what to get??

congrats on the new boat! and thanks for the input, you seem one step ahead of me, encouraged by what you say tho, i am thinking along the same lines that you just did. N20 for a spell, and on to the next step. cool.
do you have 2 boats? or am i reading the post wrong? Did you look into the F17 class? I get it why you would get an A cat, just wonderin.
2 good N-20's in the classifieds? on this sight?

nice, i know that place. I can see it from work, across the bay. weekly race?

Timbo
ya i did say

prefer no crew

and i realize that the F-18 and the N-20, are 2 up. for sure. I take what you say 'bout the F-16 seriously tho, and yes i love big wind, big lakes, long distances, and the ocean. in Florida, my marina is only 2 miles from the Stuart inlet. I often go out to fish the flats off GBI, and know from experience (big wind and waves)that righting a 400# boat will be a real bitch. I realize too that orginized events and like minded people create opportunities to improve, and since i am new to this i will be looking for organized events that i can actually compete in. I have regular crew, but not good regular crew! (at least when it comes to cats, nor am i good yet).
What of the F-17? whatterya know bout them? if i need one plus one back up crew, it will still be much better than the 8 monkeys and 100 beers i tolerated on the Mumm! that was just for a wed night round the cans race. there is much to consider yet. I will want to go out for a sail on my own, just for the serenity of the mayham of it all, am i willing to give those opportunities up to have a boat i can race? not sure yet. but i do have a direction, and the F-17, and this N-20, albeit very different boats, seem a good starting point, and yes the F-16

A 230lbs person will NEVER be competitive in a class that has NO minimum crew weight rule. (F16)

For your weight, the only competitive options are really the N20 and F17 and I'm not even sure about the F17.

I'm 6'6" 235lbs and drive an N20.

What is the minimum crew weight in the F17, F18 and N20 classes?
For the F16, the minimum crew weight is defined in the rules as being able to right the boat (with a bag if neccesary me thinks). Not intending to start a rules discussion, but since you brought it up it would be nice to know how the other classes mentioned define min. crew weight. Lets not have personal antipathies sidetrack what is a pretty good thread.

About weight and racing. Unless one is aiming for the top-top level like the olympics, a little extra weight dont mean that much in F classes. In one designs where you can not adapt your sails, you are worse off. Anyway, like I have written serveral times before, weight is not all that important, it is just another excuse for not finishing off races as well as you think you deserve. Skill and time on the boat is far more important than weight when it comes to racing on local/national level. If one aims higher than that, loosing/gaining weight is part of the game.

Visiting local fleets, now that it has been established that there are some, sounds like excellent advice! Meet the sailors and check out the boats. Perhaps catch a ride or two on different boats, then think through what is most important. Being able to change configuration one/two up or go racing with high quality. Perhaps the answer is two boats <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

F17 will handle 230lbs+ just fine.

In single handlers, I guess, you have to decide if you want A-cat. A-cat is ultimate boat, if you once sailed it and liked it, there is no way you'd like anything else as much.

If you don't want price tag and extra care of A-cat then there is not much difference between F17 and F16.

F17 is big and powerful and heavy. F16 is subtle, powerful and light. Both are excellent boats, there is just little different twist; you get to choose what you like most.

I’d look at local scene and see if there is any local class racing.

I do strongly recommend having a ride on “big and heavy” boats prior to purchase.(N20, F18, F17) It may surprise you how much power you are getting with the boats. You may like it, or you may want something more subtle….

Anyway, welcome to the dark side….

Now those are such unsubstaniated statements as to be a load of old bol****s. In truth most middle age guys are pushing 200lbs particularly anyone around 6ft. 230lbs is not big on modern day standards, certainly I'm around that weight with wetsuit and harness etc and guess what I recently won a very light air race in a F16 fleet, mind you as soon as the wind gets up where I should do well I do badly. The F16's are a rare breed, they are designed to carry two smaller bodies but will sail equally well with 1 fattie, push up and down the beach on your own ( try that with a N20 or F18 )can be as docile as you want but as sporty as there handicap which is the same as a F18.

Its horses for courses fellow sailors, if you want long distance power sailing then the two handed boats are the only options, if you want to safely go sailing on your ownsome( and that means launching, recovery from a splash, and boat yard hnadling ) then that leaves the A's and F16's. Why not the F17 / FX1, they unfortunately can't really be easily righted from a capsize when there's little wind, by one person, certainly they are nice boats but they are a two hander in reality.

