Tiger Worlds / Spring Fever Scheduling?

Jake, I don't know exactly when the Tiger Worlds were first scheduled - I know it has been in the planning stages for well over two years. A lot of things go into the selection of the date - and it's usually one of the first things that's decided upon.

The fact that the charter boats for the worlds will be used at the Alter Cup probably had something to do with it, though.

Was it intentionally scheduled to conflict with Spring Fever? Please! Not everybody pays attention to when Easter weekend is - especially since it moves around every year. You imply some sort of malicious intent that just isn't there.

Is it unfortunate? - yes. Will some people choose one event over the other? - you betcha. How many Tigers will Spring Fever lose to the Worlds? Probably only a very few - maybe a half-dozen at the most. Santa Barbara is a long way from Georgia (almost 2,500 miles).

And just to set the record straight, the Hobie Class Association is running this event, not the Hobie Cat Company.

BTW, the Tiger NA's did not conflict with the F-18 NA's last year. The F-18's were July 6-9 and the Tiger NA's were the 19th-23rd. Admittedly they were close, but there were a few people that competed in both events.

The bottom line is that events will always have some conflict. People will have to choose which ones they want to or can afford to go to.

Personally, I would love to do the Tiger Worlds, but I won't be able to because I can't do that AND qualify for the 2006 Hobie 16 NA's AND go to the 2005 H-16 NA's (in Ventura and already pre-qualified) AND go to all the other regattas AND participate in my daughter's Bat Mitzvah (which killed my chance to go to the 16 Worlds in South Africa - since it's the day I would be flying back )

Sometimes, something's got to give.

Matt

Actually, the scheduling for the Multihull Championship was dictated by the Worlds, not vice versa. We even wanted to snug up closer to the Worlds date, but the host club is in Long Beach and the Grand Prix is going on the week we wanted. No hotels! Trafica grande! Que mala suerte!

Jake - I feel your pain. I'm going to Worlds because I've always wanted to do one, but this will be the first SF I've missed. Really wanted a shot at first place 4.3 to round out my trophy collection of second, third and fourth.

I noticed the conflict a coupld months ago, but there is no way I am missing Spring Fever.

As far as the conflict with the two events last year, it was the other way around.

Just to avoid potential conflicts I guess I'll go ahead and announce that the 2005 Formula 18 North Americans will be August 8-12, 2005 in Hampton, Virginia.
Tracie

you think the worlds will surpass Spring Fever? No way... 21 F18's last year, and at least 5 more locals this year,
Please(in your words) No one cares about Tigers or NACRA's(obvious from the poor support at PRW), its all about F18, yes, Formula racing. Not exactly what "Hobie" has in mind for themselves, but it is the reality.

David Mosley
F18

Dave...I just re-read Matts post. I didn't see anything about the Tiger worlds surpassing SF in attendance. (I expect it will). Matt simply explained how these conflicts happen particularly with a world event and the advanced planning required.

As for your HCA F'up...The suggestion that a Tiger world championship regatta should change dates that work for them to avoid a conflict with a local F18 regatta 2500 miles away is ridiculous.

I did a little more research - the Tiger Worlds date was set more than three years ago and has been published for at least a year and a half.

As of today, the date for the 2005 Spring Fever regatta is still not published. Not on this web site, not on the NAF18 site, not on the Division 9 site - not even on the Spring Fever site! And the HCA is the one who F'up? Come on!

Dave,

In sheer numbers of attendance, you're right - the Tiger Worlds won't exceed Spring Fever. That's not the point, though.

The level of competition in Santa Barbara will be incredibly high. Who among us can say they've been on a starting line with 50 Tigers? (or F18's for that matter). For me, it would be a way to take a big jump up the learning curve on a boat I've got less than 6 months experience with.

I agree that F18 is where it's at right now. I bought my Tiger primarily with the intent of sailing in F18 events (CRAM), but I like having the option of sailing one-design as well. There are areas of the country where Tigers are raced one-design (upstate NY and CA). That will grow as more and more Tigers make their way into the US. (Hobie US is to start making them in the next year or so.)

It's presumptious to project the situation in the SE United States to the rest of the country, or the rest of the world for that matter.

