what to get??

I will have to strongly agree with Trey on this one based on what I have seen first hand. Out of the 2, I would say that Robbie is the

Better Half

.

that's so gay

sorry i couldn't resist hehe

Good one.

Trey,

From posts earlier this year I remember that someone mentioned that you had just finished college ... that would lead me to believe you are much younger then me (maybe 25-30yrs). As you are most likely a much better sailor then I, I will not ask you to respect me as a better sailor but prove to you I am your more knowledgable elder ...

Robbie is the most experienced multihull sailor most of us know on both

Close Course

and

Open Course

sailing races ... he has sailed on more types of cats then anyone else I know ... knows the boats in&out ... and if you want to learn, you try to learn from the best ... didn't you train w/ Robbie? Why may I ask?

So ... You may have trained w/ Robbie and learned how to sail ... but it is obvious you don't KNOW Robbie and Jill ....you didn't learn the more important and harder lessons .... how to be a

Corinthin Sailor/Gentleman of Sports

. I would suggest the next time you have the pleasure of being in Robbie's presence .... just watch him, how he conducts himself, treats others, answers questions ... those are the more important lessons(of life)to be learned, son.

You are a

Champion

not just because you win the race ... but also because of how you conduct yourself ... and Robbie is a CHAMPION on and off the water ...

Sales Lesson from my Father: Never sell something that DOES NOT fit the application ... because when it fails, the customer will not be back but will take their business elsewhere .... Robbie and Jill have been in the multihull industry long enough that I'm quite sure they know and follow this philosophy, or else

Fun in the Sun

would have been out of business long ago ...

... so therefore I must ask you son, which one of us was making the ASSumptions ????

My apologies to you, MR Hips for this digression in your thread ... but what can you do w/ youngsters? ... and I stand by my advice, you should contact Robbie

Thanks, Andrew and Wouter for your posts ... Wouter, it is good to hear from you, as you were/are missed ...(but we will not admit to it) <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

Signed: a ol'Fart
HarryMurphey

I'm 6'6" 235lbs and drive an N20.

yea think thats the point tho

k, the

top top level

is somewhere i will not be, dunno you guys but the top top level guys are sailing as we speak!
just want to be sure that i create opportunity for myself to make a dent locally, regionally and at least have the opportunity to

have my day

at a bigger event or two. in my keelboat days, many of my competitors would obsess 'bout a few pounds, i never did, and in many cases excelled. to me sailing is 80% (people) management/crew, 15% equiptment, and 5% opportunity (luck)
2 boats eh? maybe, but which one first?
so your opinion is that my size/frame will for the most part, and during the leaning curve not affect my position in a F-16 class?. i do wonder as it becomes some 50% of the displacement (some cases) and there seems to be a 30% range! i used to be 0.5%.
believe me i am not intersted in excuses

Your arrogance knows no bounds, does it?

dude, i will do this for sure!
this thread is going way beyond anything i expected. honest advice, not just pump yer own ride! humm....

Hips,
I said earlier that I sail an N-20 and just got an A cat. Those 2 boats seem to fill the bill for me. The A could be swapped for a F-16 to singlehand if you wanted a chute(I love a chute). I like the A 'cause it's a development class and the N-20 isn't ,so best of both for me.A few of the F-16 guys seem to do alot more posturing than sailing and that sort of turned me off in my decision. Alot of good advice, and I'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you get.

Integrity is its own reward.
i will seek this

Robbie

and company out.
This is really excellent excellent excellent advice, your (pissing contest aside).
It is really unbelievable that i could learn so much in a few days, from interested parties across the board.
Dunno this Robbie fellow as yet, but do wonder if he would appreciate either side of this dispute

Robbie is the most experienced multihull sailor most of us know on both

Close Course

and

Open Course

sailing races ... he has sailed on more types of cats then anyone else I know ... knows the boats in&out ... and if you want to learn, you try to learn from the best ... didn't you train w/ Robbie? Why may I ask?

