Mike,
this is Gary Friesen. I am a Mystere sailor and the inventor of SoloRight.
I am sorry that you feel suspicious of sail-s. There really is no need to feel that way, particularly on this new forum which can track those who post messages.
You can find out who he is by clicking on his name, then clicking on
all posts by sail-s. You will see that several of his first posts are directly related to your concern in that he is happy that annymous posters will have a hard time trying to pull their pranks here on the new forum.
You will also find out that
sail-s" is actually Miles Moore and his web site is www.sail-s.com.
I think you two are going to like each other. You both are promoting the sport and the entry level as well.
Miles once was slated to buy a Taipan, but backed away for various reasons.
GARY
GARY
speaking as a (hardcore) racer in div 16 nahca,204 we all leave our sticks up, and take them down to go to regatta's every-other weekend. one or two of us go to wildwood every year many more would go, but it's too much money!
the time it takes to put your boat on a trailor is a silly reason not to go to a regatta, it lonly takes me 20 min from water to trailor and the more complicated boats take 30-40 min, during which time we all talk to eachother about, what else, how to sail better.
bottom line, wildwood costs to much, when you add in food, hotel (don't forget wife and kid), gas, spending money ect.
by the way I've heard nothing but good things about the regatta, but I would rather spend my allowance going to one of my own division regattas.(I would have to skip 2 of our events to attend wildwood) for money reasons
cheech
sorry Tim D in syracuse NY
![[Linked Image]](/forums/images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon}
<P ID=
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>Edited by cheech on 11/03/01 01:33 AM.
What other demographic/psycographic groups can we invite into
our
sport?
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What strategies do you think would work to rope in different kinds of people - - think about your favorite candidate 'new' group, or a group who isn't new but which you think you might know how to reach and excite more members to join their homologues in our community (sorry, homologues = fellow members of a segment) ...
Where do they shop, recreate, get news, give opinions (online?).
What kind of messsage do you think will find resonance (excitement; competition; fun; new friends; eternal youth; etc.)
Watch the ad campaigns in your daily life (since they're *()#^E% unavoidable anyway) and try to reverse-engineer them (ie take 'em apart in your mind to see how and why they work, and on whom) then see if they apply to our sport. See if the segment of the market they're aimed at might sail cats.
**People are vacationing closer to home now... a weekend catsailing is more vacation to me than a week in a (boatless) resort, in my actual literal experience.****
RICK, time to market Rick's place OUTSIDE our community a little. Hook up with a specialist in vacation RE and sell timeshares or something, if you're actually still considering selling that lovely place. (
Selling Paradise
can you really DO that?)
I'm asking all this because there's a lot of you guys out there, and, not to be too flattering here, but you're collectively and as individuals smarter and more creative than the average bears. With enough fairly good brains racking themselves for this kind of idea, we'll hopefully get a few dozen contributions, one of which just might get us some new blood.
Regards,
Ed Norris
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Special Subgroup to consider with any new group you suggest:
KIDS are recognized by marketing pro's as spending a significant fraction of the family's disposable income. Whatever demo-/psyco- graphic group you suggest, think about how to appeal to THAT group's kids, too, as a separate effort' also what to the grownups on behalf of their cods will work best on that group.
ie. Baby-boom echo kids are a BIG demographic. I
m guessing here the 'leading edge
is just getting old enough to be worth planning how to get their parents to buy 'em a boat that will do as a
kids cat
, new or used. (a
< 5.0 meter
like the 14's, Dragons, 4.3 Mystere, Waves hope-I-didn't-miss-your-pet-boat-no-offense-intended-yes-I-know-these-boats-aint-just-for-kiddies-your-results-may-vary-actual-california-mileagewillbelowerstuntdriveronclosedroaddon'ttrythisathome) Boomers value Education, personal development (responsibility, self confidence, self esteem, self reliance) etc. Telling them these things about catsailing's benefits for their kids is usefull. It wouldn't work on 20-30 yr old
thrill seekers
unless they have 8-12 yr old kids.
What do you tell the kids about sailing?? Who's got a kid out there who likes it and can tell us why the kid likes it???
What the kid expected before he tried it, and after?
Who's got a 'conversion' story.. reluctant kid with bad feelings or little interest who then tried it and loves it to pieces?