Have you looked at the F16 Viper, its a F16 on steroids and should handle the extra weight well. Best of luck but you may have to think along the lines of owning two boats to acheive your goals. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

Well indeed the (modern hullshaped) F16's tops out in doublehanded mode at 160 kg max (350 lbs), F18's only go a little higher in the crew weight range (maybe 175 kg) but not by much. Of course for recreational sailing both boats carry close 200 kg and sail well.

Still the 2007 F16 global challenge champion has very comparable specs, so for 1-up sailing the F16 would actually be a rather good fit. I used to be 203 lbs myself and I have yet to complain about power.

But I agree with Chums here, if you are looking for competitive 2-up sailing at your weight of 230 lbs then the biggest boat you can get will be the best, meaning I-20. That is unless you'll be sailing with a son of nephew below 18 years of age or indeed a very small wife/girlfriend.

So the decision will be largely inspired but type of sailing you will decide to do the most. 1-up or 2-up (in a competitive sense)

Personally I underscore the desire for a spinnaker fitted boat. If you are prepared to travel up the initial learning curve then spi sailing on a cat is heaps of fun ! Even on light winded days.

Wouter

Ask the F16 2007 global champion about this !

He is about the same length and weight as

Brokenships

; he did use a mainsail that was optimized for his weight and sailing style by Landenberger as the F16 class rules allow; a great equalizing ability of the F16 class rules.

And yes it was a big wind regatta that year (>20 knots winds) with short steep waves and the F16 fleet was combined doublehanded and singlehanded sailing. Against all predictions (by not F16 sailing people) ; a singlehanded F16 skipper won this event. He came close to repeating this feature in 2008.

Just to be clear about this aspect. Reality has shown different results than what some (entrenched) believes dictate.

Additionally, a singlehanded sailor will indeed NEVER be competitive in a doublehanded class that doesn't allow singlehanded use of the boat (I-20, F18). He will simply get protested out in any serious event. Same for a 1-up boat used in a 2-up manner (F17, A-cat). With respect to not having minimum weights I think the F17, A's and F16 are practically the same. The latter two not having any minimum crew weight regulations and the first only having a switch over weight from where onward you may use a larger spinnaker. Having a minimum weight on a modern singelhander like the F17, A's and F16's is pretty silly really; there is simply not that much performance difference between different skipper weights and the dependency over the range of weights is like a flat dome. The latter meaning that being to0 light is the same as being too heavy, you'll loose some performance to the mid range guys. Therefor the concept is fully selfregulating and no need for a minimum weight rule is encountered. Due to the ability to have you own optimized sails this range appears to be very wide in both the A-class and F16 class; think roughtly 60 to 100 kg (130-220 lbs). The spinnaker adding additional performance equalizing by shifting the downwind legs performance more to skills then ideal specs.

I think the other suggestions are all good (I-20, F18, F17, F16, A's) and brokenships will have an excellent boat in all of them. The right choice however being dictated by his expected use, local conditions and local fleets. Where the F16's main argument is the versatility (both 1-up and 2-up sailing are officially regulated and sanctioned) and ease of use and handling without sacrifizing any performance compared to the F18, F17 and A's. F17's having bigger and better fleets up north and the F18 being the best choice for 2-up racing, A's being the preferred choice for very competive 1-up fleets in USA and the I-20 being the preferred 2-up boat for his weight and for real distance racing.

A challenging choice when looking to find all desires met in one single boat !

Wouter

waynemarlow- is

bollocks

a considered a swear word?

230 lbs, no crew- I'd say you're too big for an A-cat. That leaves you with the F17 and the FXone. Probably better off with the F17 as they allow a big boy chute. Both of which can be righted with a bag easily by me at 160lbs, at 230lbs you should be able to right either one quite easily.

[quote=Undecided]A 230lbs person will NEVER be competitive in a class that has NO minimum crew weight rule. (F16)

For your weight, the only competitive options are really the N20 and F17 and I'm not even sure about the F17.

Mr. Undecided, Have YOU ever raced an F16 solo in good wind? Believe me, it is plenty powerful for a big guy in anything over 10 knots of wind. The flexibility of racing it solo or two up and the ability to right it solo is the strength of the class. Most of the

light

guys are overpowered in anything above 15 knots.

How'd you do last year at Tradewinds?

Timbo:

I have not. But then again, I don't like sailing solo, and I certainly couldn't find a midgit to sail with me on the F16. If he's solo on an F16, he MIGHT be competitive vs. the crewed boats with jibs that weight less than 300, but I doubt it.

Not very well at all. You know that. What does this have to do with anything being discussed?

