SL16 Class & F-16

You know someone with a crystal ball, then?

Can you tell me why its growth relative to the F16 is relevant anyway? How do you think it'll compare to the Nacra F17 class growth? Or indeed any other class?

This boat has been chosen as the new ISAF youth multihull, so it seems likely that the class will grow very fast, at the expense of the Hobie 16 class that it's replacing in this role.

The really interesting question is what will this do for youth cat sailing in general? Is it the new design that's needed to make cat sailing a more attractive option? Or is the upfront cost of moving the fleets across to a brand new boat going to do long term damage?

You can help answer this: does your son find the SL16 significantly more attractive than the H16?

What I do know is that if a Texel rating of 115 is accurate for these boats then they're not in competition with boats such as the F18, F16 and Spitfire with ratings of 104 or less - although I hope that the SL16 will be come a great feeder for these classes.

Paul

Art Stevens just forwarded the following to me:

11-11-06 La Baule, France
IT IS OFFICIAL, the Sirena SL16 will be for the first time the catamaran for young sailors at the ISAF Youth Worlds 2008 that will take place in Aarhus, Denmark, in July 2008. Indeed, the Danish Sailing Federation, following a series of demon-strations and tests completed with the Northern Europe distributor of Sirena (the famous Borresen Company), decided to select the SL16.
The SL16, a modern catamaran designed by Yves Loday (gold medal at the Olympics of Barcelona in 1992) and developed with Sirena, brings performance and innovation in the world of multihull sailing.
May 2006: the ISAF council has added the SL16 to the list of dinghies for ISAF events; and, following a series of tests, the SL16 was already nominated since November 2005 as the 'preferred' catamaran for youth worlds.
For 2009, the Brazilian Federation has decided to select existing classic dinghies (the SL16 is not yet built locally and the cost of import is still a barrier). Nevertheless, since Brazil is a very pro-active country for youth sailing, Sirena is establishing contacts in view to develop a strategic partnership: 'The objective is to transfer the technology over a period of 4 years and to achieve local manufacturing of the SL16' as stated by Olivier Morel, the Managing Director of Sirena-Voile.
The SL16 just completed the European season with one more brillant victory during the traditional 'Armistice' November 11 regatta in Bordeaux/France (first, third and fifth place among 39 catamarans in the 16 feet category).

In a few days at the Paris boat show the SL16 will be exhibited again, while the class association (www.slica16.org) prepares the Second SL16 GOLD CUP regatta which will take place in La Baule, France from August 25th to 28th, 2007.

SL 16's are already being built in the U.S. by Performance Catamarans.

I think that the SL16 will definitely revitalize interest in youth multihull sailing. It is definitely time to move forward with a new boat. Kids know the current trends better than we do, just look at the 29er and 49er sailors out there.. They are not racing CL16s maybe sailing them at sailing schools..)
(or pick any older boat) any more for a variety of reasons including the fact that the newer designs are more fun and more exciting and easier to sail..
As to the SL16 being relevant to other classes..well any change to cat sailing that brings fresh new interest from youth sailors is very welcome.

Yes the cost is a factor since there are no used ones in north america..but that will change. The top teams will always buy new boats anyway and these will take a couple of years to trickle down to the rest of the fleet as used boats.

I don't think that anyone said that the SL16 would be competing with other classes..F18, F17 etc.

This looks like a cool boat.
I know I am not an expert or even close to one but it seems like this kind of thing happens all the time in lots of markets. Everyone predicts that something will sell well then it doesn't or at least not as well as everyone would like it to.
Is this boat gonna be something like that?

Like I said I really don't know much about this, I just am trying to bring up and interesting conversation.

Indeed, I was just trying to get to the bottom of what was meant by the title of this thread, and by comparing class growth with that of F16. I agree with you: I think it's irrelevant, except that I hope that the SL16 will lead to growth of all cat classes by bringing more people into the sport.

A question from the ignorant: do the ISAF youth events currently sail the H16 with or without kites?

Paul

With.

Pitchpole Dave,you being from Canada should know better than anyone that a new fancy boat is not the simple answer to (re)vitilizing cat sailing here in Canada.
The CSA has shown no interest in supporting or organizing any cat sailing program here in CAN.
I have talked to them on several occassions as I have children sailing cats.Even with the youth worlds being here in Canada this year there is no mention of any qualifiying prosses for multihulls.
The HCA on the other hand has grant money available for youths to attent hobie youth regattas.
No I don,t think I will be rushing out and buying a new SL16 with the hopes of it taking off.By the way the youth worlds( for the 10-12 teams) that attend will be held on the hobie 16 with Spi. in 2007 & 2009.