How'd you get that kid to try it?
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I am the pragmatic type. If anyone wants to really make a difference, individually, then here are some things that anyone could do:
1. Put together a boat order like I did early this year. You just let people know that you are coordinating an order, what the features of the boat are and why you are doing it, what the details are for ordering, etc. etc. You will need to find a delivery location and set a date and try to get the owners involved as much as possible. In our case, one new owner set up a website for us and continues to take care of that site on a volunteer basis
(see http:/
2. Volunteer to help an existing youth group or junior sailing class. There are several around my area and they love to have volunteer help, donated boats, or rides on cats, etc. If there are no groups in your area then contact Art Stevens of the U.S. Sailing multihull council and see how you can help him promote these things on a national level or bring his national efforts to your community.
3. Get your own suitable small cat and make it available for others to sail at local regattas. Until Carol and I travelled around the OCRA regattas with our Waves most racers had not even seen them, let alone sailed one. Then after trying ours, several people bought their own and/or came to the Nationals to race them.
These are things that anyone can do to make a difference directly and immediately. I recommend keeping a long term perspective to avoid burnout - if you realize in advance that some of it will be unpleasant then you can effectively manage to still enjoy the overall experience and realize that you have made a positive difference. Besides, it makes another way to rationalize adding to the fleet!
P.S. The use of the internet and e-mail makes #1 feasible - I would not have wanted to do that without e-mail! So anyone interested should have e-mail availability and make sure you let them know that they must regularly check it for messages!
I would focus on the mental shaping in a safe environment (water) aspect.
I found sailing to be very shaping. It teaches effectiveness (No time to argue needlessly in a race). Respect, for other sailors on the water (the old laws of seamanship, picking up a
swimmer
is more important than racing), Respect for the nature around you. The importance of preparation, before the race, etc etc etc.
Wouter
Wouter
Hi, I thought I would get my 2 cents in as well (since everyone else has:-). I bought a used Tornado 2 summers ago for $6000 Canadian, pretty close to $4000 US. I'm 35 yrs old and have sailed all my life. I'm reminded to be thankfull for Granpa's foresight in buying the beach lot all those years ago when reading about people's difficulties in accessing H2O.
To get to one of the points, I was EXTREMELY disappointed in the complete lack of sailing coverage on Canadian and U.S. tv during the Sydney olympics. If I'm not mistaken, there wasn't any. It was so bad here that neither of the two major Edmonton newspapers listed sailing results. I don't know if there is any way to influence tv coverage, but with all of the 24 hour sports networks out there, there has to be some way to raise the profile of the sport. Perhaps a mass email before a major event would have some impact? There seems to be lots going on in the world of sailing, but you would never know it by what gets covered in the media in this neck of the woods (could have something to do with the 10 months of winter I guess). I don't think the sport can grow if no one is aware of its existance.
Anyway, its back to work for me. Let me know if I'm out to lunch as far as watchiing sailing on tv, I don't get ESPN on Satelite.
Ed,
I've been thinking a good bit about how to market cat sailing to any particular target group. It's not going to work to staple a flyer to a tree on a mountain bike trail. Maybe some coverage in these genre focused magazines? (unlikely). I do think we can be smarter about marketing the regattas. I can't believe that a news company (television or newspaper) wouldn't want to run a story on the 180 high performance catamarans racing on Lake Hartwell in April! Give these guys footage, let them take footage, get an onboard camera (Heck, I'd do a nose-over just for the footage on that one!).
This doesn't finish the job however. There MUST be an organization, a number, a website, etc. that the news program / newspaper can refer to .... i.e.
If you are interested in learning more about this kind of sailing, call (864) 123-4567 or visit www.showmecatsailing.com
. This new organization should be strictly and simply motivated to bring new people into the sport - hook them up with volunteers across the country that will take people for free demo rides, online technical information, classes, etc. I’ll definitely sign up to give rides or work within such an organization – I bet there are quite a few more. All of Rick's efforts with catsailor.com are tremendous and it is a vast and irreplaceable community - but we need something simpler, focused, and unbiased for this kind of task. There's not much advertising dollar there to fund a site like that, so it would probably have to get funding from a larger organization or start it's own (again - unlikely). Just a thought.
