Boat price replies, support etc only on this subthread, please
GEastment writes:
In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting to hear the different points of view from the different continents, so thanks!
Thought I would chuck in my thoughts on the Australian scene, as I have observed the decline of the sport here.
First point to make is that much of the fleets that I sailed in when I was a kid (monos & a little bit of cats) were kids of parents who had started sailing in the post war dinghy boom- cheap home made one-design boats that hit the water in thousands. Mirrors, herons, etc. (Since then the fleets have shrunk and shrunk. I think this is at least in part because the boats became more complex, expensive and it was just harder to 'keep up' if you wanted to be competitive. It is interesting to see the new mono designs eat each other up, while classes like the heron here in aus make a bit of a comeback)
I think this provided the background for the cat boom in the 70's and 80's- a vaguely sailing literate public saw a cheap way to jump into the sport in the shape of the hobies and maricats etc. Mostly 14 footers that were fun and not too intimidating for the novice. Since that initial period we have gradually gotten more expensive and bigger and faster- now if you want to start in a 14 you almost have to sail alone around behind all the bigger boats- not very inviting! So the same goes for the cats as for the monos; those not going the 'whole hog' get left behind and end up dropping off. cf the thousands of 14ft cats sitting in backyards doing squat. (Exactly the same thing has happened to windsurfing here- when I was wave sailing in the 80's there was apparently 40 to 50 shops here in Sydney selling parts/ boards etc. Now there are two. It got more and more complex and the boards got shorter and the thing just evolved itself back onto the fringes).
As i reread the above, it is all a bit rambly, but I think there are a few valid obsevations... but what to do? I'm outta time, so might come back... but I believe the answer lies with a focus on clubs, not classes and dealers (though imp), a focus on junior sailing (the future, this is where the strong mono fleets come from, and a focus outside SMOD (single manufacturer one design) racing. One design, yes, but with open rules re sailmaker, parts etc...makes sailing cheaper as there is competition. (Having said that, H16 remains one of the only entry type boats you can but that has a decent fleet etc here in aus, so is a valuable boat for sailing here.)
Just some thoughts, hope they provoke thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what the original retail price of a hoby 14 was, in today's dollars? I know a website that does the calculations for you... Anyone know the original price, in the original dollars?
Setup time/on the beach ideas only on this thread, please.
Set up time is cited as a factor in certain demo-psychographic segments. IN ONE subthread, can we press manufacturers to make 'speed kits' optional and somewhat reasonable. Murrays sells a couple o' packages, they get little PR, IMHO they are a pretty good investment.
I did an informal survey on
on the beach
storage, after a wonderfull time at SHBCC. (around the statue) Everyone was 'hot' till one guy said his 'old boat' rusted out in one season 'on the beach' and suddenly everyone went cool on the idea. Rebuttals, pleeze!!!
Other ideas on Set up time?
speed kits for boat setup? What are these? Are you talking about mast winches and the like? (this probably reiterates your point about publication of these items).
[color]Jake
[color]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
[color]Hobie 18 (???)
nope. I meant Murray's sells you a baggie of quickpins, snapshackles etc custom chosen for your boat. Dealers should offer a
Quick setup
option including these items.
Further Education: Set -up tricks.
For example, I just this season started leaving the main blocks on my N5.0 (Factory blocks, no crime area, rain washes 'em clean etc) I just hook the clew hook onto the jib block bracket and knot the mainsheets loosly on the foot strap. Time saved, close eto 5 minutes. Stuffing the rest of my lines in the tramp bag, for another minute shaved off. I stopped coiling my wires on the tramp, now I drag 'em forward and loop a bungee through 'em, for another minute saved. I
m going to put another tiny hi-load block under my clew, so to leave my downhaul rigged all the time, for another minute. Clips on the ends instead ob tying a bowline around the trapeze tensioner shock for another minute. I use plastic 2
balls to attach my jib leads. snap shackles top and bottom of the jib.
What other quick-setup ideas can we assemble, package and distribute to dealers/manuf. as
quick-up
gear and training?
