experience didn't help me much beyond a good start and recognizing the need to train hard on your manouvres. But then again I never did much covering because that is pretty difficult if you have one of the slowest baots in the open class fleet (H16/P16).

In addition I think that starting right away on a modern boat is a bit of a steep learning curve in the beginning but still to be preferred (faster) then starting out first on an old design liek the H16/P16 and switch to modern later. I truly believe you'll loose more time then you can win back later.

The boats are different.

Best of luck, See ya !

Wouter

Go, Pat go!

I've got my

Hey Matt:
You've been quiet lately.
Can I borrow your Tiger, I need to learn to sail one of those things. You'll crew, right?
It will only be a little scary.

Robbie Daniel raced a H16 and, I think, a H14.

Actually, I asked your wife which she would rather ride at MC30 - the 16 or the Tiger. She chose the 16. Now I have to lose weight to be competitive with the skinny f**kers like Billy Jeffers.

The two of you would make a great team on the Tiger.

You have a lot of other choices of Tigers (and Tiger crews)to try out without me dragging my boat 450 miles for you to play with. You wanna buy another boat from me?

Oh, and the reason I've been quiet lately?

This just got uploaded to the printer yesterday:

I am sooo glad when an issue is finally done.

Matt you are the defending MC 16 Champion. You have to defend.
The backyard is pretty full already,but you never know. I would love to get in the F-18 mix.
If Sarah gets up to speed on the 14 she may want to drive herself.
Can you sail a 14 upside down?

Nice cover pic.

Pat:
I can image that sailing with your daughter is really cool, but I have sailed with your wife, Diane, and she is pretty great crew too. I would have to challenge, that you probably had a great time when you were sailing with her as well. I love to sail with Eileen! We work better with fewer words each time we sail. We talk more about the overall situation that the fine tuning of the boat...very helpful.

Later,
Dan

Hey Dan: Of course Diane is an excellant crew. Sailing with Sarah is just differant. The observations that come out of a 10 year olds mouth are priceless.
Sailing in Ventura last year she would just start giggling when the seals would start popping up at the start line or she would let out a yell when she saw a dolphin near by.
It gives you a whole new view.
This is a big weekend for both Sarah and Diane.
They are both getting their Blackbelts after years of hard work. Very cool for Mother and daughter to get them at the same time.

Pat:

Tell them both congratulations and give them a big hug from me! That is Great!

Dan

Pat:

No one is saying the 16 wasn't/isn't a good boat. When I start THERE were NO spinnaker cat boats in 79. I went to a fleet in a year and a half. What I and others are saying is MOST 2-up cats are going to spinnakers. I thinks Zee should get the latest technology, whichever boat she gets, that is all. That is why I bought the 4.3 to train Ashleigh and me.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

It seems ANY post with the "what boat should I get" theme brings out all the boat-bashing frenzies we`ve seen on the forum.
Of course the A-class sailors think you should get an A, F16 guys think F16 is the way to go etc.
The reality is whatever boat you choose,as long as it matches the criteria you have chosen, will be the right choice for you. As there seems to be no fleet racing in any class where you sail, you don`t need to consider that in your buying criteria. From what I gather you have predominately light wind, so any of the boats discussed would be a good choice - if your venue was windy (like mine) I would recommend an entirely different boat.
If what you say is true about Marstrom not being responsive to you practically begging them to LET YOU GIVE THEM MONEY, I would not buy their product even if it were way better than the rest, simply because you may miss a season or two not sailing, while waiting for a spare rudderblade or whatever if you ever broke one. To be fair though, you should try phone them to confirm that they have received your e-mail requests, since if they have not, you are doing them a dis-service by publishing your viewpoint, although it seems from others that this is fairly common service.
Also need to consider SOME form of factory or builder support - at the very least, find out if there is a local boatbuilder who is familiar with repairing the technology of the boat you intend to buy, unless you don`t mind shipping it off for repairs and waiting 3 months for it to return, all at a price. Wouter DOES make sense - why buy a boat that costs so much more if it doesn`t deliver so much more performance, but it is after all your personal choice.
I am a little confused though that you dismiss the Shadow (Swell Catamarans) as being too heavy to right solo at 100kg, while you claim to be able to right the Hobie 16 solo, and have no problem sailing it - the Shadow will be much easier to sail and right solo since it was designed with that in mind, and if I`m not mistaken Tim Swinburn sailed one halfway round Ireland a while ago.
I`m also a little confused that you say that spinnaker sailing is practically a must-have for you, yet have narrowed your choice down to two A-class makes and an M18, only one of the three satisfy that criteria.
Given that you sail in lght winds I agree that a spinnaker is a must-have, as it lowers the wind-range at which you can fly a hull downwind, and who is really having fun when they are NOT flying a hull ? (Californians aside)
So I think you need to re-look at your criteria and decide which of them are more important - If a 100kg boat is too heavy then you only have the choice of A-class or M18 (not sure what that weighs.) If you want a spinnaker boat then the A-class can be crossed off the list (unless you retrofit it yourself and don`t mind voiding warranties). If you want to sail double-handed or single-handed, with or without a spinnaker, you really have to add the F16 back to the list (unless the weight criteria is the most important one).Other things to consider would be possible resale value in or out of your region - you might struggle to find a buyer for an M18, but a Blade would in all probability find a buyer, if not locally then in Europe. I think the Blade has grown up and proven itself as an F16 design that is well put together and has factory support that has allowed them to be sent to Europe and Singapore to build fleets there, so I would look into that option quite seriously as you will have good backing from Vectorworks and their European dealer.
Furthermore, since you are not entirely sure what your real criteria are in order of priority, the F16 gives a nice flexible range of uses. Yes, the A-class are beautiful boats, but have been designed and refined with only one thing in mind, not to carry a spinnaker, and not to carry two crew, they may do both but not as well as other boats designed spicifically to do these things, in much the same way that an F16 can be sailed unirig, solo, with no spinnaker, and will do so very well, but will not keep pace with an A in that configuration.
In your position I would get the list of F16 suppliers, A-class suppliers and any other type of boat you think would suit your needs, send them all a group e-mail (so they are aware that they are pitching against eachother for the sale
) and ask them how much their boat would cost, including shipping to your port, taxes etc all included. Buy the first one who gets back to you with a firm commitment.
That way you are assured of further dealer support when you need it.