-=O=-

Matt, too much wine last night, I came off a little harsh, I apologize. SF is always Easter weekend, no need to post the date, we all know when it is.
I am angry at HCA for thier no "X" class ruling, it has now spilled over into NACRA Class(not allowing Hobie at PRW), and will further divide our fleets if we cant work this out. I dont foresee any Hobie Regatta at the local level turning anyone away. I can see they need a Nationals and worlds event that is all their own.
Okay, I apologize, now lets try to work together.
If SF has 25 F18's, that doesnt leave anyone but the Europeans and the boys from California and west coast. There are some really good teams on the East coast, so it is a shame there is a division.
How many west coast F18's are there? I rarely hear anything from them.

Dan, SF is obviously not a local event, it brings in more boats than any other cat regatta in the US, so yes it is a significant obstacle that should be planned around.
David Mosley
F18

Dave...I guess I shouldn't have used the term "local" to describe SF. I have driven 1000 miles to attend. It's a great event and no disrespect intended.

Apology accepted, Dave

Remember what I said about generalizations. I don't think the worlds organizers Steve Leo (California), David Brookes (Australia) or Lori Mohney (Michigan) have ever been to Spring Fever, nor do they necessarily associate it with Easter weekend.

There are a bunch of Tigers going to worlds from upstate NY and at least 2 from Detroit. My guess is that the truck that they've got going from NY to CA will be full (15 boats).

I think most of the Tigers in CA race one-design. I know a lot of the old-time 16 and 20 sailors have them now - Christensen, Alter, Delave, Newsome, Petron, Leo, Porter, Hitch - just to name a few.

Tommy - what the hell is "-=O=-"? BTW, you want to know what the other biggest regattas are? Ask Fluffy if you see her tonight at the Halloween party. She's got all the results. My guesses are Hobie MidWinters West, Madcatter, and MidAmericas

=-0-=

S'posed to be a trimaran!!!!

How about |-0-| ?

No-no!

|-0-| surely is a TIE fighter and not a Trimaran!

Funny - that's what I thought at first, too.

Gotta have them for the start line and crowded mark roundings!!!

First, I want to straighten out the timeline regarding the alleged scheduling conflict. The idea for a "Hobie Class World Championship" event was first discussed in August, 2000 during the Hobie 20 Continentals in Santa Barbara. The Santa Barbara Yacht Club (Larry Harteck) was very interested in hosting a Worlds. We started with small weekend regattas in the mid-90's which morphed into the North/South Challenge then California State Championships (NACRA, Prindle and Hobie combined). Then moving to the Alter Cup in 1998, the Hobie 20 Continentals in August, 2000 with the Tiger Worlds being officially awarded in February, 2003. The dates were chosen for two main reasons...first was European participation (boat transit times from Europe would interfere with their season if the Worlds were scheduled during summer/fall) and second was the availability of the beachside (venue) parking lot. This lot is used during the school year by Santa Barbara City College for student parking. The Worlds will be held during their spring break.

As far as the Spring Fever Regatta...Nigel puts on a great event (even though I personally don't like the "Mars Mud") and it will survive without Tiger participation for one year. Granted there will be a few Tiger owners who elect not to go to California for this premier event. But there is nothing more valuable (competition wise) than a Worlds experience. Tiger racers who are not thinking about going should re-consider. The logistics and cost of doing this kind of event in North America is one with the least amount of hassle (did a BYOB Tiger Worlds in Singapore in 2003). When was the last time you where at a one design event with 100 boats? It can only make you a better sailor.

The decisions to hold an event of this magnitude do not happen overnight. It has been years in the making and promises to be one of the best. See you all on the beach in SoCal in March.

John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI

Dave,

At last count there are about 2 dozen Tigers racing in California as one design with no need to join NAF18. I expect that number to increase between now and the Worlds. Not sure about how many other F18's there are in SoCal. I have heard of at least one NACRA. F18 fleet racing in SoCal will be a hard nut to crack unless other non-Tiger F18's start showing up.

Dan,

I consider the Spring Fever Regatta as a regional event not local.

