Les,
I want to point out some distinctions while reading all these posts regarding Hobie, NACRA and F18. Correct me if I'm wrong but PRW is NACRA's Nationals/North Americans. To me that means NACRA/INTER/PRINDLE (anything manufactured by Performance Catamarans) ONLY. No one with a Hobie or any other non-Performance boat in their right mind would show up. You would be turned away. The title of NACRA F18 Championship means NACRA F18's only, whether it's a Nationals or Worlds. But as soon as you invite or say anything about including F18 (generic) or NAF-18...you open the door to ALL F18's. This is what happened at PRW in 2003 but not in 2004. I think NACRA did that only as a response to the HCA's Hobie-only edict. That's another thread on this forum. I feel event organizers must be crystal clear in who they are inviting to sail. F18 or NAF18 to me means open to all F18's. Anything with a NACRA F18 title is NACRA only just like the Tiger "class" in Hobie only events. I agree with Tom about the Tiger "class". There is so much variation between Tigers that the definition of a "true" one design is in question. But as Wouter stated...get your head out of the boat and just sail it. You'd be surprised on how competitive you'd be. Mary is right on regarding the Worlds experience. If you are a Tiger owner...you'd be crazy not to take advantage of this "local" opportunity. For more info regarding the 2005 Tiger Worlds, check out www.hobieworlds.com.
John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Detroit, MI
I can think of two reasons.
Not enough money to attend an event on the other side of the map. (travel, hotel)
not enough time to attend the event. If you have to drive you'll need to plan for more days off, etc.
For us, Spring Fever is closer. You can camp, but we stay with people.
Believe me, I would love to participate in a World event. But there are circumstances that will hinder people from going. Are we going to sit at home that weekend because we can't go to the Worlds? No, we'll go to Spring Fever.
Tracie
Sorry. I was talking about people who have a choice and are trying to decide which event to go to. If you don't have a choice, that makes it easy.
I just think that everybody who CAN go, SHOULD try to go.
John,
You are absolutely correct, PRW is NACRA's North American Championships. In 2002, NACRA specifically invited the North American F18 Class Association to conduct the NAF18 North American Championships at Performance Race Week, and did so again in 2003. They had no need to invite the NAF18 Class to PRW 2004 because the NAF18 North American Championships were already held in Quebec in July. HCA's Hobie-only policy had nothing to do with it. NACRA was helping the NAF18 Class Association by hosting their North American Championships when it was apparent that the class needed someone to host the NA's. That is no longer the case.
It is interesting about your and Tom's comment about variation in Tigers and trying to stay up to date with the IF18 Class and be "one design" at the same time. I think that NACRA's approach to their NACRA F18 Class rules might be the correct approach, that from the beginning they have said they would follow the IF18 Rules and the boat would continue to be developed within the IF18 rules. Owners and potential owners were asked their view of this approach and were overwhelmingly in favor of the "Formula Rule" approach rather than "one design". The evolutionary changes are expected and most feel this is good for the class. Again, you are correct (as is Wouter) that the most improvement in performance will come from sailing the boat to it's potential, not in increased potential due to design changes within the Formula Rule.
Again, I think you are correct in advising people to compete in World Championships when possible, and anyone who passes up a chance to compete in the NACRA F18 World Championships in Traverse City, Michigan next September would be foolish. 
Tom
what happened to all the F18 sailors in your area when NJ hosted the F18 challenge on Labor day. It was in in back yard at a great club. There were more boats from division 9 than from the area. It was a 12 hour drive for us each way. You guys sure missed a great Regatta. You can read about it in this months NAF18 newsletter.
Dave - two words why you didn't get the upstate NY crowd at the Labor Day event:
The Outing
I'll let Tom explain exactly what that is. 
Hey Dave,
We have this get toghether on Labor Day weekend where we rent a beach, bring 6 kegs, 500 clams, music, grills and sail/party with our friends and families. After a season of racing every weekend it is a great wind down. Not to mention that our club hosted the 2004 H16 Continentals the week immediately afterward.
Personally I thought another major event over a holiday weekend was not a good idea, but just MHO.
Les
The variations are relatively minor, only material if you take the sum total of them over many years. I agre with Wouter that there is much more to be gainrd by learning to sail the boat correctly, i.e. tacks, gybes, starts, etc.
Perf Cats was on the right track in 03 when they allowed the full F18 class to participate. For I while I thought they were taking the high road, but eventually a few jaded people had to turn it into "it's my yard stay out!" It looked like they were going to be leaders but they to dropped the ball. As you may recall Doug Skidmore from Hobie showed up to that event.....I was in the middle of that and actually saw what transpired.
On 16 NACRA F18's at that Worlds-most of those will be local boats that never leave their area. In the 2.5 years I have been involved with F18 the only consistent traveller have been Matt S, the Batchelor boys and Mark Kennedy. There is nothing wrong with staying home, I am feeling more like that all the time, but how many boats from outside MI will really show? I find I want less to go to places that don't reciprocate and tdavel to my events. huh?
