Recently at a regatta, I was in a collision and am wondering who is to blame.
Approaching the downwind buoy I was on a starboard tack almost dead downwind and did not have room to pass the buoy due to the presence of another boat to leeward of me. I requested buoy room and they had not problem bearing off a bit to give me room. With about 7 feet to spare between myself and the buoy, and maybe 3 feet between myself and the boat to leeward, I attempted to round the buoy and was focusing on not colliding with this boat when another boat on a port tack came out of nowhere and cut in front of me unexpectedly. I was completely unaware of the presence of this boat until I heard a
watch!
from them and less than a second later I collided with their port hull.
Now, I feel that since they were on a port tack the should have given me room and passed astern of me, but they claim that they jibed just before the collision and put themselves on a starboard, in which case we would have both been and a starboard tack and they would have been to windward and had established an overlap, so I would have had to give them buoy room. The only problem with that is that had we both been on a starboard, and if I would have given them buoy room, I would have collided with the boat leeward of me.
What ended up happening was that they cut right in front of me and my boat rode up on top of their
brand-new
port crossbar causing damage to my starboard hull (a puncture) and a scrape/dnet on their crossbar. My question is that I am interested in knowing what others would have done in this situation, bearing in mind that I was completely unaware that this boat was anywhere in the vicinity of me becuase I was focusing on the leeward boat giving me buoy room.
-thank you for your time and patience. <img src=
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I don't think port/starboard is the issue. They didn't give you time or room to react.
Starboard vs port tack is fairly irrelevant (it would relate to how much room you have to give). The responsibility of keeping clear and giving room depends on the position of the boats when they entered the two-boatlength circle. If all three of you were overlapped, regardless of tack, the inside boat is entitled to room to round the mark and the outside boat(s) must give room. For the boat to leeward of you, he must give both you and the port-tack boat room. Which includes enough room for the port-tack boat to gybe. If the port-tack boat was not overlapped inside of you when you reached the two-boat circle, then he is not entitled to room.
However, collisions are to be avoided at all costs and I believe you may both be thrown out if the collision was sever enough to cause substantial boat damage.
Someone should have protested.
sm
Approaching the downwind buoy I was on a starboard tack almost dead downwind and did not have room to pass the buoy due to the presence of another boat to leeward of me. I requested buoy room and they had not problem bearing off a bit to give me room. With about 7 feet to spare between myself and the buoy, and maybe 3 feet between myself and the boat to leeward, I attempted to round the buoy and was focusing on not colliding with this boat when another boat on a port tack came out of nowhere and cut in front of me unexpectedly. I was completely unaware of the presence of this boat until I heard a
watch!
from them and less than a second later I collided with their port hull.
Now, I feel that since they were on a port tack the should have given me room and passed astern of me, but they claim that they jibed just before the collision and put themselves on a starboard, in which case we would have both been and a starboard tack and they would have been to windward and had established an overlap, so I would have had to give them buoy room. The only problem with that is that had we both been on a starboard, and if I would have given them buoy room, I would have collided with the boat leeward of me.
What ended up happening was that they cut right in front of me and my boat rode up on top of their
brand-new
port crossbar causing damage to my starboard hull (a puncture) and a scrape/dnet on their crossbar. My question is that I am interested in knowing what others would have done in this situation, bearing in mind that I was completely unaware that this boat was anywhere in the vicinity of me becuase I was focusing on the leeward boat giving me buoy room.
-thank you for your time and patience. <img src=
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Assuming it was a Starboard rounding and we are inside the 2 boatlength zone this situation can happen quite often.
In cat racing because of the downwind angles we run, a boat coming in on port tack will almost always have rights over a starboard boat. He is fully entitled to gybe around the mark in a seaman like manner and you are obligated to give him room to do so.
He probably should have (but is not obligated to) hail for room. You should have called for room from the boat leeward to you (and he is obligated to give it).
Check out whole Rule 18. Also Tikipete, note that under 18.2(d), rule 16 (changing course) does not apply at a mark rounding situation.
Therefore, I think you might owe the guy a beer.
Tiger Mike
Vinny,
Was it a gate or a buoy being rounded to starboard? Or was it a buoy being rounded to port?
Therefore, I think you might owe the guy a beer.
Tiger Mike
As always, I'm more confused than ever when we get into citation! <img src=
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My advice: Don't run into anyone, and I'll buy the first round regardless! <img src=
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Jake, to answer your question, it was a gate. Instructions were to round buoys to port, but for the gate, it was to the advantage to round to starboard. Also, I am not quite sure if they would have established an overlap. When we collided, I hit them directly beam on as I was about to round the gate to starboard. I was almost dead downwind at the time and it seemed as they were on a beam reach, so could and overlap be established?
After spending some time thinking it over though, I think I should not have only been focusing on the boat to leeward and my crew or I should have noticed the other boat approaching and tried to give them buoy room. The only problem is that had i given them buoy room at the time, I am not sure if the leeward boat would have had time to react to me swerving and I probably would have hit them.
Tikipete, I like the way you think. No hard feelings were shared, although I had to retire from the race due to the nature of my hull damage.
It was my fault.
Recently at a regatta, I was in a collision and am wondering who is to blame.