John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI

Ok...I'll admit to being a little over-flammatory with my initial post but I persist that we need to work more closely together when it comes to scheduling events. There have been two fairly significant conflicts between F18 and Hobie Tiger events in the last year where a lack of communication for all involved is probably to blame. I think it shows great planning that the Tiger Worlds date has been selected for three years but how long has that date been available to other event organizers?

As for the comment that we will only loose 6 boats or so...that's a lot! We have been expecting to have a terrific turnout (and still are) of 20 to 30 F18s at Spring Fever but loosing 6 out of 30 is still a 20% reduction in attendance due to scheduling! We will undoubtedly still have a great F18 turnout but our sport needs to keep the competition on the water instead of between events for attendance.

Matt

I read in your post above that you bought the Tiger to sail in F18 and ONE-DESIGN. Which Tiger did you get - the one with the seams and tramp track in the hulls or the with lighter hulls and no tramp track and a faired bottom? And was the tramp in the track on the hull or the tramp with groments in the back or the tramp over the hull? Which mast spreaders did you get - the round ones or the wing ones? Which snuffer did you get - round end pole or hard mid-pole or soft mid-pole? Did you get the new lighter carbon boards or the old heaver ones? Did you get the self-tacker and the new jib or did you get no self- tacker and the different shaped jib? Did you get the spin with the rings or groments or with luff line? Which boom did you get - the lighter round one or the heaver square one? Which front beam did you get- the lighter one with no track or the heavier one with the track? Do you really think that someone sailing on a new Tiger with all the new upgrades does not have an advantage over a 2002 Tiger without the upgrades? This is not one design. One design means the same.

I really don't see the Tiger as ONE-DESIGN just because all the parts come from Hobie. The boat was made for F18 and should race under F18 rules.

Dave, Good Post.

I just noticed the title of your reply "Newsflash: Lk. Hartwell Not Center of Universe!" and the last line of the reply quoted above and realized that you totally missed the whole point of my post. In no way am I trying to say that Lake Hartwell, Spring Fever, or the SouthEast F18 sailors should be considered above and beyond what is happening elsewhere. When I pointed out the growth of F18 in the southeast, complete with examples, I meant to imply that this kind of growth should be an important consideration to a manufacturer and a manufacturer supported organization (like NAHCA). Hell, I'm trying to show an area ripe for improvement in which you guys can sell more boats! I would like nothing more than to see F18 continue to grow strongly...including Tigers.

I realize the Hobie Tiger 'one-design' and F18 support is a raw topic currently - yes, I've got my rather strong opinions regarding it. But what I am trying to point out here is that we need to look at how we can better communicate scheduling to avoid these kind of overlaps to the advantage of all. I don't know if the F18 decision makers knew of the date and location of the Tiger Worlds when they decided on the S.E. F18 Championship dates and location but I imagine that if they had, it would have factored into the decision. Maybe I'm being presumptious again but a great turnout of F18 boats at a large F18 event a good thing for Hobie too (especially since they are the predominant boat) - right?

Dave’s post certainly does drive home the difficulty that the Hobie Class Association has with the Hobie Tiger and fitting it into it’s organization comfortably. It may be better to characterize this as Tiger Class Racing rather than Tiger One-Design racing.

You would likely be interested to know that the Hobie Class Association is working hard to resolve the issue of Tigers One Design / F18 rules. It has been a difficult balance thus far.

Hobie Tiger Rules Discussion

I would say most are leaning towards making the Tiger rules follow more closely with F18, but with some tighter controls over how often changes can be made. One current example of the F18 rule problems are the new STX sails used at the F18 Worlds this year. Most Tiger teams will not have had a chance to use them before the Tiger Worlds next spring… so they will likely not be permitted. That decision is not official, but it is the only one that would likely be fair to all teams. If strict F18 rules were in place, those sails would be legal. Recent Tiger buyers would have to buy yet another sail to compete at the Worlds and some will not have sailed their existing sails much let alone the new ones. This is what we call the “arms race”. This is something that the Hobie Class has always tried to avoid. It actually turns off many sailors… certainly the ones with less than large sailing budgets.