[color]Jake
[color]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
[color]Hobie 18 (???)
re-reading my post - in no way did I mean to imply that catsailor.com is biased. I meant that it may not be a good idea for an organization like Performance or NAHCA to take over such a task. The representation will be more welcoming if it is not focused on a particular manufacturer or type of boat or event(s)
[color]Jake
[color]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
[color]Hobie 18 (???)
Sailing coverage, I think Virtual spectator is the only to be succesfull. We should create our own site with virtual spector and a few enthousiast recording the race developments. I know not easy at all but certaily easier than getting the big network to cover some sailing.
Maybe my next project
Wouter
I just happened to be flipping through the channels today and happened to catch
Ultimate Yachting
on ESPN at about 3:00pm PST. I was taken aback by the fact they were showing sailing during the daytime. I used to watch their America's Cup coverage, so I know they do cover sailing. Maybe this is an avenue the cat companies could explore.
It was a show highlighting about 4 events, mostly big boat stuff, but I could see people tuning into cat sailing a lot more than monoslug sailing (not that I'm biased or anything). Who wouldn't rather see a boat skimming at 20 knots with 2 people trapped out vs. an 80' slug with a crew of 12? Anyway, thought it was interesting to see sailing on ESPN, it seems like if they got wind of an event like the Worrell 1000 and put in some shots of casual sailors, it would help our cause.
Happy sailing, see you on the water!!
Kip
H16
Sorry most people on this forum know who I am as SAIL-S which is my web address of www.sail-s.com and my name is Miles Moore. Once again I am really interested in this boat you refer to as the college that (I run my programs off their beach) I work with are interested in getting a bunch of AFFORDABLE small cats so any info. you have would be greatly appreciated. Also does Mystere have a web address.
click here, Mike's other post; he's...
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this is a sailing-wide problem (not just cats), but might there be a way to drive down the cost of replacement sails? I say this for two reasons:
1. I personally know 4 people that are out of sailing because sails just cost too damned much. these are all guys I raced with in college. they graduated, bought used boats, raced a bit, but quickly became discouraged when they realized that to remain competitive they needed to spend thousands of dollars (in 3 of the 4 cases, more than they'd paid for the whole boat) on a new suit of sails. instead of investing in sails, they all bought powerboats.
2. I'm not about to run out and buy a powerboat, but I can say that THE reason I'm not racing is because I cannot afford new sails.
a contributing factor to #1 is that it's easier to pay $50 for a weekend's worth of runabout gas all season long than it is to chunk up a grand for new sails. (MM, yes this is a microchasmic example of my earlier post on how big money isn't spent the same way as small money). Might there be a way to establish a program for financing sails through certain lofts, or ideally through the dealer?
how about something like
sail insurance
.... pay $X per month, and establish that when your sails are blownout beyond certain preestablished parameters, you get new sails and pay a $250 deductible (yeah, numbers subject to adjustment)
a way-out development of this idea might be that the dealership services the sails seasonally to promote better sail care, and offers a purchaseable program akin to a warranty whereby sails that are blownout beyond certain preestablished parameters are replaced at a VERY reduced cost. I think this would benefit the dealerships by getting the customers back into the shop on a regular basis (hey, detroit's had success with this....) and the sailors would benefit through better long-term enjoyment of their purchase.
yeah, that needs some ironing-out, but you get the jist.
Hey!
I balked at first but then got to thinking about the idea...I LIKE IT!
I need to do a costing analysis and everyone runs through sails at different rates depending on their sailing style and the conditions under which they normally sail.
The concern I have is that people generally won't care for their sails if they know they have a guarantee on getting them replaced.
For example:
Hobie 18 sails-MAIN AND JIB Retail: $1130.00 (white)
Now, we can sell you a set of aftermarket sails that are VERY*** nice for: $945.00 (white) but they aren't class legal for racing in official NAHCA regattas.
On new sails we could offer a system where you buy them and if you trade them in within one year you get $800.00 credit toward a new set. If you trade them in within two years you get $650.00. Three years $500.00 and so on.
This would all be contingent on the sails being in the type of condition one would expect for this duration of use. People who sail year around or who repair, modify or damage the sails with stains or accidents where the sails were in the water for a long period of time would suffer a reduced valuation.