They can certainly try ! <img src=

alt=

/>

But maybe the true focus should be put on

... when they are ready ...

It has taken them a few years already to get out of the start blocks.

Personally I don't really envision the youth boat market to be that large in the way of catamarans. Therefor I don't expect very large growth numbers. Also it has been my personal experience that launching a new boat design/class in todays catamaran market is anything but easy. Without a much hightened attention to class building a new design simply doesn't stand much of a chance.

These SL16's guys may be setting themselfs up for disappointment. I mean, selling the SL16 as

bringing performance and innovation into the world of multihull sailing

in a scene dominated by A-cats, F18's, Tornado's, I-20's and F16's is a pretty tough act to pull off.

I wish them the best of luck though. I like to see those youngster fly a kite in a breeze !

Wouter

Well first of all I didn't say that this was the total solution to getting kids interested in sailing. But it is part of it. I can't speak to what the CSA is or isn't doing. However, the CSA and other organizations depend on the sailors for the most part to organize themselves and promote the sport. If there are not a lot of youth getting into sailing its not the CSAs fault. In fact I have had a lot of positive feedback from the CSA and OSA in building the cat fleet here in Ontario.

As to what the qualifying process is for the youth worlds, I believe there was an event held in BC for this.

I haven't heard of any youth in Canada getting any of this Hobie money.. Who in Canada has received money from them?

Also, in Ontario we have an excellent source of funding for sailing..and that is the Trillium grant program. I know of several yacht clubs who have received up to $100,000 towards the purchase of new boats, crashboats etc. And also Yacht clubs have helped sponsor sailing teams..both youth and adult teams.

1) It's Hobie Class Association money, not Hobie Cat. Please get that straight. One is not the other.
2) You have to be an HCA Member
3) You have to apply for it (HOTLINE, page 30)

Last year, we even waived a lot of the application requirements in an attempt to give the money away.

Just looking at the North American Market, shouldn't take much <img src=

alt=

/> The F16 class seem to be just several racers in the Southern United States & a few internet racers.
I think after five years in the North American market, Bob nailed it

One more little point, the S l16 Class is a sloop class, but the F16 class wants to be a uni & sloop class <img src=

alt=

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Season Greetings
Chris

Do we have to go through this nonsense again? Despite the first post's attempt to draw this into a pointless F16 vs SL16 debate, I had hoped we could discuss something constructive on this thread, specifically, how do we get more youth sailors interested in cat sailing?

Whenever I see youth monohull opens such as the Oppies or the 29ers I see that there is no shortage of cash being invested in youth sailing. How do we get some of that and grow cat sailing as a whole?

Over the summer I took a young guy out on my fad boat. He'd sailed plenty of fast monohulls, and indeed some cats (no kite). Got him out the trap with the kite up and he suddenly understood what cat sailing was about. Cats should be the perfect boats for adrenaline-powered teenagers, but instead they're spending their time on wobbly half-boats.

But why bother? Let's just have another my-class-is-better-than-yours s**t-slinging contest. It is a whole week since we last did it.

Paul

Several comments!

Building a youth fleet of ANY high performance boat is tough. Take a look at the 29ner class on the east coast... They had their first ever mid Atlantic regatta this fall. (5 loaner boats)! They have tried for 5-7 years to get this fleet going and its been very slow. The 420 remains the youth 2 man boat with local, regional and national competition and a track towards collegiate competition... while the 29ner is a niche boat with a handful of regattas (maybe 3 or 4) on the east coast. It is targeting families that are shooting for the ISAF youth worlds... not local yacht club adoption into their junior sailing programs. This looks like the track the SL16 will take as well.

mmadge points to a potential problem.
If the sailing catamaran families who have a kid shooting for ISAF world competition and they hang onto the Hobie 16 as their junior catamaran of choice... How will the SL16 take off and how will the kids be successful in international competition? ...

Will we build a two tiered system?
SL16 sailors who compete nationally and internationally
Regional sailors who compete on H16’s no spins.
Does this make sense?

Remember... the juniors time out at the age of 21... if it takes 5 years to build a national racing class... Your current 15 year old will be finished with the class and it might be very difficult to really get a competitive national fleet going in those 5 years ($$$$).

