when is the line crossed?

I may be wrong and hopefully I don't offend here, but I've always hoped that this forum should be able to help us cat sailors with such questions. A lot of the dealers I've been in contact with have pretty unrealistic ideas of what boats and parts are worth - don't get me wrong, some are great, but others haven't a clue. And in the end the true worth of something is what somebody is willing to pay. This is a great audience to ask those questions. I think we should be able to ask those questions here - what are boats/parts worth etc. I understand how such questions can get turned into ads themselves - the simple asking of what to ask for X alerts folks that you have one for sale. I'm not sure how to address that, but given the source of information this forum is, it's a shame we can't ask it here. Maybe the trick in that case to ask the question on a forum that does not have classifieds.

Dave, I am glad you asked this -- I was hoping that someone would, because I think it is something that should be debated among the forum users.

Personally, I figure if the ultimate purpose of the post, no matter how it is worded, is to sell something or buy something, that is the same thing as a classified ad.

I also do not personally think that it is fair to the people who DO pay for a classified ad, when others do not.

For something like this, I also this it is important to picture the extreme to which it can be carried.

I hope lots of people will give input on this thread.

By the way, I had Rick remove the whole original thread, because it was hard for people to understand what it was about after you removed the initial post.

I'm sorry about being sarcastic -- I've been that way all my life. It's my form of humor. I'll try to control myself.

Mary,
Why not start a separate forum for SOLD boats.
When someone sells a boat, they can post the description of the boat and equipment, age, etc. along with the selling price.
Maybe someone could compile the info to develop some type of 'Blue Book' on cats sales.
This would help buyers and sellers alike.
An idea, anyway.

Mary,
I agree with this: "if the ultimate purpose of the post, no matter how it is worded, is to sell something or buy something, that is the same thing as a classified ad."

However, the SPECIFIC purpose of that post appears to have been a pricing poll.

It's a blurry line. should he buy an ad from you? yeah I think he should. Even if he sells the boat through some contact unrelated to this forum, he'll have established his price based upon information gained here. BUT, if he'd simply purchased a normal ad, he wouldn't have had the opportunity for the pricing poll.

I think that threads of this type support (my understanding of) Catsailor's mission. Let's face it, buying/selling stuff is a HUGE part of being a sailor, and information on that is just as important as info on sailing technique. I don't think that anyone here is out to screw you or Rick. Most will gladly send you the posthumous cost of the would've-been-advertisement in such a case. I know I would. I posted to that effect when I entertained the thought of selling my boat last November.

I suggest that if these posts truly get out of hand and no one's sending you money and you can definitely see a dent in your classified ad revenue, THEN start deleting threads. I think this is one area where the community CAN police itself.

$0.02

scarcasm doesn't bother me. as far as buying an ad, you said that a classified on this web site is free, and that it is printed ads in the magazine that cost $10. again, i was not trying to advertise the boat for sale. assuming i was wanting to advertise the boat, the problem with posting an ad is that you have to know how much the boat is worth before you post the ad. as far as the ultimate purpose of the post, what if the ultimate purpose is to decide if you want to sell something?

one more question. since rick runs the site, what was or is his feeling regarding my original post?

I should clarify that the classifieds are placed free on the website when you buy an ad in the magazine. The website is a bonus for advertising in the mag. Classifieds are one of the primary sources of revenue to pay for putting out the magazine.

I don't care what people post on the forum or how they post it. That is up to Rick to decide, and I don't know whether he cares, either. I was just defending my magazine on behalf of my readers. If I have to stop putting it out because the revenue goes down (and it wouldn't take much of a drop), it won't hurt me -- in fact, I would probably live a few more years.

It would be nice if you guys could come up with some guidelines so everybody knows where the line is drawn. I sure have no idea how to do it.

I do know it is not realistic for people to pay after the fact for an ad they have not placed just because they bought or sold something due to information they received on the forum. And it would not be legal or ethical for me to take money from people for something they have not received.

The ultimate obviously would be for the forum users to be self-policing. You certainly don't have to worry about me ever saying anything again about something that looks like an ad. I will leave it up to you-all (and Rick, of course)

Hello Dave,

I completely respect the right of the site owners to set their own parameters regarding posts and paid ads, and they certainly need to be compensated somehow for the services they provide.

However, I saw your original post and it didn't occur to me that it could have been a solicitation. Heck, my neighbor wants to buy my boat but I'm not sure what a fair price is. Dunno who to ask either, and I'm not advertising it for sale.

A good potential source for you to find out the value of your boat is Mark Michaelson at the sailing pro shop. His Catamaran Buyers Guide covers P16 values was available online but is currently being revised and therefore not available. Give him a call and he'll give you free advice (and it will be worth more than you pay for it). Ironically, Mark was the target of extensive flaming posts a few months ago when he "crossed the line" on this forum. So you'll be in good company.

Regards,

Eric,
That was a great suggestion. I wish I had thought of it.

Eric, Dave,

What Michaelsen regularly engages in is free advertising and outright SPAM, and is not to be confused with the innocuous question that was originally asked.

What is TRULY ironic is that Michaelsen's Yahoo Group and discussions have a disclaimer saying that competitive dealers will be KICKED out his lists. Funny, from a guy who has spent YEARS dropping in on various lists and offering 'advice'. On television that's called INFOMERCIALS.

sea ya
tami

except that they have to pay for airtime in an infomercial!