Not meant to start arguments just musings from someone frustrated with manufacturers and Class Assoc.
Discourse is heathy, EVEN if we don't agree!
I'll still buy you a beer when I see you all
This is in response to Mr. Lennard's questions regarding which Tiger did Matt get. Here are some points to consider regarding the Tiger one design definition.
Hull seams...who cares? It's personal preference whether YOU remove them or not. The factory is removing them now. One less thing to do.
Trampoline design...who cares? It does not aid or hinder performance. The loose tramp on top design is easier to manufacture. The tramp in hull is more asthetic.
Spreaders...who cares? The newer design makes it easier to adjust the rake. It does not aid or hinder performance.
Snuffers? You can have any type (homemade or factory) snuffer system as long as there is NO carbon in it. Again it is personal preference.
Foils...again it's personal preference. The design has not changed...only the materials. Besides the carbon ones are Gucci.
Self Tacker/Jib...who cares? That is a convienence item for the crew. It does not aid or hinder performance.
Spinnaker rings/grommets...personal preference detail again. It depends on YOUR choice of snuffer system.
Spinnaker luff line...that is again a personal preference detail.
Booms and Beams...who cares? It does not aid or hinder performance.
What matters? It's about SAME hull design (a Tiger hull is NOT the same design as a NACRA hull), SAME sail plan (there are design/construction differences between Hobie and NACRA...but the overall square footage is the same), SAME design foils (Hobie's are different than NACRA's) and SAME minimum boat weight (396 lbs). Those parameters keep the one design playing field level. In this context the Tiger (or NACRA) is one design. A lot of these extras, add-ons and changes are things that owners can do to trick-out their boat. It's all about personal preference. Tigers and NACRA's are different, but they both conform to the F18 box rule. That is the beauty of it all. Whether you sail one design or F18, it's boat for boat, head to head competition with NO corrected time. My Tiger is a few years old but it is just as competitive as the newer ones. May the BEST crew win!
John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI
John,
I agree with everything you said and wouldn't mind racing in the same atmosphere. However, you're moving farther away from 'one-design' and have made some sort of compromise that lies between true one-design and box rule. If it works for the Tiger class, that's fine, but just because the hull and board shape is the same, by definition, this does not make it a one-design class. By the time we've made all these compromises, why not simply adopt the F18 rule and apply it to the one-manufacturer class?
I think the ultimate solution (it was said above) is for each manufacturer of an F18 to commit to the fact that they are producing an F18 and let F18 rules apply. If the boat owners support it, have your own nationals or worlds but keep things simple by allowing all your customers (in this case, Tiger owners) to compete by aligning the measurement and rules with F18. This is such a simpler way to go.
I for one, would like to see all manufacturer nationals to be opened up to any F18 - They're building it for that purpose right? Why all the confusion? Showcase your product! Just look at the example Europe has provided - F18 is rockin!
The only argument that I've heard against going true box-rule F18 for individual manufacturer classes is that the sailors don't want an 'arms race'....has anyone seen that yet? Ever argument pro or con above indicates there's no significant competitive disadvantage to all the changes - so why resist the already existing rules?
Jake very well said and I agree.
John
I just don't think you should call it one design. What happens if the new STX sail is passed? Yes all the changes can be over come buy being a better sailor but when you get to the top level it does. Do you think the Sailors in the Olympics had old sails or old designs?
Tom
I wondered what happened to you guys.
Dave,
That is the "arms" race. I'm not crazy about the upcoming decision. I just bought a new main less than a year ago and now would have to lay out 2 more kilobucks for the STX? If money only grew on trees. The Tiger base platform (hulls/spars) has changed very little since it's original design back in the mid 90's. The sail plan has evolved from a pinhead to a square top. Now a "fatter" square top made of a different material is being proposed. That is a major change. The overall sail area is not changing but there is more horsepower being shifted to the top from the bottom. Does that make the boat more competitive? I don't know. Is the STX material lighter? Shouldn't matter...the boat still has to weigh in at or slightly above minimum.
John B.
I don't know guys... This round and around is getting old.
I think we should just forget the phrase Tiger "One-Design"...
Call this "Tiger Class Racing" and get on with it.
Even if the Tiger Class decides to adopt F18 rules 100%... there can still be "Tiger Class Racing" promoted by the Hobie Class Association.
Jake said - "I for one, would like to see all manufacturer nationals to be opened up to any F18"
Jake, you cannot expect the Hobie Class Association to open their Tiger Class Racing events to non-Hobies. It is their class mandate to "promote Hobie racing". These are not "manufacturer" events. These are Class Association events, supported by the manufacturers.