I think Ed has asked some good questions and Mark Michealson has hit the nail on the head. I believe access and time are the most critical issues for sailing to grow as a sport in this country.
My family joined a yacht club when I was 13 years old. I quickly jumped right into the junior sailing program and soon had my own boat. The yacht club was my focal point for fun. If I was not sailing my boat, I was fishing, swimming, or playing football or frisbee with my friends. As I got more into sailing, it was a great place to hang out and play with my boat and enjoy the camaraderie of other sailors.
At this point in time, I am not a member of a yacht club. I have to trailer my boat and gear to a launch site, setup, and then go sailing. Luckily for me, I am currently using a state park where I can leave the boat overnight if I want to sail more than two days. The extra time required for boat setup and takedown definetly takes some of the attraction away from sailing every spontaneous opportunity. I also have sailboards that are alot easier for that occasion.
I am about to join a yacht club that has access to a decent launch site for beach cats. I will be able to keep my boat rigged and go sailing anytime with minimum hassle. I believe it will increase my time on the water exponentially and will be well worth the membership expense.
Most beach cat sailors who want to sail more and find themselves limited for time should look at yacht club membership. Most yacht clubs have aging memberships and are looking for new blood. There could be great opportunites to convert new sailors to the fun of multihull sailing. It's also too bad that our communities do not have public sailing facilities that would offer dry storage facilities. Several communities in this country do but it is quite the exception rather than the norm.
Regarding the PWC phenomenon, what can you say. I've only been on a jet ski once in my life and I was bored in 15 minutes. Many PWC operators (and that's a generous label at times) show alot of bad behavior on the water. In a culture where bullies are glorified at times, I don't think you are going to see PWC numbers go down anytime soon.
As a fellow Gulf Coaster, I think the real issue is a place to keep a boat rigged. MS catters should be members of Ocean Springs YC or Long Beach YC (very affordable and great access). In FL, Fort Walton Yacht Club is a great site, Pensacola Yacht Club is nice but is a terrible launch for a cat.
Bob Hodges
There's about three or four great ideas in there I've never heard of. There is book potential there (or a really nice manufacturer's boat manual).
[color]Jake
[color]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
[color]Hobie 18 (???)
I know I am not really answering your question about the original retail price of a hoby 14 was, in today's dollars but I do know the current price for a Hobie 14 shipped to the USA is $6100.00.
Thanks
Bill Baldwin @ Hobie Cat USA recalls them to be $995. That matches my recollection as well and the price with a trailer was $1150.00.
Mark Michaelsen
Mark Michaelsen
www.sailingproshop.com
(800) 354-7245
Okay, it's a little more than 3k. today. But 4.9k, all up w/trailer is a far cry from 10k. for the wave!!! That's price migration!!
<font class=
small
>In reply to:
What cost $1150.00 in 1971 would cost $4926.28 in 2000.
Source
The pre-1975 data are the Consumer Price Index statistics from Historical Statistics of the United States (USGPO, 1975). All data since then are from the annual Statistical Abstracts of the United States.
This from The Inflation Calculator
I would have been smarter to ahve created independed threads, now every time one post is added this long thread pushes all the others of the page of out of attention.
Please plit up the threads in to new main threads.
Wouter
-
Of course you're right wouter, I just didn't want the 4 to get separated. perhapse Rick can 'promote' the entire
Traction
thread to it's own main thread. - since the comments are already coming, I shudder to attempt to 'migrate' them now myself.
Maybe you'd like to copy 'em all, then we'll ask Rick to delete my originals - sounds confusing.
** I know why don't you just get a better ISP!!!* š
Just kidding, Wouter. But you can use the
back
button to navigate within any subthread.....
Ed
<P ID=
edit
><FONT class=
small
>Edited by Ed Norris on 11/01/01 02:01 PM.
The HOBIE WAVE retails for $3795.00. I still think that is a fair price but I want to remind people that there are lots of boats here on the west coast that sell for under $1000 and are in good shape.