Its a bit of the chicken and egg problem.. do you have events... that then draw sailors and boats.... OR do you have boats in the field for which you get races going.

If you have competition for the sailors.... eg Hobie 16 non spin junior class ...Do you help or hurt youth catamaran racing in the USA.

Has anyone ever surveyed the number of junior cat sailors and where they go racing.

I know the Syracuse fleet has lots of juniors in their B and C fleet H16 races... What else is out there..... Anyone know?

BTW
Take a look at the promotion and marketing effort they have invested for the 29ner... They had a terrific web site profiling their world championships in San Francisco (see the Tiger fiasco for a contrast). hey market spills and chills, color and energy!

For what its worth… I tried to GIVE Hobie 16's AWAY as free charters for a junior Hobie 16 regatta on the Chesapeake bay... I managed to find only two teams and they bailed at the last minute. (my marketing to juniors... sucks) The junior fleet at the regatta was two of our local cat jr teams. I am not sure I can pull it off this year because of insurance issues and lack of interest among half of the local juniors with a competing event.

We need a coherent program that everyone buys into.... It looks to me that we pull the small number of kids in two directions and have a suragate fight, the age old,... my class is better then your class AGAIN! (And there is NO SL16 class yet)

Mark
Sssh.

Mark you hit the nail on the head when you said that yacht clubs weren't adopting any type of multi for their sailing school..That is definitely part of our problem. It is up to US to get in there and influence those decisions.

We have decided to start a multihull cat sailing school from the ground up without being part of a yacht club. We are quite far along with our plans and it will be running for 2007. Our local municipality has given us a long term lease on a prime beach, and the local Rotary club is building new washrooms and showers for us. Classroom will either be a portable or else another room built as part of the washroom facilities. We have donations of 5 boats so far..2 h14s and 3 h16s.. Its amazing what kind of support the local community is giving us. All you have to do is ask.

Format will be the traditional 2 week sessions, with some racing clinics on the weekends. If people want to come from out of town then we can look around to find somewhere to stay.

I think that this kind of initiative is what is required to promote cat sailing. We need a few more of these cat sailing schools to start. There are a couple schools in Quebec and cat sailing is really doing well there.

If you are interested in coming to the school or having your kids come let me know.

And, if you have any h14s or h16s that you would like to donate that would be greatly appreciated. We can even give a charitable tax receipt.

Personally I think that youths are best trained initially on what ever cat dad has.

Only when they show some noticeable skills and determination to put the many hours of practice in then they shoukd consider purchasing the youth boat.

I think many people are not looking past the ISAF back waters of France and UK. France as a taxation climate that largely stimulates sponsorship money into new boats. UK feels that they have to keep up appearances in the world of sailing. In effect both these nations have considerable budgets. The rest of the world ? It is all mom and pop shelling out the doe to buy junior a youth boat. Overhere in NL, in monohulls, we have the optimist and the splash, both boats are less then halve the cost of the SL16 and they have a very active second hand market. 29-er is non-existant.

It really isn't about some official deciding boat A or B is the next youth boat and then expecting all those parents to knock down your door. It has never been that way in the beach catamaran scene and it won't be that way in the future. I they think they are going to hit big with the SL16

just like that

then they have another thing coming.

So I think the planning for youth sailors should be top down rather then wrong side up. In effect, kid races with his dad or mom and likes it enough to persue it further. Then an experienced racing crew takes kid of parent hands and show him or her the ropes on any cat this experienced racer has. Kid learns tons about tactics, wind and water conditions and team cooperation. Then when kid is still in the game after a while he can be relatively retrained to the ISAF youth boat of the day while being under a professional coach.

That my friends is the only way to do it in by far the most nations around the world.

It is never about any specific boat, it is all about discovering the kids early enough to have time to train themselfs up to the skill level of the French and Brits before they hit 21 and become senior. To bad there is NO CLASS for SL16 sailors over 21. These younsters have to peak very early in a game that mostly favours older and more experienced crews. Afterall, sailing is only for 10 % a physical sport, the rest is experience, tactics and the ability to read the wind and water conditions.

Besides the F16 - SL16 comparison is just beyond silly; that is in addition to beside the point.

I am thrilled however that F16 was chosen as the benchmark to measure themselfs against. Does hint at something doesn't it.