This is a risky operation to say the least for us. I'll have to give it some more thought but I think it might work. What do you think of a set up like this.
MM
(We're trying to make a difference!)
800 354-7245
Mark Michaelsen
www.sailingproshop.com
(800) 354-7245
The Escape Playcat is $3999 new.
http://www.escapesail.com/playcat.htm
I posted a separate NEW thread to avoid getting bogged down in this one.
Anybody have any experience with this boat?
Hobie 17
MISTER LUCKY
Hi,
My $.02 For what it's worth.
I like Mark's plan; I fear a true insurance scheme. Here's why:
insurance
is about risk management - - where we all pay a little bit so if a surprise injury or
loss
happens to one or a few of us, it's covered by the insurance premiums we've all payed to the company. Note, we all, combined together, pay *more* than the insurance company pays out for covered expenses. We pay for the poor guy who suffers an accident, we pay for all the costs of managing the insurance company's efforts on our behalf, we pay for the insurance company's profit, overhead, ineficiencies etc.
More important, we pay for something else - - Mark hinted at it - when people expect to be 'covered' they take correspondingly less care - - not all of us but enough of us to add to the bill we all pay together. Add in 'fraud' and abuse and that's quite a bill, but we're not done yet. When there's 'insurance money
around, people can afford to get into the market - - that's the whole purpose, right? So demand goes up - - what happens to price then?
More important than all of the above is this: insurance is for risk management - - unexpected events which surprise individuals, but which can be predicted in large groups. The whole group pays for the losses of a few. BUT SAIL WEAR ISN
T A SURPRISE! It's a predictable function of use and care, affecting the whole group. So the entire group of insured people would BY DEFINITION suffer loss, we'd EACH have to pay a premium that would BY NECESSITY be larger than our own expected cost to repair/replace our sails. Worse, the careless few would, as MM pointed out, be compensated by the frugal. OUCH!!!
Mark's plan, by comparison, is more a trade-in, easing a sailor's access to new or newer sails, by getting his old ones in the hands of sailors with progressively lower expectations. Let's you only pay for the part of the sail's life you use! So if you're a racer for whom perfection is important, you're gonna pay for the first year or less of a sail's life, and, sorry to say, probably the less demanding won't pay as much for the next 3 yrs as some racers will pay for the first year, meaining racers with a champagne taste in sails won't slake their Mylar thirst on a beer budget no matter how you slice it. But MM's plan eases access for all, so hey it sounds good for the sport. *SIGH* Another sport made more expensive by advertising. Eventualy, my fear is that only the proven successful racers will be able to get sponsorship enough to pay for top-end stuff, which will raise the bar high enough to exclude large numbers of 'gifted amateurs' from meaningfull, head-to-head competition, outside of the
Factory products only
classes.
Sounds like the exciting world of monoslug racing! Exceptions may apply. Your mileage may vary. Actual California Highway mileage will surely suck, since you'll be stuck in traffic anyway. Not to be taken internally. Always drink responsibly. Recent research by professor G. Carlin of the sanity institute has shown that saliva causes stomach cancer, but only when swallowed in small quantities over a period of years.
Regards,
Ed
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Ed,
After logging onto this forum following several days away, I was pleasantly surprised by how much great discussion your original post has generated. I decided to take a moment and recall the way in which I was drawn to the sport. I think that by pondering the question, “What worked for me?”, we may gain some insight that will help turn others on to catamaran sailing.
I’ve been active in the outdoors all my life. I am an avid bicyclist, backpacker, paddler, adventure seeker, environmental advocate, and owner of a sea kayak touring company. I’m 44 years old, married, and have three kids. I live near the shores of Lake Champlain in Burlington, Vermont. My wife is from New Jersey and my in-laws live at the “shore” with a couple of powerboats at the dock. They know that their “environmentalist” son-in-law doesn’t like the powerboat scene, so they bought a Hobie 16 for a few hundred dollars to give us something to play with when we visit.