I know some people think there shouldn’t even be Tiger-Only racing…maybe there should only be F18 racing. Closed Class events or manufacturer events are COMPLETELY the norm in sailing (let alone just about any other activity you can think of). Hobie Tiger racing is strong World Wide… and a strong Hobie Tiger Class is good for F18 racing… not bad.

I read the post and the postings at the link and I can't help noticing some weird twists in the reasoning.

-1- It appears that some sailors invent some movement of "goal posts" in order to give more weight to their (emotional) opinion. This is not very convincing guys !

-2- Then there seems to be the pfenomemon of inventing problems and then attributing it too the F18 class. I gives as example "One current example of the F18 rule problems are the new STX sails used at the F18 Worlds this year". This is simply not a problem under F18 rules. The problem only arises in the Hobie tiger class where earlier limits have forced everybody to pre-STX sails. This is classic example of a rule that gives rise to problems rather then solving them. Please read on to point 3

-3- There also seems to be the believe that strict rules on sail design make racing more fair. How many times has this been disproven in ohhh A-cat class, Tornado class, F18 class and a host of other classes. It seems that rather having such strict rules leads to unfairness; it has a build in unfairness when a decision is made to allow a new design to replace the (enforced) outdated design. If the class had allowed the sail to gradually improve with each year their wouldn't be such a sharp inequality, only small ones. Which of the two is more fair ?

-4- There also seem to be a believe that having a NEW sail design is magical. How many times I've seen the better crew with standard sails win is beyond counting. Top of the line gear helps but only for about 1 % overall. The other 99 % is still very much sailor related. Afterall, who were sailing with the special new cloth at the olympics ? and did these 3 crews end up in the final results. What was the Olympic champion using ? I rest my case. Ohh one more thing we saw the very same thing the the past ICCT.

-5- Then I notes a persistant, yet unfounded, habit to call any allowance for freedom an arms race and suggest that this "actually turns off many sailors". Mr Miller I'm not sure if you have noticed by the F18 worlds have no attracted about 150 boats and 300 crews (cut-oof limits) for several years in a row now and thus well in excess of the Tiger worlds. If such an F18 arms race is turns many sailors off then by God where do these 150 crews come from and those uncounted crews that were turned away failing to qualify. F18 is THEY succes story in catamaran racing since the Hobie 16's and now some tigers want us to believe that F18 is on its last legs due to "the arms race?"

-6- Then some more fairytail claims : "Closed Class events or manufacturer events are COMPLETELY the norm in sailing". Humm last time I check the catamaran scene was dominated by : Tornado (Open class event with open rules concerning sails), F18 (rest my case) , A-cats (an open class if there ever was one) and Hobie 16's (The only closed manufacture class of significance that is left).Then "let alone just about any other activity you can think of" Nascar = Open, Formula 1 = Open; Tennis = Open ; Golf = Open, Horse riding = open, Rowing = open; Skiing = open and so on and so on.

-7- "Hobie Tiger racing is strong World Wide… and a strong Hobie Tiger Class is good for F18 racing… not bad."
I think we discussed this claim before. Please forgive me when I give the latest installment.

2004 Dutch Championship Hobie : 22 H16's, 7 tigers (no big names what so ever), 2 FX-ones and that was it. (source : http://www.hobiehotnews.nl/uitslagen_nk_scheveningen.html )

And lets not forget to mention that 5 out of these 7 tigers WERE NOT TIGER OD COMPLIANT but rather were the F18 versions. The champion of the OD tiger class (only 2 boats) was determined with both boats scoring a DNC's in races 4 and 5. Only 3 out of 7 boat completed all of the 5 races

To pick just a fun distance race held around the same time : REM race 2004 => 17 tigers (with several big names) among 34 F18's. I'm sure the French and German Tigers do a little better but not by that much. The more this is looking like the mouse saying to elephant :"some loud noice we make, don't we ?". I know things are looking more impressive for you in US and AUS but even there F18 events are at least comparable in size if not larger. I maybe a big thing to accept but the F18 class couldn't care less what the Tiger class does or doesn't do. The impact on the F18 is neglectable no way how you look at it. Sure a good Tiger following could be good for the F18 class but this does not imply that a bad Tiger following is also bad for the F18 class. In some area's the one sidedness of this relationship is proven year after year.