So ... You may have trained w/ Robbie and learned how to sail ... but it is obvious you don't KNOW Robbie and Jill ....you didn't learn the more important and harder lessons .... how to be a

Corinthin Sailor/Gentleman of Sports

. I would suggest the next time you have the pleasure of being in Robbie's presence .... just watch him, how he conducts himself, treats others, answers questions ... those are the more important lessons(of life)to be learned, son.

You are a

Champion

not just because you win the race ... but also because of how you conduct yourself ... and Robbie is a CHAMPION on and off the water ...

Sales Lesson from my Father: Never sell something that DOES NOT fit the application ... because when it fails, the customer will not be back but will take their business elsewhere .... Robbie and Jill have been in the multihull industry long enough that I'm quite sure they know and follow this philosophy, or else

Fun in the Sun

would have been out of business long ago ...

... so therefore I must ask you son, which one of us was making the ASSumptions ????

My apologies to you, MR Hips for this digression in your thread ... but what can you do w/ youngsters? ... and I stand by my advice, you should contact Robbie

Thanks, Andrew and Wouter for your posts ... Wouter, it is good to hear from you, as you were/are missed ...(but we will not admit to it) <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

Signed: a ol'Fart
HarryMurphey

Harry,
I think your being way to condescending to Trey.He's earned his stripes. What he said is spot on. I also think alot of Robbie, but a dealer is probably not the best place to get an unbiased opinion.
I think you and Trey should match race this out and if that doesn't work have a drinking contest.If all else fails a broken glass fisted Indian death match would solve it for sure.
Trey don't let any of this go to your big head, you still suck.Your sister's cute though.
Tawd
p.s. Hips, I don't think Robbie would give a rip.

'course i will check out some dealers, its part of the quest. ya gotta admit most dealers dont get praise like that. is he in love? (bf?) kidding! sometimes a good dealer is an excellent way to go. we'll see
trey's sister? 'sthat 'bout??

Undecided

You know what

true arrogance

is ???

NOT SIGNING YOUR POSTS ...

Are you that special because you are 6'6

/+250lbs ... sail a I20 ... do the Tybe ... and know Mary and Rick ????

I turned 52 on Dec 30th ... how old is Trey??? ... 25??? Also if I may point out, it was Trey that said I was making a

ASSumption

.... I do not take lightly being called an Idiot and A--hole. As this is the second time you have called me out ... and my skin will not be getting any thicker, I would like to suggest again that maybe you should take the time to review the Rules of Personal Conduct/Chivalry I referenced in my PM to you the last time when you called me an arrogant liar ...

....but until you apologize, and post w/ your correct name, let me get out my personal contacts and list you under ....

WEANIE,ANONYMOUS

To Mary&Rick and everyone else here, I apologize ... but I will not tolerate, and will defend my friends and myself anytime, anywhere ...especially from

ANONYMOUS WEANIES".

Harry Murphey

Having personally sought out the fun-in-the-sun folks' advise, I can tell you that they initially advised me about buying someone else's used boat as a really good deal and actually tried to help make it possible by trying to arrange a pick-up and transportation for me. They were so good in their efforts and advise that when the deal fell through I went with them for a new boat and have ended up with a great deal (once the boat finally arrives.)

Todd,

You are quite correct ... Robbie is such a gentleman he wouldn't give a hoot ... as I stated before, I can only wish and hope to be 1/2 the gentleman that Robbie is and I do have a looong way to go before I get there.

Trey,

I apologize for getting mad at you ... my goal was to give you the benefit of some hard-learned lessons from a slightly older point of view. And I'm a little jealous as I have never had the pleasure of a Robbie Daniels Training Session ... just a little here, a little there. Let's have a beer sometime ...

Todd and Trey ... if I can ask a favor ... could you please explain to your friend how insulting it is to the rest of us when he refuses to sign his posts as the great majority of us do here on the CatSailor Forum ... including both of you ...