MM
Mark Michaelsen
www.sailingproshop.com
(800) 354-7245
Yeah, leave it for now, but when the discussion really starts going maybe a seperate forum is the best suited alternative if you want to keep the thread together. Rick is very willing to help you with that as he has helped us in the formula group.
Wouter
OMIGOSH!
Where did I hear 10K???
I guess this answers my original question,
Why doesn't Hobie/Perf think it's a good idea to do a
starter boat
?
Clearly they do think so. Now they need to be able, in my humble opinion, to be simple enough to sell like a snark, in a mass-market environment, and more simply upgradeable, like lego. The forum queries on installing some of the kits suggest this isn't perfected with the wave yet.
Regards,
Ed
to Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of my domain
Ed,
I thought That 10 K was remarkable in the first place for the Nacra 5.0 costs less and so does a Hobe 16 in EU. But more importantly this 10 K would buy you a A-cat look alike with double trapeze, jib and genaker too. There are no more goodies to add then. I think you know which type of boats I mean.
So maybe If we take of all that go fast stuff that was included in the 10 K we' ll lower the price by - 400 USD for jib - 1000 USD. get rig of that expensiveCarbon stick and get that only 4 kg's heavier alu stick - 1200 USD.
Total savings : 10.000 -2600 USD = 7400 USD for a double trapped boat that still sails with I-17R's and nacra 5.5 uni when soloed by an adult or crewed by two teenagers. two adults would still sail as fast as a hobie 16. The lightweight would make it rightable for kids especially is ricks righting pole is used.
And this boat would be properly upgradable to the really High performance that you're looking for.
Sorry to push this design but it was partly created just for this problem and therefor answers your question.
Wouter
Bob,
when they redid the harbor at Long Beach, it effectively cut out beachcat sailing from there. Almost all of the beachcat sailors from LBYC moved to OSYC. That's also why Slip to Ship is now held at OSYC.
sea ya
tami
Hats off to the BIM guys, for a step in the right direction.
The BIM A -cat has the
upgradable all the way to top-end
thing locked up. But at 7,400 US, my gut feel is, it's one tier up from what I'm fumbling around for here.
The WAVE has the
economical entry level boat
thing locked up at 3,700 US, actually cheaper than the original H 14 after inflation adjustment. But even with jib and traps, it's still a tad short LOA and narrow of beam for upgrade all the way to
high end
Is there a traveler kit? Easy to put on? Is there a Downhaul kit? D-Wires kit, for prebend rig? I've sailed a wave, and it's a nice fun boat. Making the upgrade path a 'factory authorized
one allows some more performance while potentially preserving that
precisely one design
feeling you get when you know simply everything about the competition's boat is just like yours, so the
tiller nut
gets all the credit/blame. (I know, some value that rather less than others!!!)
Can either boat be Mass marketed? Mark commented to me that his inclination is to say,
No, you're just gonna have to have dealer support; training up a bunch of hourly employees at a Sporting Goods outlet will be daunting
Can the assembly/setup challenges involved be simplified, mechanically? Howzabout a video? Telephone support? To expensive, right?
How about cutting in the nearerst Dealer for a slice of every
Outlet - sold
boat, provided they commit to providing support, and supplying the Dealer's name to the Outlet purchaser? Mark, do you think the residuals, upgrades, gear etc sales would make it worth your while to be called on for setup advice? I
m guessing such help would have to be strictly in your store, which limits it some, or does it? How about where there are no dealers nearby? Local cat club? I'd volunteer to help a newcomer setup in a second, so would most sailors, and Hobie could keep the money.
(Only 'cause I'm too far away to be hurting Mark, or any dealer for that matter, who rightly should seek some reward if they were to do this as a business relaitonship supporting mass marketed hobie product. š )
Most of the above is probably useless, not worth the phosphors your screen is beaming into your eyes with. But If I can throw out admittedly dumb ideas, you guys can too... That's the first phase of brainstorming. Later we pick a few usefull plans out.
So lets hear some free associating!!!