BrokenHips,

good luck with your new boat (whichever it will be). I'm sure you'll have countless hours of fun with it (as long as stuff doesn't brake regularly).
I would say very serious racer tend to exagerate the weight issue and I'm sure there are some serious racers on this site. regarding your weight - I think you'll be fine with any boat mentioned here, my crew weighs 95kg and 65kg myself, we sail Hobie Dragoons because there are no other boats around here, those are 13ft boats, we are newbies but last year we came in 5th place out of 36 crews, I think our weight is much over what's reccommended for those little cats. I would say your weight is fine for any boat, serious racers (shiny cup type dudes) might say different, but as Rolf pointed out - experience will make a difference, not weight.

I don't think anyone ever mentioned the looks of the boats - probably not important at all to many, but it is to others - lots of satisfaction in having a fast ,great looking cat.
I would also look into the build quality of the boat, not just size, you should also enquire about that. Another thing well discussed here - weight of the cat - my rookie opinion on that is simple - don't worry about performance vs weight - I can tell you one thing for sure- a LIGHTWEIGHT cat will get you on the water more times than a heavier one, simple as that. It takes some motivation to push a 180kg cat down the beach, if one day you would like to go sailing but not that motivated - the 180kg boat may kill the motivation you had.

Enjoy your new cat, post some pics when you sail it.

Regards,

My point is I was two up on my F16 last year at least 350lbs on board, we had a great time, won the class. All this

Midget Crew

required talk is nonsense. It's a great platform, and unless you have raced it, I do not see how you can critiqe it, I have owned both Inter 20 and F 16. As I said earlier, if you are racing distance in a big ocean with good crew, get the Inter 20. If you are racing solo, even in big wind, get the F16 or F17.

Being

heavy

solo on the F16 is a blessing when it starts blowing and really doesn't slow you down much when it's not blowing. One bad tack or a bad startw will do hurt you much more. He said he doesn't like crew. So you tell him to get a two up boat and he's too big for a F16? Complete Nonsense.

And the Inter 20 can be a handfull even with two big guys, when it's blowing, right? That's what Tradewinds last year has to do with it.

There is no -one- perfect boat for every weight and wind condition, that's why I said we should all own at least 4-5 boats!
<img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

IIRC, I was the only N20 that had problems last year.

It was due to several factors, mostly my gross incompetence.

as for the solo/crewed comment - its good to know that he'll be competitve when the wind blows. How attractive.

I have sailed an F16 (Taipan) but not solo. If I was lighter, I would definitely look at the F16 as I think its a pretty cool little boat. I've gone on record as saying this in the past. As a bigger person, I have certain things that are unavailable to me. I don't fit in compact cars and even most new SUV's, I can't find shoes in my size in any shoe store, I have to go to certain stores to get clothes in the

big and tall

section, I hit my head on low door ways and staircases all the time, I can't sit in a standard airline passenger seat because my knees are literally 3

too long for the space allowed.... as a

big

person, its something that we've learned to live with. Somethings simply don't come in

large" sizes - high performance catamarans are no different.

If the guy was even 30lbs lighter, I'd probably recommend a F16.

Picture of my leg jammed into a 2008 Toyota Highlander. The wheel and center console were pinching my leg from both sides, and yes, the seat was all the way back.

Everything else aside, what is the min crew weight for the F(NACRA)17, F18 and NACRA20 classes?

325 is the min crew weight for the N20 IIRC. I don't really know as it will never apply to me.

Also

to be fair

about the N20. If you ARE considering this class, I would probably either go somewhere else, or wait until the whole mast issue is hammered out and what the results are in real life. I'm not looking forward to it at all tbh.

Hi Rolf - how did Santa treat you?

For the F18, minimum crew weight is 115 kg (253 lbs). There is no maximum, though there is a team here in SoCal that is about 410 lbs (186 kg) that led the country in points for 2008. Most teams in the US seem to cluster around 310 lbs (141 kg) to just barely make weight to carry the big sails with nearly maximum correctors, or around 340 lbs (154 kg) to avoid carrying any correctors at all.

I felt I was competitive under the small sailplan at 265 lbs (120 kg) with 5 kg of corrector weight. In 2009, I'll be sailing with a new crew member at about 142 kg.

Hi Guys,

I'm really enjoying this thread ... lots of excellent advice !!!

So I'm going to recommend not a boat but a person ....

Mr

Hips

I will suggest that you contact the finest and most experienced Multihull sailor most of us know ... MR ROBBIE DANIELS

Robbie is based out of Clearwater/Tampa Florida where his

better half

Jill Nickerson operates

Fun in the Sun

... they have advertizements here on CatSailor w/ Websites listed.

Robbie has sailed all the boats mentioned (and some not)... is ranked second in the US on Tornadoes ... is the current F18 US National Champion and is one of the kindest gentleman and best sailors you'll ever have the pleasure to meet.