But I truly feel this is all extremely irrelevant. Thing is to get these youths away from their nintendo's and sailing on whatever boat you can get your hands on. A 12.000 Euro threshold to get the right boat will not help here. And 12.000 Sl16 is not any less an obstacle then a 12.000 F16 or 12.000 F18. It really doesn't make any difference which class is considered. Building an organisation that recognizes talent early and then couples that talent to an experienced racer nearby is key.

Wouter

Come back when you've sold and delivered 50 boats. (and I ain't joking)

Wouter

Wouter, what are you not joking about?

Please don't misunderstand me. The

not joking

part refers to the number 50, not to any threat or anything. I guess my earlier post is indeed open to multiple intepretations, sorry about that.

For the remainder I agree with Paul Warren. This discussion (and comparison between SL16 and F16) is just plain silly. The real interesting part is whether these new develpments have helped youth sailing or not. I think brandnames and boat types are irrelevant in that.

Wouter

Hey Wouter has perhaps set a thought in motion, have an olympic class for Dad and nipper, nipper has to be no older than 18 and dad can be as old and gnarly as he likes, the girlies will get all upset but why not mum and nipper, everybody will be equal, best family wins the olympic gold medal for SL16's.

I have said this before but I'll say it again. 49er sailers started on Optis or whatever when they were 5, 6 and 7.
That is where the choices start, cat sailing needs a small no trap boat in the Olympics to aim at ( against the Laser) and a tiny 7 year olds start up boat. If it doesn't start there then it will always be trying to convert half boat sailors.
Cat clubs would have to invite the youngies into the fold with club owned boats and uncomprimising dedication to the next generation.

I totally disagree. I think monohulls are the place for kids to start.

Robi,
You are the man!

What's the platform weigh anyway?

and min. crew weight?
<img src=

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Just to clarify the status of that particular statement Ken, can you please tell us where and from whom you heard this opinion?

I have asked around and it is not an opinion held by Topper in the UK (they will be supplying UK SL-16s) and yet the UK is probably one of the key countries for uptake of such a design.

I am therefore somewhat confused as to why anyone should choose the F16 as a benchmark over, say, the H16 or Dart 16 or Hobie Dragoon? Furthermore, I can't see the attraction of paying more than the price of a current F16 for a boat that's slower and almost 40Kgs heavier.

Nah, I think someone's been pulling your chain Ken......

Mary, I'm surprised at this statement. Beyond the fact that most parents are attached to monohulls, it seems as though learning on monohulls leads a youngster to sailing them as a regular course of activity and then the young sailor's path is now set (except for a chance encounter with multihulls and subsequent conversion because of their speed). Wouldn't Waves be a good place to start?

David

It's an interesting question.

I learnt to sail on monohulls when I was a kid. I did a few 1 week RYA courses. One of the main things I remember about them was always trying to get onto a faster boat: a laser rather than a topper, a laser full-rig rather than radial, or a laser 2 not a laser. After the last of those courses I then didn't sail for around 10 years until a friend took me out on his Dart 18.

The Toppers and Lasers were really good boats to learn on, but what I lacked was any clear idea of where I wanted to get to. I daresay that had I been out for a joy-ride on a cat or a fast wobbly half-boat during those courses there would have been a lot more pressure on the parents to do more sailing when I got back. So I think that a sailing program that concentrat on teaches people to sail in oppies/toppers/lasers is fine, but it needs to be combined with some experience of what they could sail if they stick at it, and there must be plenty of kids out there who have my

the faster the better

attitude and who'd love a ride on a cat.

Paul

See www.sailsandpoint.org. To grow a multihull program, you need to have both the small monohulls to start on, then Waves and Hobie 16's as they progress. We have about 60 boats including Opti's, Lasers, FJ's, Club 420's, Waves and now five donated Hobie 16's. My Grandson, Dan started on the Wave, but really learned to sail after a couple of days on an Opti. They need to feel the quick response, that only a small monohull can provide. The five Waves we have contiune to be the most popular boats in the open sailing program. Last year, we added the Hobie 16 to the Youth and Adult classes. We also have monday night racing to help build the racing programs for all boats. The key to any program is the instructors and volunteers. Since we did not have an instructor for the Hobie 16's, Jerry Valeske, our HCA Div.4 Chair, stepped forward, took the US SAILING Level 1 Instuctor Course, and taught our classes this year. He volunteered teaching the classes, on his own time, in addition to his full time day job at Boeing.
Dan will return to Sail Sand Point this summer for his fourth year, and is looking forward to taking Jerry's H-16 Class. He has raced the Wave the past two years, but is now ready to move up to the H-16.
Caleb Tarleton