Tornado Sport rig on a P19

I have a P19 with the MX sails and jib pole. I would suggest you call Jay Glaser at Ullman sails. 949-675-6970
He is a great guy and is very generous with advice. You probably know about his experience with Tornados and P19's.
Greg

I rigged a friends P19MX with a Tornado chute. There are some differences. 1) How stiff is your boat. Harry uses a Nacra bow foil to stiffen his hulls up for what he percieved as high loads with the chute and the small diameters of the cross beams. This means that the pole is quite low and required the construction of a dolphin striker for his pole.

Mounting cleats on the curved front beam requires molding base plates.

The other issue is finding a good hard point to sheet the spin off of. I don't remember where he put the hard point in. The optimal place on the outboard sheer of the hull may have been dicey without going in and beefing it up there.

Prior to the spin, he had to replace his front cross beam because it cracked under the new loads (or just wear and tear)

The beams are NOT beefy on this boat and the chute does cause the bows to visibly pinch. He sleeved his replacement beam to beef it up for the chute loads.

IMO, downsizing the jib and using a self tacker would be a huge ease of use improvment in the boat but I suspect you will loose a lot of horsepower this way. Moreover, Smyth used the Woodie batten to increase the sail area up high on the main. A T main won't have this feature and you will be limited to the standard halyard hoist height.

The clearance under the boom could be minimal and be a real pain in the butt for a recreational sailor. You may have to have the foot of the sail shortened to fit the boat adding to your cost. You are probably better off keeping the smyth MX main.

The mast is raked back as far as you can go and still have the mast rotate. This extreme rake (for this mast base) occasionaly requires a good kick to have it rotate around.

The boat with the MX Rig (Slightly smaller jib due to the bow foil) and Tornado chute is really powered up! The helm is quite heavy under chute (Normal without the chute up down wind) I don't understand this but I think the foils are just not quite right here. There is minimal lee helm with the chute up flying a hull. The boat does creek though. Perhaps the smaller jib and main will help matters here. You really miss the extra width in chop and your rear foot strap at the transom is not back far enough. You will die if you don't get weight back on the boat in order to lift the bows with the chute pulling.

The big picture question is WHY are you investing the money and time in adding a self tacking jib and spin system here in what must be a 10 year old boat. Selling as is and trading up to an Inter 20 would solve many of your design problems.

Harry's reasoning was he had 3 mor years of use left in his MX main, Prices of Inter 20's had yet to fall into his price range and a bad economy had made upgrading his boat out of the question for him personally. His upgrade works but it probably cost him more then he anticipated in rigging and time I think the boat would sail better with the orginal jib on it down wind. I think the huge jib and spin on a narrow boat make the slot easy to close off. He has not survived a really big blow yet. All in All he is quite please with his modifications.. The jury on the beach is still out on performance. Robbie D's used chute still looks better then the new I20 chutes out of the box. This past weekends race got cancelled with the hurricane.

Have fun with your planning and building.
Mark

Hi Mark,
Thank you for taking the time to supply your personal involvement in a project that mirrors what I have in mind.

This is the type of input that I am looking for. "Structural" reasons why, or why not I should attempt the transformation.

In answer to some of your questions...the P19 is stiff. It is actually much closer to 5 years old, as opposed to 10. I have maintained it to very near showroom condition, although I must admit it has been sailed almost weekly "year round".

With regards to the loads, I know that Randy used to run a chute that was larger than a T-Chute on his P19. If I am correct, I believe the chute he now sells for the P19 is larger than the T-chute. I don't know if he beefed up his boat at all. I "played" around with a used chute that I got from a friend for a while. It was in the 400 sq. ft. range, and although it wasn't designed to reach like the newer chutes, I loaded it up a few times.

Anyway, when Robbie returns from Europe I will have intelligent questions to ask....thanks to posts like yours.

Why not get a I20?? WELL.......(Honest answer?) My wife raced on cats often (and for many years). She is excellent crew and loves to hit the Gulf double-trapped with "no particular place to go". (she burnt out of racing) In addition, she used to "freeze" when she raced. She now chooses "nicer" days.

What that leads up to is that I am a sailing addict and do a lot of solo sailing when the conditions don't meet my wife's criteria. LOL I thought that by putting a T-rig on my boat that I would have another option. I can handle the P19 in "most" conditions by myself and feel that a more powerful boat (like an I20) might keep me from sailing as often as I like.

Anyway, I'll keep investigating.

BTW I use the term "recreational sailor" with a grin when referring to myself. I just don't travel to race. lol

Dave

Thanks again

As someone who has one of Robbie's used chutes I would agree.

Dave, more power to ya. Just remember, you are not 10' wide. More is not always better.....Did I say that? LOL

Catman, I can't believe what you just wrote. You, of all people! I've never heard you make a reference to "less" in all the years I've known you. You are the "more" man.
Anyway, I will discuss the valuable information I have gathered off this forum with Robbie.

I am curious to know if the Tornados "beefed" anything up when they elected to go Tornado Sport, or just put the new sail package up and sailed away.

Someone correct me if I am wrong (and if I am, I apologize now) but I believe my P19MX has more sail area (main and jib) than the Tornado has. And, if my memory serves me correctly, several P19MXs are being sailed with chutes that are larger than the Tornados. My question is: Is it because the Tornado Sport package is so "efficient" the reason that the loads would be greater than a conventional setup? That is what I am having trouble understanding.

Dave

Nothing on the Tornado was reinforced or 'beefed' up when the new sailplan was introduced. You just added the bowsprit, changed the jib sheeting system and hoisted the sails.

Now, several broken masts later, Marstrøm has a new mast with thicker walls. Some teams also use a more solid Hobie extrusion. You can sail very well with the old mast, but have to take care not to break it when it's really 'honking'.

You have to remember that Gøran Marstrøm uses max allowed radii on the crossbeams on his Tornados. This makes the boats stiff, and you can not increase the profiles within the class rules. So there really is not that much you can beef up on the Tornado with regards to the platform.

There was some speculation about wether the support stays from the bowsprit to the bows would break the bows. But it looks fine up til now.

The Tornado class, Mitch Booth and several others did intensive testing before the 'sport' was launched. They experimented with a spi that was sheeted to the back beam (i.e. really large spi) which was really dangerous as you could not see anything to your leeward..

The sailarea on a Tornado is now app. 25 square meters, and about 20 ~ 25 square in the spi.