I really don't understand the Tiger class. All your problems are of your own making; if you guys had just kept the Tiger as an F18 and organised for some Single manufacturer races than all these problems would never have existed. And if the arms race turns you off (unlike many others) than the Tiger design is simply not your thing. Stay with the Hobie 20, 18 or even Hobie 16. Don't give customers a false picture of what they can expect. F18 and strictly controlled Tiger OD racing using the same boat are an illusion. And as a matter of fact it was never anything different.

One more positive comment to Tiger sailors. Just sail your stock Tiger as good as you can and you may be surprised how competitive you can be. Get your head out of the boat, sail cleanly and forget about OD BS and scare tactics like arms races. On a spinnaker boat, skill and many hour of practice are more then ever the paths to high placings. Setting your kite 1 sec later than the competition and you will have dropped 10 mtrs back. This is often enough to let 1 or 2 boats pass you. 1 % extra boat speed is not going to make much difference if you consistantly need 1-3 seconds more per tack/gibe or hoist/drop.

Wouter

Matt Miller

I did not mean to pick on the Tiger only. I think the Nacra has also changed a lot on their boat also. The Tiger came over from Europe and things are a lot different over there and just starting to catch on over here in the states. I realize that the manufacturers want to have the fastest boat so they make changes on them a lot to stay competitive. I think changes also help sell boats and new parts. Here in the southeast a lot of us bought new F18's several years ago and are now selling them to other sailors in the area who could not afford new boats but want an F18. and then buying new boats building the fleet. It is hard to have different rules for the same boat. If you go to a F18 event and are under weight you need the small jib and spin (means buying more sails). Some have changed other things like tapered sheets, home-made snuffer, jib downhaul, etc., that don't fit both sets of rules and would need to be changed depending on the event. I am lucky because here in the southeast we mainly race F18. I hope we can all work together to build a great F18 class.

I did not think the STX sail had passed and become HCA approved yet. If it does pass it will only hurt the HCA class racing.

Tiger Class Racing is a bit of a joke. Proven by the fact that my 04 Tiger is already been changed and will be changed more in the near future. Does that mean I am not going to race when there are 10-15 boats racing near me, no, does that mean that I will not go to Santa Barbara for the Tiger Worlds,no, but I will show up and talk F18 up and try to enlighten the sailors that it is the way to go. It seems that North America is the only place that there is even a problem with this. Already our largest fleets are F18 and with luck and promotion all will be.

Save the One design label for the Hobie 16 and let the Tigers go F18.

On Spring Fever, It is an OK regatta, A GREAT PARTY, and all should try to get there at least once. THANK YOU NIGEL!!!

On NACRA F18 Nationals & Worlds, COME ON, we have all seen how that is going to play out. 4 boats at Tybee. This is some mythical event dreamed up so certain parties could say to someone (Tiger owners) you can't come here.

You have to face the fact that there is a Tiger class. (why it survives I don't understand. good marketing?) And it will draw a decent # of boats to certain events. There are also very few sailors that embrace the Tiger Class concept over F18 (IMHO)

Flame On!!

Tom

Tom,

First of all, NACRA offered to make their North Americans the North American F18 Championships for 2005, but with the proposal from Virginia Beach, withdrew the offer. The withdrawal was from the event organizer, not NACRA (Why bring the NAF18 North Americans to Traverse City again when Virginia wants to host the event?). NACRA invited NAF18 to their North Americans in 2002 (Traverse City) and 2003 (Pensacola Beach). I'm pretty sure you attended the 2003 NAF18 North Americans at NACRA's PRW in 2003. I don't recall ever getting an invitation from Hobie to host the NAF18 North Americans as part of their Continentals. I'm not holding my breath, but I am not flaming Hobie for not offering. I think NACRA should be applauded for being open to hosting NAF18 North Americans as part of their North American Championships. Don't even THINK that NACRA isn't embracing and inviting the F18s to its events...it has consistently supported NAF18. This has not been the case of any other manufacturer to date (other than a few hundred dollars in advertising). To accuse NACRA of excluding Tigers is wrong. NACRA's actions prove otherwise.