... and Todd, the invite for a beer includes you too of course ... does Trey drink like you ... cause if he does I'm going to have to bring ALOT of beer ....

HarryMurphey

huh?

A) You are being very condescending.
B) I trained with Robbie b/c he's a great sailor. I also trained with JC, Nigel Pitt, and Mischa Heemskerk because they are also great sailors.
C) Just because you're older doesn't give you any right to talk down to me.
D) I made no personal comments about Robbie and Jill other than that they are boat dealers, and thus, that might have a slight influence on their opinions.
E) Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not your place to judge.
F) You don't know me, but many people in here do, and I'm sure they'll disagree with what you say about me.
G) If you want to take this to the race course or the flip-cup table, all you need to do is show up...
H) By the way you let internet banter get under your skin, it may seem to others that you need to chill out, harden up, and have a drink.

Like water off a duck's back, baby.

BrokenHips, I'll take you out on my N20 any day, and then I'll set you up with 1/2 dozen other high performance cats to try out, and then you make your decision. Sorry that so many of us here have sidetracked your search for the proper cat.

Signed,
Trey Brown
Nacra 20 1017
www.velocitysailing.com
Greenville, SC, USA

Shouldn't that be ...

Boooo

....

... now you got me spilling my beer from laughing .... d_mn it, where's that dish towel ...

Harry

brokenhips.. I hope you are happy... look what you have done! (hehe kidding). You can tell its winter and people miss sailing their cats!

I think the

pissing contest

should be settled with milk shots... see who can handle the most without tossing their cookies....

anonymous weanie - that was hilarious

Buzz off. You're stepping on my scary avatar monopoly...

BH-
Welcome and go sail some boats for comparison.

Then pick the group you want to sail with...

sorry...

I give- you win.

sidetracked? ya a bit, but i have rather enjoyed it. and am learning alot. good to know this is a passionate bunch. I can only hope to cause such a stir on the race course! your offer is very generous, will PM you with/for details when i get south, and we will get this party started!
yes it is winter, and i am w-o sailboat, first time since 1977!! and admit my leadmine

friends

piss me off at times, as do/did i them.
F-17 may be the best compromise at this point tho. (phat guy sails, singlehand) will need to do much training, need experience!! few hundred laps of Hutchison Island this winter is in order
-P-

When I made the transition from racing lead mines to cats, the most helpful book I found was Rick White's Catamaran Sailing for the 90's. It is still available through this web site at the online store, click top right here. There is a separate chapter on several different boats, and a separate chapter on spinnakers by one of the best, Randy Smythe. While you wait to find your new toy, I would recomend you get ahold of that book and read it thoroughly, twice.

The rules are the same as mono's, the physics are the same, but the apparent wind thing going downwind is going to blow your mind. The book will help you understand what is different and how to prepare for it. Do not get discouraged when the others leave you in their wakes, just bring them a beer after the racing is over and they will tell you how it's done. When you get to Florida come to some of the local regattas and look at the cats, talk to the sailors. That is the best way to shop.

timbo
good stuff, will read. i have learned a bit of the

apparent wind thing

on the ice, have hacked 'round on the ice in my youth, nothing serious but i remember it getting so far ahead i flipped the damn boat couple times (lose it trun wrong way if i remember). good times! much to learn for sure tho, thats another reason i need to do this oneup, to get out and practice

For the F17 you should go and see Mr BOB CURRY ... another excellent sailor ... I believe he lives in the Florida Panhandle near Pensacola/Fort Walton Beach/Panama City area. I'm sure that Tikki or some of the other sailors from Florida can provide you w/ information on how to contact Bob. I've only met him twice years ago when he was racing P19's ... he was working at Sabor(?) Sails at the time as a sail designer/maker ... I do still have my good ol' P19(MX), Bob has since sold his P19 awhile ago...

Guys, isn't Bob the current F17 Champion????