By the way, Hobie Cat Company has been supporting the NAF18 Class with some funds, advertising and factory team participation at events. Hobie Cat flew in two factory teams to the last NAF18 North Americans. At great expense, we flew in Mitch Booth and crew from Europe to do some seminars (for all sailors) and compete. I know that Doug had suggested to the NAF18 class that we would be interested in helping to host a major F18 event as well. Not sure where the class has gone with that though.
If F18 racing is to be successful in North America, it is up to the NAF18 Class Association and its sailors, not Hobie or Nacra or some other manufacturer. In Europe, they did it. Make it interesting and the manufacturers will come. You guys have to do it together as the NAF18 class. Enlist the HCA and NACRA classes and others to help.
Matt Miller wrote
If F18 racing is to be successful in North America, it is up to the NAF18 Class Association and its sailors, not Hobie or Nacra or some other manufacturer. In Europe, they did it. Make it interesting and the manufacturers will come. You guys have to do it together as the NAF18 class. Enlist the HCA and NACRA classes and others to help.
Well said Matt! The real question is how do you do this.
I think everyone has missed the fundamental problem.
If Hobie schedules two national events, EG a Nationals and a Midwinters plus one regional championship and Performance does the same and then the combined class association called the NAF18 schedules another 3 major national events…. All told... you are looking at 6 major events that someone expect s you and your boat to attend! Hell the Olympic guys don't do that much racing in this country! It’s gross over programming. Remember, Tracie pointed out that for most folks have time and money limits.
It seems to me that everyone needs to speak up and announce what they will and won't be able to do and how much they are willing to do and keep their commitments once you all reach a consensus. As Tom noted... If you are the only one traveling and your effort is not reciprocated... Forget about building for the future.... it does get old. IMO, Once peoples expectations are unmet... they are very wary of getting burned again by either running an event or driving great distances to participate in an event. You must avoid this outcome or you are screwed. Over programming regattas is not healthy! This is much easier said then done however. The 18HT fleet struggled to maintain the commitment to their national schedule. The Tornado fleet can't even get that level of organization going.
One suggestion: What if the Tiger and F18 leadership agreed on how many national events and where they would be held and then asks for real commitment from the racers.
One solution is to get all of the F18 racers to commit and vote for the events they plan to support by offering an early pre registration discount for a few weeks based on a sailor choosing to enter all regattas they plan to do on the draft regatta schedule. Commitment would require payment up front with your credit card. You will quickly know what kind of real support a particular event actually has. No more guessing or pleading by the regatta organizer. During this time, some regattas may drop off the schedule if they are not getting an appropriate level of support… you get your money back and a chance to go participate in another event on the now reduced schedule. The regatta management programs (EG the one CRAC now uses) make this very easy to do online and you instantly see who is going to what events and how many people are going. Transparency is a good thing! Regular registration and fees would run for a period after you have finalized your joint schedule since this gives the opportunity for the undecided voter (grin) to get off the fence and pick the events they want to do and pay for them up front. On site registration for any regatta would be allowed but they would pay a stiff premium. (Give the money to charity or a local junior sailing program in their name if you wish). If life takes a turn and you can’t make a regatta that you committed to and paid for. … you would get a partial refund of your money. I believe that once you have paid for the ticket… you make the ball game, no matter how threatening the weather looks.…. How many people fail to show up at the nationals after having paid their entry fee? If the dates are blocked out on your calendar are events that you have paid for… not just ones you would like to go to… …. You will move heaven and earth to make sure you will be able to go racing. IMO, everyone wins!
My two cents worth
Take Care
Mark
Matt,
I hear what you are saying, but look whats happening. F18's in the east are wanting to race in big fleets, something we havent seen since the H16. YOu say the manufacturer will listen, well they have to simply because we are buying thier product at a rate that hasnt been witnessed in 20 years. More new F18's hit my beach tonight, and yes one(brand new) was a Tiger. somebody better listen or they will lose on this buying frenzy. I think HCA and NACRA class associations should work some thing out on the F18, or its going to splinter away from both.
Just my Humble opinion as an F18 owner.
David Mosley
Matt and Mark,
You guys make some good points. However, economy of supply and demand says that if enough sailors show up to an event to support it, it survives. The question here is, however, if we concentrate those sailors and limit the events to create larger fleets, would it encourage more participation. Personally, I don't think so. I know when I was starting, I was looking for events nearby - not big events far away.
That being said, Matt makes a good point about communication and sailors working together to decide where they are going to attend. In this area, we've done that with email and it's worked out very well. We know where the big fleets are going to be and they seem to build upon themselves. Occasionally we manage to draw out the mothballed F18 just because we are going to have a large fleet at a local regatta. To further that tool, we have setup a forum on the new NAF18 website (just released) that is for polls and discussion relating to regatta attendence. This site has been active for a day so there's not a whole lot of discussion going on. Check it out at http://www.naf18.com