What is the point of collecting insurance info?

Uhhhh, YES? I mean NO! Well, it could be. Maybe its 3? <img src=

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Have them sign and stay out!

Clayton

If the race committee has the policy info it will prevent a skipper from denying another skipper the info. I had an impact with a H16 on port at the start 2 years ago at Spring Fever. He knew he was in the wrong but refused to give me is insurance info, stated I could sue him if I wished. I had $1,000 damage to the bow of my boat. I contacted the race committee and got no help, spoke to the offending skipper many times to no avail and in the end payed out of my pocket for the repairs. Port boat is always going to be found at fault unless rammed on purpose, no one would do that. In this case I hailed him repeatedly, he had fouled the 18 in front of me that didn't protest him and powered up right in my path in spite of being hailed. I had boats above and below me. Had he sat still or tacked off I would have cleared him no problem. He sailed no 360, he didn't retire from the race, and went on to win the event. I think the more info the committee has the better protected the sailors are from this type of incident. My 2 cents.

not a bad idea, collecting info. I'm quite sure there are a good portion of the boys down here who don't carry insurance, with no-one to say boo about it.

I have never been clear on why the race organizer should even REQUIRE people to sign something saying they have liability insurance. What does it have to do with the race organizer or race committee? It's an individual responsibility.

It would be nice to REMIND people that they should have such insurance, but if somebody hits another boat and damages it or kills somebody in a collision, isn't that solely the responsibility of the person who is guilty, if they were in the wrong?

Why does the race organizer/committee have to get involved and also be somehow responsible if they did not check every sailor and/or boat owner's certificate of insurance before allowing them to race?

I don't get the whole thing. <img src=

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/> It is a can of worms.

If anything, you could just add an additional disclaimer clause that says that they take sole responsibility for any damage to other boats or injury to other sailors, regardless of whether or not they have insurance, if they are found to be in the wrong, whether by a sailing jury or in a civil or criminal court.

So WindyHill F20

As I understand it. You did not protest him.

You did not have a protest hearing.

You did not ask US Sailing to start the process for disciplinary action since he lied about insurance and refused to take responsiblity for his actions.

You did not inform the next regattas that X lied about insurance and a US Sailing process had been started so he should not be allowed to compete.

Realize.... If US Sailing throws a sailor out of the game... any yacht club that allows the person to compete can also be tossed.

This is the system we have for enforcing a minimal set of behaviors.

If I am organizing the regatta... I DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN YOUR PERSONAL CRISIS. I don't see the regatta chair's job as one of enforcing proper behavior of the racers...

This sport is self policing... When a behavior of cheating is OK unless you get caught and then we just spin it as

pushing the rules

and so excuse the bad behavior.... we are all screwed!

Mary, are you thinking a no fault insurance application? Several states have gone to this type of coverage. Basically, no one is at fault and each party takes care of their damages. This is only used in auto coverage. The premiums are higher for coverage but you don't have to worry about uninsured/under insured.

No. I just think the race committee, organizer, club, whatever, should not be involved at any level, in terms of whether a sailor does or does not have insurance to protect himself in terms of liability. If you get into an accident with your boat, it's YOUR problem. PERIOD.

I agree with Mary on this..

My gripe is with Regatta organizers who take this on..

I don't have a problem waving a peice of paper that I write out that says... yes... i promise I have liability insurance... The club has no basis for rejecting my application.

The request for proof of insurance is likley part of what their insurance company requests... its just more hurdles to somebody going after their money.. It has no teeth. So who cares..

Now if the Insurance company wanted the club to use Notarized proof of insurance... That would be a real standard... and although a PIA... Even that would be OK..
Unneccesary... but OK...

I have a real problem with a club which wants to stick their nose in my personal crisis by collecting this info. As Mary says... Its MY PROBLEM.... I will deal with it... Thank you very much...

If you go to an area and race where 30% of the racers on the water do not have insurance, is it worth doing something about it to try and decrease that percentage? What if it were 75%?