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
HarryMurphey
H18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX w/Spin, CRAC-Open Class
TripleThreat 43'Tri/Race crew

Best answer here is to just give it a try and see for yourself.

The second best answer is that in the F16 class we also mix 1-up and 2-up crews in the same racing fleet as the more boats there are on the starting line is more fun for everybody ! The scoring can be seperate but more often we have simply made only one final score listing of the mixed fleet.

Interestingly enough the mode of sailing (singlehanded or doublehanded) does not appear to hold any predictive value for the final result in the mix fleet racing. Even several of us ourselved didn't expect this situation at the beginning of the F16 class but over time we have found ample real life evidence that there is as good as no difference in

round-the-course

performance between a well sailed 2-up F16 and a well sailed 1-up F16. The weight difference can not get more pronounced then between a 150 kg 2-up crew and a 75 kg 1-up crew.

In the past with mixed spinnakerless designs the downwind leg was the downfall of the heavier crews. But with the spinnaker usage the onus has been seriously moved back towards sailing skill and away from an ideal crewweight.

Those numbers are of course truthful, but real racing has shown that these ratio's are not as important for overall performance as we may believe. That was the lesson that was learned. Apparently the real performance limit is found somewhere else. Lightweight is important in getting up to speed comparable to teh F18/F16 level but going beyond that speed requires solutions in a different area. Much like the sound barrier limited all early jet planes to subsonic speeds no matter how large their engine power were. I believe the limits faced by modern fast cat designs are energitic in basis such like angle of attack efficiencies but also the fact that to accelerate a given mass to a higher speed ever larger amounts of power are needed. And mass itself is a factor in all equations where often it is devided out by itself. Sort of like the fact that a heavy person falls just as quickly of a building as a lightweight asian female ! I believe it is these dependencies that keep F16's around the same performance over a rather larger range of crew weights.

But please don't take my word for it, just give it a try yourself and make your own comparisons. Just promise me that you'll give it a try and don't let anybody tell you that these are boats for midgets.

Regards,

Wouter

Wouter
thanks for the input and i will for sure try the F-16 and your observations re. results and ideal weight are duley noted. Goes back to my personal ratios, that sailing is 80% people(skill) 15% equiptment, and 5% opportunity(luck)

been a while since i threw one of those out a window! but ya, i understand that my size will limit me much less than initally precieved. and encouraged that the performance limits are more dynamic (input,skill and experiance) than just weight (displacement)
intersting size note, my family came to Canada in the '50's form ijsselstein, so as usual the dutch are to blame for my shortcomings! Thanks for the input

I would summ up thus, but I must declare that in the past I have owned the following

Dart 18
Hurricane 5.9 - 20 foot big 2 up cat with a kite
Inter 17 (slightly slower version oif the N17)
F16 (Current boat).

If you want to sail 2 up ONLY; get the biggest boat you can find; I assume US based so a Nacra 20 is the boat for you

If you mainly want to sail single handed, but want to sail 2 up sometimes (or visa versa) and want flexability of design, sail cut and setup, and don't mid doing some fiddling yourself once you learn to sail the boat soyou can have things where YOU want them; get an F16 of some sort and spec the sails

for the larget person

and so you get max power

If you want to sail only single handed then you really have 3 choices

1, F16 again (with the option to have sails cut for you
2, A class, again you have sails cut for you,l but NO Spi
3, F17, This boat is a one design boat, and you should be able to pull it around and right it with your weight.

I'm fairly light (70ish) kg and found I could not cart the Inter 17 around, or get it back most times from capsize, but you should have no problems with this.

If you have a fleet of one type close; it might be a good place to start.

My view, buy an F16 as you have the most options and a Spi!

Or maybe your tallcomings. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
When we had our motel in Key Largo, we had several Dutch people stay with us, and it seemed like all of them were very tall. One of them told me that the Dutch had to grow tall so they could see over the dikes. <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

why? are the lesbians taller in the Netherlands?