So that's my recommendation, a person not a particular boat ... so contact Robbie through Jill and if you can make a trip to the Tampa area ... go talk w/ Robbie and see if you can get him to take you out for a sail.

And ... WELCOME TO THE

DARK SIDE

of sailing ...

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
HarryMurphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX w/Spin, CRAC/Open Class
43'Tri TripleThreat: Race Crew

Hmurphey, what do you think happens when you call a guy to recommend a boat, and that guy just happens to own a particular brand's dealership? Hmmmmm.........

Fortunately or unfortunately - looks like a used F16 just came on the market. check the classifieds...

Broken, There is some bigger A cat guys around. While 230 is going to be a stretch on any single handed cat there is some A cat designs that handle a heaver crew weight. There is a boat designed by Steve Clark and I believe there is a few of these around. Also the Mastrom is suitable for a bigger person and there are a few good ones around for sale a a good price. There is even one with a spin package available in Ft Lauderdale. The A cat class is alive well all over the USA with a great event schedule year round. http://www.usaca.info/

Trey,

Now you have upset me ... as you are selling Robbie (and Jill) short !!!!

While I don't get the pleasure of seeing them often, I have known them for many years. So, yes they do sell F18's currently... but Robbie is the finest Multihull sailor I know, is a true gentleman who has always been free w/ his hard-earned knowledge and given HONEST answers to questions when asked. You and I can only wish that we are as 1/2 a fine a sailor and gentleman as Robbie is on his worst day ... I have never seen Robbie utter a cross word or even raise his voice. Robbie is a true and HONEST Gentleman and always conducts himself as such.

... and from your statement it is obvious that you do not know Robbie or Jill very well, sir.

so ... Sir, you owe them an apology.

Robbie and Jill may call on me for help or borrow anything I have anytime ... anywhere ...

HarryMurphey

And you sir would be wrong, as I have trained with Robbie. I've got nothing bad to say about them, and I haven't said anything at all other than he's a dealer; I didn't even name the brand. So, please don't make ASSumptions.

The best answer brokenhips has gotten is to get out there and sail each boat until he finds the one he likes.

Actually..... more then sail each boat....

He needs to race each one to make an informed choice from where he is coming from because he is not just interested in a generic catamaran.

He might decide to pick a boat to warm up on prior to getting into the distance racing part of his plan.

YEA TREY! WATCH IT! THEM FIGHTING WORDS! (just kidding)...

but yes (in my experiences), Robby and Jill are great to talk to and learn from.. train with, sail against, purchase gear from... etc. Robbie was training people this last week and invited my pals to join in the moc race training just for fun... well fun for my friends, not the people paying to be trained...

Robbie sails and sells capricorns... they are amazing looking f-18's. I have raced against them (and lost) and i am sure John Williams would say they are great boats (as he just bought his second one)

I would expect Robbie to lean toward his own brand.. but i bet if it was not right for a person he would recommend the correct boat, even if he couldn't sell it to them

I feel a desire to seperate the Taipan 4.9 from the new purpose build F16's. I own a modified Taipan myself (homebuild) but raced the US Blade F16 owned by a friend several times. While the Taipan is an excellent design from the year 1987, the new purpose designed F16's do behave differently and have alot more space on the trampoline and carry high crew weights significantly better. Together my friend and I are just below 160 kg (355 lbs) and the Blade F16 carries this very well during racing.

I feel one can not regard the Taipan as a good showcase for the F16's anymore (as it was back in 2001/2002 and 2003) The newer designs have progressed significantly beyond that initial benchmark.

In fact it is very telling to put a new F16 next to a Hobie Tiger F18, you'll find that the bow length and tramp space as well as the beam locations are almost identical ! It is actually the stern section where the bulk of the size difference is concentrated.

This post is not intented to take away any of the advice given in this thread, just to correct a common stated misconception about the (non-Taipan based) F16's

The best advice I can give to mr. Broken to get on all the more promising boats a test ride; and find out for yourself. That can be very entlightening and most owners are very willing to take you out on there boats.

Regards,

Wouter

Aren't they also importing and selling the Viper F16's ?

(made by the same builder as the Capricorn F18)

Wouter

I think you are correct, also A-Cats... and some used boats.

MY advice to Mr Broken is sail on a few boats if you can and then purchase one... even if it isnt exactly correct.. you can sail on it for a season and sell it for your next one. I have found used cats keep their value well... (but this is on 10 year+ old boats)

I will have to strongly agree with Trey on this one based on what I have seen first hand. Out of the 2, I would say that Robbie is the

Better Half

.