While I'm not stranger to the sea, I knew nothing about sailing, having only taken one ride on a 24-foot mono-slug years before. Fortunately, the Hobie came with a couple of books on sailing beach cats. I didn’t have time to read them before my first outing, though. My father-in-law and I rigged the boat as best as we could figure, and headed out onto Barnegat Bay. We were absolutely clueless, but we were able to make it go. Soon there was spray flying and the windward hull was lifting. We fumbled our way to the trapeze wires. Yee Haw! We didn’t know enough to watch the leeward bow, though. ![[Linked Image]](/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon}
It dropped below the surface on a reach and we were both airborne – our first trip around the forestay following a violent pitchpole. I was hooked!
It was only a matter of time before my wife and I bought our own boat. I stumbled across the catsailor.com web site and linked to news about the Worrell 1000. The N6.0’s were dominating. I didn’t look any further. The race up the east coast appealed to my sense of adventure and I was going to buy the boat that Randy Smyth was sailing. I found a used ’96 6.0 in the Spring of ’99 when everyone was trading up to the Inter boats.
For the first few months of sailing on Lake Champlain, my wife and I trailered and rigged. Be both felt like we were spending too much time doing things other than sailing. Then we found a spot on the beach at a local sailing school. One hundred seventy-five dollars for the season. We’re there. The rest of the beach is occupied by 5.8’s and a few old Hobies. Wednesday night regattas at 6 pm draw four to six boats for some fun around the buoys. Michele and I were intimidated at first by the thought of competition. I had this “guy thing” going. I knew that I owned a fast boat but I didn’t want to admit to the others on the beach that I knew nothing about racing. The other sailors were very friendly, supportive, and encouraging, though. This summer we joined in with the Wednesday night regattas. On our first race, we had a terrible start (I wasn’t wearing a watch and hadn’t figured out the countdown sequence yet), but we wound up finishing in the middle of the fleet. We looked forward to Wednesdays for the rest of the summer, and now that the snows have begun to fly, we can’t wait to wet the hulls again next summer.
So, what can I conclude from my own experience?
Is cat sailing more appealing to the younger sailor?
Maybe, but I’d be willing to guess that cat sailing has an appeal to a much broader range than the 20-30 group.
What is the best starter boat?
If my in-laws hadn’t picked up that used Hobie for $300, I may have been doing something entirely different with my free time these days. The abundance of cheap used boats provides a great way for novice sailors to test the water without breaking the bank. No doubt that there may be a niche for the $3000 starter boat, but my initiation was served quite well by that $300 H16 (trailer included).
How does media coverage influence our buying?
For me, it was the Worrell 1000 that was getting the most press in the cat world when I was ready to buy. Those images of N6.0’s airborne off the wave crests while rounding Cape Hatteras didn’t frighten me off. I wanted to be there, and I wanted the boat that they had.
How about access?
If trailering were the only option, I’d probably still sail, but not nearly as often. As it is now, I have a 15 minute drive to the beach. I pull off the cover, drop in the boards, raise the sails, and back the boat a few feet to the water. Once we found the cheap beach space at the local sailing school, we were sailing at least twice a week.
How much does the presence of a local fleet enhance the sailing experience?
We were having great fun ripping it up on the lake by ourselves. I never would have guessed that fleet outings or racing would have added so much to our enjoyment. My wife worried that my competitiveness would take the fun out of things if we joined the local regattas. Not so. Every time the countdown sequence begins, we both get a rush of adrenaline. It’s competitive, yes. Fun? You bet! The more boats the better. Bringing others into the sport is not just about turning others on to something that we enjoy. With more sailors in the regattas we all have more fun.
How about support and encouragement from the cat sailing community?
The group of folks whose boats share the beach with mine have been invaluable in building my enthusiasm for the sport. This forum has been equally supportive. (BTW, I’ve found the discussions on the “New” forum to be much friendlier than some of those in the “Old” venue.)
How do we get kids excited about sailing cats?
My kids are very athletic, but they were initially frightened by the speed and constant dousings they experienced while hanging on to the hiking straps on our 6.0. Things happen a bit too quickly and there are too many lines to stay clear of on that boat. Granted, Michele and I were guilty of taking them out when conditions were right for double-trapped, hull-flying fun. Our kids didn’t see it that way, though. Fortunately, our local community sailing center has a fleet of plastic Escapes and the kids love them. They now want their own boat, but one that goes faster than the floating bathtubs. The key to their enjoyment, I think, is not going out for a wild ride while mommy and daddy sail the boat. They want to get their hands on the tiller and sheets. (Do I see a search for a used Wave or similar boat coming in the near future?)