Yes You should do something.

If the NOR says... MUST HAVE LIABILITY Coverage.

I would ask each person at registration... Do you have liabiltiy insurance? Yes or NO!

Make them LIE TO YOU....

Make it CLEAR TO THEM ... that this matters to the people running the regatta and the people in the regatta. Its not just a little white lie. So... Choose...

Lie to your friends and competitors or Do the right thing...

Now... if liability insurance coverage does not matter to you and your buddies and it does not matter to the Regatta organizers... ... Take it out of the NOR.... You don't have to insist on Liability.. . This is Mary's point of view. Hey.. Its not the regattas problem if you have an accident.

I'm confused...you're saying that the regatta organizers should urge people to have insurance because people should have insurance. However, to require proof of it is crossing the line?

I don't even know what side of the fence I'm on regarding this topic, just trying to understand what you are saying.

In the big picture, regatta organizers are providing a service to customers (the sailors). Should this service include some assurances that everyone competing has a reasonable amount of coverage should something go wrong?

Right! After sailing for umpteen zillion years with nobody ever mentioning insurance when you went to a regatta, I don't understand why it is suddenly such a big deal. Did something happen that caused this to all get started?

Mark,
I did protest him, there was a hearing, he was found to be at fault. I did not contact US Sailing. I was forced to quit racing to repair the boat. Have raced since. The offending skipper does not race regularly in my area so no need to warn others. Race commitee basically told me to shut up and get my boat repaired. They definately condoned the offending skippers abuse of this system, almost supported his decision to let me sue him. Had I turned this in to my insurance company they would have gone after him. Instead I sucked it up and payed for the repairs. I consider it a lesson learned.

I think that the reason that people are asking for it is to protect the organizers or race committee more than anything.

Organizers don't need to be

protected

if they are not involved in the first place by asking for proof of insurance.

I want to know who the paranoid person is who started this whole thing about insurance.

WindyHillF20..
I admire your restraint, I would flame the dude until there was no tomorrow.

what do you mean who started this thing about insurance? In that it is not worth discussing? I think proof of insurance will become required if people start acting like idiots.

I think the thing is this- we live in a society where everyone sues. Every sailor needs insurance so if there is a mistake and something bad- or VERY bad- happens then your entire wealth isn't put at risk. Imagine me making a mistake and causing someone to break an arm. They are a trial lawyer and decide to sue me because I have no insurance (I do though). Pain/suffering/etc. What if they don't have medical insurance and then require surgery to fix the arm? 20k and up. What if they are seriously injured and require long term care (now I am sure most policies wouldn't cover much of this anyway)?
The guy that sails in a regatta and doesn't have insurance and tries to walk away from their responsibility financially is the lowest POS I can imagine and deserves to be banned from the water EVERYWHERE, whether it be recreation or racing. Let them rot in hell...
If someone has enough financial liquidity to absorb the cost of damaging someone's boat or body then so be it but they still need to be responsible.

I'm not sure I agree with you, Mary. It is incumbent upon the organizers to do their best to provide a safe event for the participants, and this would be part of their diligence.

I'd be willing to bet there are some enterprising attorneys who will claim the organizers were negligent in allowing uninsured boaters out on the course

I would not like to be hit by someone without insurance, especially if someone ended up hurt.

Should the PRO require certificates of insurance for all participants? In an anal retentive world, yes.

In reality, if the NOR requires participants carry $100,000 in liability coverage, and the sailors sign the registration attesting to that fact, perhaps that is better than nothing.

With as much litigation as there is in the US, it would seem like a no-brainer. Besides, liability only policies (they don't cover theft or damage to your boat, but cover your liability towards injury or damage to someone else's boat) are CHEAP (like $100 per year?)

Gonna have to disagree here, too. Don't tell me that someone won't try to blame this on the organizers, because the accident wouldn't have occurred had there been no regatta.

I agree that what the sailors do on the course should be ultimately between them, but I don't think they'd leave it at that and not drag the organizers into the fray.....