Ed
(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.
Hi Ed, You need to get more info about the Wave before you write anything else about it since you are terribly misinformed. The Wave does retail for $3800 and can be had for around $3200 after the Nationals in December at Rick's Place (ten boats this year, at least). I write
around
because Hobie likes to set the price only at the last minute to make it harder for interested buyers so they have not set the price yet as far as I know. I bought my last one there last year for $3200 after sailing in the regatta. Also the boat does come with
upgradable features
as you ask for in the form of a jib kit, a spinnaker kit, and a back rest. There is no need for diamond wires as the sail is about as roachy as you could make it and it works fine as is. Also the main desirable feature of the boat is its simplicity and quick rigging time so you would not want to mess that up.
Also it is DOES NOT have the low price locked up in North America. The Mystere 4.3 is still available with main, jib, and spinnaker w/snuffer for only $3400 US. Only delivery is extra and, speaking from experience, you can get a pretty good rate per boat when you ship 30 at a time! This is a fully outfitted boat with top notch equipment like Harken airblocks, Ronstan autoratchets, extendable hiking stick, etc. I have owned and raced a cat since 1980 and this boat is an incredibly low priced fun maker. Mystere sells a comparably equipped 5.0 for $5400 U.S. When word got around here last winter that we were getting an order together people of all experience levels and incomes joined in. So I know that price IS an issue and having a good product was a bonus (people had already sent there money in without having even seen the boats). When they got them they were nearly awestruck at their good fortune to have received such a nice boat and equipment. Manufacturer support is just as awe inspiring! Ever hear of Hobie or Nacra offering free sails to owners who raced at enough regattas? Well next week I am going to pick up free spinnakers for the owners who raced at least seven regattas during the sailing season! There were a number of boats that were barely used during the season for the various reasons already mentioned in this string and then some. But I have not seen another boat in a very long time get so many people out sailing, especially kids and females, and I have not seen any other boat get so cat sailors to try a spinnaker. The cries went from
that spinnaker is too big
early in the season to
can we get a bigger spinnaker?
later in the season as their fear turned to fun! So if people do invest the time in the boat they learn quickly and get hooked. Most of the boats with very little use were rigged with masts up at a club with easy water access. More fodder for the mind.
Mike, I'm so glad to read your post. So I'm not crazy, in my original post, to suggest that a 3K-0r-so boat is a good starter? I thought it would be, and kinda thunk I was missing something. Good to know otherwise.
BTW, I wasn't 'writing about' the wave, I was asking about it. The only two statements I made were to the effect that a) posts on this bb indicated some hassles with an upgrade kit being counter-intuitive, if memory serves, and to say that I enjoyed my sail on a Wave. I guess
locked up
was a poor choice of words. I truely meant
Locked up
as in 'got it done' not
Locked all others out
Shoulda said locked in or accomplished or such. 'swhat I get for dashing off a few graphs on company time w/out editing... sincere thanks for clarifying.
Wish I knew more about the Mystere before I paid 4200 for my then 2 year old N 5.0. Somebody please tell me I didn't do too badly.
Okay, so how do we address the 'mass marketing' questions in my post???
Mike, what's your opinion of Mark's opinion that
it takes a dealer
?
How about product placement? Thomas Crown may be portrayed and described by his luscious costar as
wrecking
a Formula 40(???) and Kevin of California had his hovering trimaran (remember the scene where he literally lifts all of it over a rope by hiking out to windward?) Neither did much for Beachcats.
But howzabout a budweizer commercial showing two guys beachcatting... on 5-6 meter boats, regular 20-30 yr old
thrill seekers
(no gills allowed, no zillionaires need apply) dragging out and downing a frosty with bikini chiks? Maybe a Worrell re-enactment theme? Couldn't Hobie or their Parent, (Northrop-Gruman???) pay some director to put a beachcat in a bit somewhere?