One final thought:
Every year my wife and I take the kids to the Banff Film Festival. It is a collection of the “Best Of” outdoor films for the year. The films go on “tour” to venues across the US and Canada, including a stop here in Burlington, Vermont. The cinematography is first rate and the films include a lot of great footage that typically features mountain biking, alpine skiing, boarding, paragliding, climbing, etc. My kids come home after each year’s event and grab their gear to try and emulate what they’ve seen. (I come home juiced up, too, ready to try something new.) I’m not sure how to make it happen, but cat sailing needs to attract the same kind of filmmaking. While Rick’s series of instructional films are good learning tools, but we need to figure out how to get some real eye-popping action in front of those that haven’t seen what cat sailing is about. My hat is off to those who’ve succeeded in bringing increased media attention to the Worrell. I hope it grows. It was a big part of what got me hooked (and dictated my choice of boats).
I’m encouraged by the thought that has gone into this discussion. I hope we can keep the momentum going and bring the sport to a level that exceeds the popularity that was enjoyed in the 70’s and early 80’s.
Cheers,
![[Linked Image]](/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon}
Kevin Rose
N6.0na #215
Hi Kevin,
It's late here in LI, NY. Thanks, from me and I bet from a lot of catsailors for a wonderful post - - you took some thought and care to give us a valuable set of perspectives from your trip down memory lane. We've all got a lot of re-reading to do, conclusions to draw and action plans to discuss. Right now I'm too decked to think straight - - I just wanted to thank you immediately!
We go to Highgate Springs in early July. One year I drug my 5.0 up behind. Let's keep in touch; I'd love to yahoo a bit this spring; you, like anyone on this board, are always welcome on Great South Bay!
Thanks Again!
Ed Norris
(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.
yeah,
insurance
was the wrong word to use.
I did kinda guess you didn't really mean
insurance
per se.
I only spent so much effort (
went on a rant
) on that particular concept 'cause it's just the kind beguiling nonsense some flim-flam outfit would use to suck in a few victims and generally sc#$% up the market place. First it was life 'assurance' then health, then dental, collision, now pet health(now's a great time to be a veterinarian). Wherever these guys spread their business (
protection racket
) we end up paying more (
getting hosed
).
Gee, d'you reckon maybe you touched a nerve(
rattled the psycho's cage
), here or what? :-0
Ed Norris
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Hey, Mark!
Waddya think about a tie-in between your program and some of the sail lofts in our market?
Y'know, when /if casual sailors start thinking
Dealer
when their sails get the blame for this year's performance, there'd maybe even be room for a 'recut' segment of that business, eh? Or no?
Regards,
Ed
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Looks like they are getting close!, £1995 = $3500
![[Linked Image]](http://www.hobiecatcentre.co.uk/Catsy2.jpg)
I know we all seem to be die hard glass and carbon fans here but this has to be a good thing for the sport.
"The Hobie Catsy is designed to get Youth Sailors (ages 5-12) into catamarans, it has the buoyancy to take 20 stone ( 160 kgs) so it can happily accommodate and adult on the boat with a youngster when they are first starting out + there is plenty of space and buoyancy for as many as 4 kids.
The boat is rotomoulded polyethylene and is very tough; the rudder blades sit as the same depth as the keels so there are no worries about them getting damaged or having to lock them down. The boat is very light and easy to manoeuvre (only 72 kilos) on land as well as on the sea, 2 adults can easily lift it up the beach using the lifting handles. Once the mast is down the catsy can be easily car-topped without having to take it apart. The mast can be raised easily by one person and the whole boat can be rigged in 5 minutes. Once the youngsters are out on the water the boat is an excellent stable platform for learning on the mainsail which has no boom and is high cut will clear the sailors head in a gybe. Because of it's length the catsy tacks very easily. The boat has a simple centre mainsheet with just one rope to be adjusted by the helm and it can be steered either by a short tiller stick or just by moving the bar that connects the rudders."
http:/
Gareth