So, in other threads it was asked

How to grow our sport?

. After reading this thread its no wonder anyone would want to start to race. As somone who is average in their racing skills I am/would be hesitant to get on the race course. And it has happened, you are trying to sail to the best of your ability and happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Next thing you know you are getting sued because you're a

C

class racer in a mixed fleet of

A

sailors. Not my idea of fun. Your first knee jerk reaction would be

learn the rules or stay off the course!!!

. For people with nothing else to do that is great, for casual sailors we'll end up not on the course.

I really couldn't agree more. I've said this before, C fleet sailors shouldn't be forced to race with or against A fleet sailors. Its a recipe for disaster. I am at best C fleet and happy to be such. But, bring your stuff to the ocean with 20kts and I'll have you for lunch!!

If an 80 year old woman can spill a hot cup of coffee in her lap while trying to drive and turn it into a successful lawsuit to the tune of 20 million dollars against Mc Donald’s you better believe everyone is a target.

Regards,
Bob

Hmmm... I would have no hesitation in passing his info onto my insurance company and let them go chase the bugger. Probably wouldn't bother with the US sailing bit though.

Tiger Mike

I did not mean who started it on the forum. I meant who started it as far as requiring it for regattas. It is a fairly recent thing.

Not at all. In my own little pond I can be at the front most weekends. On a national stage or a world level, I'm middle of the fleet at best. Being outclassed by these guys doesn't mean I cant race on the same track - more that when stuff is happening, I understand my own abilities and *stay out of the way*. More often than not I come out ahead of where I would have been anyway.

Having organized a few regattas though the insurance issue is interesting. I personally believe that all boats should be insured especially since the cost (here at least) is very small. On all of my NOR's I make it a condition in the

elegiblity of entry

section that all boats carry a certain level of liability insurance. Then on the entry form, right above where they sign, the words

by entering this regatta I certify that the boat on this entry carries (insert insurance cover here)........

Here in Australia insurance has been required at nearly all major (and minor) regattas for many years.

Tiger Mike

Aha! So it started in Australia?

Guess I do not understand the problem or question. Hobie Cat Class events have required proof of insurance for years. While the local events usually just require you to sign that you have insurance, the National Events have required proof of insurance for at least the last 17 years.

Caleb Tarleton

Hi Jake

I carry liablity insurance for ME.... not for the other people on the water.... Its my assets that I want to protect when I screw up big time.

So... I don't want the regatta to get involved at all... Just like Mary's position.

If you injure me... I have Property insurance that takes on... sueing your butt to get the money they paid to me back from your hide.

It works out that if you have insurance... they work it out and you and I do not have to do battle the next time we meet. If you don't have inurance... see you in court. I am just the witness... my company is after your money.

Now... Somebody decided that they should make it a requirment to go racing that you have liability insurance.. Who knows who or why.. Seems like a good idea at first glance... but not really.

I presume that they think that it takes some of the stress out of sailboat racing.... Not sure how.. but its a possiblity. About the only thing it does for me as a sailor is... it will take away the stress of

I won't have to sue you personally to have my losses covered

. If all you have is liablity coverage... you have to press the case to get your injury covered.. So.. I personally have to get your company to pay for my injuries... Or if you don't have insurance... I have to personally get you to pay me..

Now if I have property coverage... My insurance company will take on the job of getting their money back.. after they pay me off... So... I don't worry about you having liability insurance or not ... I paid for an insurance company to go after you... and get THEIR money back. As far as I am concerned... its your problem if you have adequate insurance or none at all.

The liablity coverage rule was probably included at the request of the clubs regatta liability insurrer... From their point of view... one more hurdle on the way to their piggy bank is good. I don't believe they insist on this... but I could be wrong. I don't think they can make you include it either.

At any event... If you think you want to include this. insurance rule... How do you plan to enforce it.
So far four options:

put it in the NOR... by signing registration you agree to follow the rules in the NOR. Make them LIE to you the regatta organizers and compeititors.