Good luck in your choice.

Now, off-topic :
Boat-bashing is pretty stupid considering we`re all in this tiny microcosm together, if catsailing vanished entirely only one person in my neighborhood would even know it had existed. With this in mind it makes so little sense for us to carry on like we do.
Sarah has 2 years of sailing behind her now, 2 years of fun and experience which she WILL put to good use on ANY boat. Had she followed the advice given 2 years ago by all the "mentors" here, she would have taken up sandboarding instead.
Things I have learned from sailing vastly different boats :
-Keelboat sailing teaches you tactics that you can use on cats.
-Hobie 16 sailing taught me to respect the bow, and know how much is too much. It also taught me how to depower a ridiculously overpowered boat, albeit with an entirely different technique to that which I use now. It taught me capsize drill, that the jib DOES count, and that you can sail it in a LOT of wind.
-Sailing against Hobie 16s on my supposedly faster boat has taught me that a well-sailed H16 is faster than it is on paper (or maybe I`m slower than my boat )

-Windsurfing has taught me that I can pitch up at a slalom event with an outdated 14year old board with a beaten up sail, and rather than being ridiculed for my kit, I get advice, help, tuning tips, get lent equipment, all from guys I don`t even know. Seems catsailing is on the decline for a reason.

This one`s for Pat : I question the sanity of anyone who allows his wife and daughter to have a black belt in ANYTHING. Dude, you are looking for a beating .
I CAN see the up-side, though "Honey, there`s a burglar downstairs, please go sort him out, if you need backup, call our daughter"

"This report, by it`s very length, defends itself against the risk of being read" - Winston Churchill

Hey Sarah.....

How about a Flyer. Just found this on the A Class Forum.

http://p105.ezboard.com/faclasscatamaranforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=124.topic

fast a class from august 2003 in very good condition for sale (5th in Spanish nationals 2005). Saarberg mast, simoon cooke daggerboards, new rudders, carbon boom, gottifreddi ropes, harken fitout, with 2 sails: 1 goodall in new condition and 1 ashby mod 2003 used. Beach trolley and cover included. Price: 11500 euros.
The boat is in Valencia but i can bring it to Barcelona. If interested contactme at ginfante@espacc.com. I will send photos if requested.

Doug: What I have been trying to say is that any boat is a good boat(and there are people saying the 16 is not a good boat) Learning to sail while having some fun and having someone to help you out is what is important. People often stop sailing when they have no one else to sail with no matter what boat they chose.
The largest class of cat in the country is by far the non-spin H16 and probably will be for quit a while. I think the spin boats are super cool and I will have one in time.
If you want to get better faster, sail in large fleets not by yourself with no benchmark to see how your doing and no one to tell stories with after.

If your in-Put In Bay, get a wave.
If your in N.Y or N.J- get a 16 or now a Tiger.
Where Jamie D is in Ohio has a nice group of 4.3's
The New England Area has a lot of Nacra's.
The South East seems to be F-18

In the areas mentioned people have stepped up and organized the sailing and are having success.

In my humble opinion if you want to own the best boat then there is a good argument for buying an A cat but if you want to be the best sailor then you need to buy what the other good sailors in your club are sailing that is by far the best way to improve your sailing. In my club thats H16 and i'm very happy with that. If you have a good club the other issues such as righting the boat, and moving it around on the beach can be easily solved with help.

A better sailor will be a better sailor regardless of the boat he is on.

I have a friend that sails in Dubai and he claims that the club has staff that rig your boat and put it in the water for you, but he may be just saying this to make me jelous.

Gareth