Even a idiot like myself knew that Dave wanted only to know what he should pay or sell a P16. Michealsons July292001 edition states that an 84-88 P16w/trailer 1000-1400,BUC guide from most banks state an average from low-high retail w/o trailer 1700-2000 .

Tami,

Of course that's what you-know-who is doing, has been doing, and will likely continue doing. It IS obvious. Poaching, networking, namedropping, spam slamming. The internet is full of it. But...

Along with all that you-know-who will give free advice about what a P16 is worth...Sometimes it's nice to have a resource like that.

Happy sailing,

Tami:

What you claim about the YAHOO group is nothing short of an outright lie. Here is the text for all to see and to further support what you claim is false we have three other dealers who are members of that YAHOO e-mail list group (Multihull central)and we welcome EVERYONE regardless of whether or not they compete with our company.

Here is the greating at the top of the YAHOO GROUP:

>>Multihull Central is a no nonsense group for the catamaran or trimaran enthusiast. Lead by Mark Michaelsen from the Sailing Pro Shop with over 25 years of multihull experience this is the place to ask questions, share stories and get news on the wonderful world of multihull sailboats.

From beach catamarans like Hobie Cats, Prindle Cats, NACRAs, SOL CATS and more to the Farrier TRIs to the outrageous maxis sailing around the world like PLAYSTATION and TEAM ADVENTURE no other mailing list will give you more up to date and accurate information.

If you are new to the group please introduce yourself by letting us know where you are geographically (roughly if you are uncomfortable with specifics) and what you interests are primarily.

Welcome aboard.

Mark Michaelsen <<

Now Tami: please show me where dealers are not welcomed. EVERYONE is welcomed there.

Further to this Tami you claim that we will kick dealers off our FREE CLASSIFIED ADS bulletin boards, well there ya have me. I figure on our commercial site ( http://www.sailingproshop.com )it is reasonable to ask dealers not to advertise but we do allow EVERYONE ELSE to advertise for FREE. Seems fair doesn't it?

As to getting a FREE RIDE here we paid rick and Mary for a year's worth of advertising here on the CATAMARAN SAILOR site this year to help support the program. Once our new store is opened up we'll spring for more ads here to help support CATAMARAN SAILOR.

Please be more careful when posting inaccurate and intentionally defamatory information in public.

Thank you in advance for your carefully thought out reply.

Mark Michaelsen.

We have had this discussion before.
Some people innocently post "For Sale" ads here because they don't know any better and other similar forums allow it.
They are usually self-policed very quickly and the some of them even apologize.
Rick deletes the thread when he gets the chance.
Some jerks know better and do it anyway.
The "Catch 22" is the sailing industry professionals.
Do we make Bill Roberts stop mentioning the advantages of his type of designs, the Supercat, SC and ARC family?
Do we stop Bill Curry from explaining good sail design?
Do we stop Mark from answering the frequent "Where can I find...." questions?
There can't be a simple rule which covers every situation.
I think forum is doing just fine.

But then you know how easy going I am 🙂

i appreciate you pointing out to me that an 84-88 p16 is worth 1700-2000. now, what does his page say about a 1997 model, or any other page for that matter.

you may not have seen the original post because i deleted it rather than leave it up and put up with the hassle of defending myself and the post. in retrospect, that was a mistake. i thoroughally believe this forum should not be used for advertising. i thought it was a place for cat sailors to share information that would otherwise not be readily available. in my opinion, this includes everything from how to replace a halyard to how much a particular boat or an upgrade is worth. in retrospect, the description of my boat may have been enough for some readers to infer that it was actually an advertisement. believe me, it was not my intention to imply that. what i was trying to do is describe the options and upgrades the boat has because they would generally affect the value... white sails cost less than colored sails, furling is an upgrade, rigging is always something that must be taken into account...

wait, this post may be construed as another advertisement. maybe i shouldn't use the open forum to make my point.

Dave, I sent you a private message before seeing your current post here, but I think I covered all the bases.

For the benefit of the other forum users, though, I think I should say a few things -- and try not to get myself in trouble again.

First of all, this is all really a non-issue. There has never been a problem, to my knowledge, on this forum with people abusing the rules. People post questions all the time about where to find this or that, how much things cost, what brands are best, etc. I don't know why anybody would have a problem with any of that.

Secondly, the forum administrator had no problem, as far as I know, with Dave's original post, so Dave did not need to remove it.

Thirdly, I apparently caused this whole tempest in a teapot
. In Dave's original post, he said something to the effect that he hoped he was not violating the rules (about classified ads). I then made the huge mistake of giving my own opinion that "It sounds like a classified ad to me." And I thought that would be the end of it, because at that point I didn't really care one way or the other. But then Dave and others disagreed with my opinion and I disagreed with their disagreement.....well, you get the picture. It was just your basic argument.

None of it really means anything. We are all creating an issue where none exists. And if there is no problem, I guess we don't need any solutions.

I have apologized to Dave personally for offering my opinion in the first place. I tend to keep forgetting that people think of me as an extension of Rick, and that lapse keeps getting me into hot water, because people seem to attribute other motives to what I say. Meanwhile, I keep thinking I'm just one of the guys.

All of you have easier access to Rick than I do if you ever have a question regarding the forum -- he is as close as your computer or your telephone. He doesn't pay any attention to me -- and you shouldn't either.