2) put it in the NOR ... insurance required... Raise the bar and have the sailor explicitly state Insurance through

You won't get a dime Inc

. Again. make them lie to your face. (This is how Tiger Mike runs a regatta) (unless its under oath... their lying to you just causes you to loose respect for them... not cash)

3) Something liek what Hobie Cat NA's require... showing proof of insurance.. So.. they have this CARNAC the Magnificent (aka Johnny Carson )character at registration.. who looks at the peice of paper you hand him.... Looks at you... looks at the paer again... pulls a drag... and says

YEAH... this is valid proof of insurance

... or ... NEAH.... this shall not pass muster... (How they hell do they know?) At any event... they give you the paper back... and take or reject your registration... (Swear to god... I got an emal from a racer about this issue who said... yeah... they took my husbands.. proof of insurance... they rejected mine... same company... go figure! haven't a clue what club was involved.).

4) The A Cat NA's are collecting Insurance and Policy Binder number on the entry form. Now they really raise the bar cause they have information in their possesion....

It is still ... Make the sailor lie to your face. Plus a CARNAC the Magnificent character.. Since the A cats don't ask for a notarized... legal type document. so what the hell... You won't get a dime Inc and policy number 0001 are good enough.

But now they have a pot load of issues to resolve.

Once you decide that as the regatta organizer.. You actually want to get in the middle of my personal crisis for god knows what reason ... You better have thought through all of the implications now that your are squarely in the middle of it.

Once the regatta has policy and binder info... Now What happens???.... All of those questions about the clubs policy should and have to be addressed.
Well, you can pray nothing bad happens or plan ahead.. (see how well it works for bush and cheney)

I draw the line here.... I Personally DON'T WANT the Regatta personel involved in my personal crisis at all... Collecting the info puts them in the middle of the [censored] kicking contest. Its my buisness.. stay the hell out of it.

As a regatta organizor... I would not want to have to sort all of this crap out either ...

As a competitor.. I resent that the club is getting in the middle of something they shouldn't.

Bottom line... I buy liability insurance to manage my financial exposure. I buy property insurance so I don't have to plan on suing some idiot.

I join US Sailing so I can take the lying SOB to the sailing authorities and have him barred from the next regatta... This is the right /wrong solution to the problem.. The clubs all belong to US Sailing and they agree to bar him from playing when the desicion is handed down once they are informed.

So... the penalty for lying is not being allowed to play the game anymnore.

The US Sailing prescriptions spell out the responsibility stuff.... Without the liablity rule imposed... Nothing really changes... If X refuses to take responsibility... I can take him up to US Sailing as well.

Even if X has liability insurance... he can tell his insurance company to tell you to take a hike... Then its HIS insurance company which decides toeither pay you off and drop his buisness or agree with him... and say... see you in court.

With respect to racing as a beginner...Tiger Mike had great advice... Know your limitations and don't go in to the fray until you are ready (skill wise). You will work your way up the skill ladder only by playing. Purchase liabilty insurance because you would be STUPID to not have it... EVEN IF YOU DON'T go racing. Purchase property insurance if you don't want to worry about the rest of the crap.

If you voluneteer to run a regatta... just go with the

Make them lie to my face plan

if you want any rule about liability at all (See Mary's point of view). (NOR states must have it etc etc ) ... You let the plaintiffs deal with their crap on their own.

Ah... the ugly details underneath the game we play.
Mark

Hi Caleb

So... is that show proof of insurance?
or collect proof of insurance?
or record proof of insurance information?

What's the standard of proof of insurance?
I have nice peice of paper .. graphcis etc from my company....

you won't get a dime Inc

with a policy number of 0001"

This would seem to work for Hobie Cat nationals. (Does this make any difference what's so ever) ...

NOW,.... when X hits Y... an X is wrong ... What does the regatta organizer do with the info they have. X won't accept responsibility... X won't give up any insurance info...

Now what happens?