'Nother take on support for 'mass market' starter boats. Hypothetically:
1. Manufacturer, dealers, catclubs, and Big-Box sport-goods stores cooperate. Winners all around, as Manufacturer sells boats, dealer sells upgrades, sailing gear and eventual trade-ups. Cat clubs make themselves available to assist with on-beach support, gain new members, sailing buddies, maybe tiny extra discounts, you name it. Dealer does phone only support and refers hands-on problems to cat clubs. All this outlined to customers in the Big Box Sporting goods store. Manufacturer promises dealers only 'starter' boats to be sold this way. Probably, high end is way too support intensive for this venue anyway.
Comments???
I know it's a stretch, your Ideas can't be half as thin, so be brave and post 'em!
(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.
Ed-
If you have portholes on your boat- Just
feed
(stuff) the shrouds, trap lines, forestay in your hulls. No bunji and if you do in a repetitive manner (ie. stuff the shroud in first, then the forestay, then the trap lines and remove in opposite order) they don't end up tangled (except the trap rings sometimes but it's not a problem).
Kirt Simmons
Kirt Simmons
Taipan #159,
A
cat US 48
Mike Fahle how do I locate a dealer or importer about the Mystere 4.3. Sounds like a great deal! I love the Wave but it sounds like the 4.3 would even be better. Please email me info at info@sail-s.com. Thanks! Has the Mystere Co. had any experience with the 4.3 competing against the Dragon? Even so the 4.3 is less expense than the Dragon ($5,495 with spin).
_
(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.
(primarily trailer-launched suggestions)
Instead of disconnecting the tiller extension and stuffing it in the box, just bungee it in two places to the mast. this is enough to keep the rudders from swinging on the road. saves a minute or two on each end.
if you have an RF setup for your jib, I had good success this season with NOT taking the jib down to trailer. leave it furled (just ease the halyard tension to avoid shape deterioration) and cover it with one of those snorkel covers from murray's, which protects it from road wind and UV. bungee to the mast with sailties in a few places. saves 5 or 6 minutes on each end, but it does have the drawback of increasing the weight of the mast when stepping.
Why does Mystere International show a 3.7 on their web site, but not a 4.3? I see a 4.3, used, in the Catsailor classifieds.
GARY
GARY
If trailering a distance I've found a quick way to protect my transoms on my Hobie 14 is to leave the entire rudder system hooked up, I just remove the bolts that go through the bottom (connected to the boat) rudder casting- Leave the bottom castings and pins on the hulls, fold the rudders over each other, along the crossbar (wrap in large, old beach towel) with tiller along, bunji in a
bundle
and go. No worry about your rudders hanging out there and NO destructive stresses on your transoms! I have my Taipan trailer set up so the beach wheels serve as the rear trailer beam and cradles. The rear mast stand
plugs into
a socket at the rear of the trailer with one pin and holds wheels, rear of boat, and rear of mast. Just remove mast stand, slide/roll boat back, tie wheels off at shrouds and roll boat rest of the way off trailer, reverse for loading-
Kirt
Kirt Simmons
Taipan #159,
A
cat US 48
Hi Ed, I like the tone of your reply. You come across to me as a guy who is sincerely trying only to get more participation with no outside or hidden agenda. I can relate to that! I teach the adult sailing class each year at my local sailing club and give rules seminars and run a great race each year with my sailing and life partner, Carol. I do this to
give back
to sailing. Same goes for the volunteer hours (and hours and hours) that I put in this year to coordinate the Mystere boat order. I like Mystere because you get so much for your money and I'm Known to be frugal! I like all nearly all makes of boats but feel like I cannot afford most of them as I would rather fund an early retirement! Next week I will have a long talk with Yves Sansoucy, President of Mystere, while I am there about these issues to see what they are planning to help get more people into a starter cat. I will report on what I learn when I get back a week from tomorrow.
I'm sorry Mr. Sail-s but if you want me to help you out you need to identify yourself. I thought this forum was supposed to be for people who identified themselves so I am biased against someone who still uses a made-up name here, especially if they are asking for help. I'll be glad to help if I know who I am dealing with; is that fair?