BTW, don't think that F18 attendance at PRW at Tybee is any indication of what will happen at Traverse City. Already, 16 NACRA F18s have indicated they will be at PRW in Traverse City in September 2005! This does not include any of the Australian teams and only one of the European teams. Both Europe and Australia have indicated they would bring a large group to the World Championships for the NACRA F18 in Traverse City next fall.

"I don't know if the F18 decision makers knew of the date and location of the Tiger Worlds when they decided on the S.E. F18 Championship dates and location but I imagine that if they had, it would have factored into the decision. "

Jake, to answer that question, it was known.
At least *I* knew.
I honestly did not expect people to get so touchy over it. But know I see that it *is* an issue.

SO,there is a fix for those of you wanting to attend both events. It can be changed -
If another club is interested in submitting a bid to host the Southern Area champs please do so as soon as possible.

Of course you realize that the handful of people here discussing this issue are only a few people in the cat sailing racing/community. There are many many more out there who do not even look at this forum who can not chime in and state their opinion on the scheduling.
Which makes me in turn wonder why a change at all should even be considered because of this thread.

But I want to say something else, WHY on earth would anyone pick on another group for taking on the tremendous responsibility and commitment of organizing and running a National, Continental, Regional or World event?

Please be happy that there are still people willing to take on such a effort. It has to start some where or it won't go any where.

Schedules are not going to perfect and they are not going to accommodate every one.

Tracie

I already posted this on that other thread about scheduling conflicts, but it may be more relevant on this thread:

First of all, it is not often that we have a World Championship in the United States, and when we do have one, I think everyone who has one of those boats (or can charter one) should be there. Nobody should have to think twice about whether they want to go to Spring Fever or to a Worlds. To me it is a no-brainer. Whether you sail a Tiger as a one-design or as an F18, you will get a major education by going to a World Championship. If we had a Tiger (and if we were a little younger), we would have already reserved a spot on that truck to take it to California. A Worlds is worth spending your whole regatta budget for the year. A regatta like Spring Fever is a lot of fun, but it is probably not going to do much to improve your racing skills, because you are sailing against the same people you ALWAYS sail against.

I'll bet even Nigel would like to be at that Tiger Worlds.

Another reason is that when we hold a World Championship here, we should show our support and enthusiasm by getting every live Tiger there. If people are coming from Europe and all over the world, certainly the U.S. boats and sailors can get there.

Second of all: Maybe some agency within US Sailing (the Multihull Council in the case of the beach cats) could have a rule like what ISAF has. ISAF requires that World Championships or other ISAF events submit their dates to ISAF by August 1st of the year preceding the event. (Unfortunately, they do not appear on the ISAF calendar until the actual year of the event.)

In the case of the United States, if major one-design championships (Nationals, North Americans, Midwinters, etc.) and also major multiple-class regattas like Madcatter and Spring Fever and Tradewinds, plus World and International events, could all be on a calendar by, for instance, August 1 of 2004, (and if those dates could be published during August), then all the other regattas could take that into consideration when planning their more local events for 2005. Most of the local and regional schedules are planned during the fall of the preceding year, so this would give them ample advance notice.

By announcing the major-event schedule in August, this gives the major-event organizers time to see whether there are any conflicts in scheduling of the big events so that adjustments can be made if necessary, before all the other schedules are established.

But I think scheduling conflicts are something that should be worked out by the affected event organizers and not mediated by some third party.

There are a small number of "major" beach-cat events, and most of those are already locked in on traditional dates, so it should be fairly easy to have a calendar of the following year's major events published in August of the preceding year.

When a specific class is planning to hold a World Championship in the United States, the organizers should try to plan their event dates so there is not a conflict with another of the "usual," prescheduled big events in the United States.

If the Tiger World Championship has been in the planning stages for three years, they should have been aware that there might be a scheduling conflict with Spring Fever, which attracts a lot of Tigers/F18s. HOWEVER, it is too late now to change the date for the Worlds, so it is up to Spring Fever, if they think it would be in their best interests to change their date.

Tracie,
You might consider the Tradewinds.., good wind, flat seas. And it is definitely south.
Rick