Approaching the downwind buoy I was on a starboard tack almost dead downwind and did not have room to pass the buoy due to the presence of another boat to leeward of me. I requested buoy room and they had not problem bearing off a bit to give me room. With about 7 feet to spare between myself and the buoy, and maybe 3 feet be
When we collided, I hit them directly beam on as I was about to round the gate to starboard. I was almost dead downwind at the time and it seemed as they were on a beam reach, so could and overlap be established?
After spending some time thinking it over though, I think I should not have only been focusing on the boat to leeward and my crew or I should have noticed the other boat approaching and tried to give them buoy room. The only problem is that had i given them buoy room at the time, I am not sure if the leeward boat would have had time to react to me swerving and I probably would have hit them.
It doesn't matter if it were a gate or a normal mark. Same rule applies. If you didn't see him untill you hit, how do you know there was no overlap??? In the situation you described it is almost guaranteed to be an overlap (get out the magnetic boats and you will see what I mean).
Furthermore, if doubt exists, you are obligated to give the boat room and then fight it out later in the protest room. By the fact that you T-boned them suggests there was well and truely an overlap!
Tiger Mike
My advice is to stay out of these situations by all means possible. This means have a good luck around before approaching the gate and choose the least crowded side. There is always some dummy whose actions cause other people damaged. To me it is not worth damaging my boat over.
Wouter
Wouter
Agreed!! <img src=
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No, but it does matter if they were rounding to port or starboard (port roundings are the norm in the states unless it's a gate).
The boat approaching a starboard rounded gate buoy on port definitely has inside overlap and you do owe him room. If you draw a line sqaure off your stern, you'll see that the port tacker will usually easily fall within this line. It's a tough situation, especially if you have a leeward boat who's not willing or able to heed. The best thing you could have done in that situation, is to see the port boat coming, ask for additional room from the leeward boat, and try to avoid contact. If contact is had and you have done all these things, you will not be at fault. You would then need to protest the leeward boat for not giving you room and the port tacker for not avoiding contact.
Approaching the downwind buoy I was on a starboard tack almost dead downwind and did not have room to pass the buoy due to the presence of another boat to leeward of me. I requested buoy room and they had not problem bearing off a bit to give me room. With about 7 feet to spare between myself and the buoy, and maybe 3 feet between myself and the boat to leeward, I attempted to round the buoy and was focusing on not colliding with this boat when another boat on a port tack came out of nowhere and cut in front of me unexpectedly. I was completely unaware of the presence of this boat until I heard a
watch!
from them and less than a second later I collided with their port hull.
Now, I feel that since they were on a port tack the should have given me room and passed astern of me, but they claim that they jibed just before the collision and put themselves on a starboard, in which case we would have both been and a starboard tack and they would have been to windward and had established an overlap, so I would have had to give them buoy room. The only problem with that is that had we both been on a starboard, and if I would have given them buoy room, I would have collided with the boat leeward of me.
What ended up happening was that they cut right in front of me and my boat rode up on top of their
brand-new
port crossbar causing damage to my starboard hull (a puncture) and a scrape/dnet on their crossbar. My question is that I am interested in knowing what others would have done in this situation, bearing in mind that I was completely unaware that this boat was anywhere in the vicinity of me becuase I was focusing on the leeward boat giving me buoy room.
-thank you for your time and patience. <img src=
alt=
/>
It's hard to picture this whole thing given the distances you mention (only 7 feet to bouy when the they crossed your bow). I have to assume that if you were going almost dead downwind the 7 feet was more from your bow to the mark than to the side?
But, first thing - if you entered the two boat length circle before they established overlap, they had no rights, port or starboard. So this to me is the important part. If you were going slow and they were heated up I wouldn't be surprised if you got there first and they came screaming in. But, this is something only you guys can answer.
The business of them jibing to starboard
just before the collision
sounds questionable. If you t-boned them, running up on their port crossbeam, I doubt very highly they had jibed unless you had turned up quite a bit to get to the mark (but given the distances mentioned, unlikely). With no mark involved, they would have been windward after the jibe, and still owed you rights (unless you're sailing ice boat rules). And even if they had acquired privileges through this jibe, they must give the newly burdened boat time/room to react.
You had a leeward boat you were contending with and could not head down - they put you in the position of deciding which boat to hit. I'm sure the leeward boat was visible to them if they were watching. If they truly had overlap early enough it would have been smart for them to call for room loud enough so both of you guys would know they were there. Seeing that room was going to be tight (how many of our boats fit in a 7 foot slot?), they needed to act to avoid the collision regardless of who had rights and throw a flag.
So, if they truly had overlap when you and the leeward boat entered the two boat lenght circle, they had rights but were required to avoid a collision. How much you could do given the leeward boat is questionable. Given the 3 feet between you and the leeward boat they close to getting hit twice... But it sounds like you could not fall off unless the leeward boat fell off, but since you t-boned him I don't think it would have made a difference.
If there was no overlap, then they are at fault all over the place.
Firstly what was the breeze strenght..... Your boat speed, their boat speed.
They obviously created an overlap at some stage but did they do it before the 2 boat lenght circle or after.
As Mike said, if you are coming into the gat on a Starbord rounding, the Port boat may have rights of an overlap and on a Port rounding the reverse is true with the Starboard boat holding potential rights.
Where it can get ugly is when a boat coming down on port heading for the port gate mark approaches the boat heading down on Starboard for the starboard mark. If they are going to their respective bouys, then it is a simple port / starboard. However if the Port boat intends to gybe and hails for bouy room, then you better be prepared to give it. After giving room though, the port boat MUST gybe and round or face committing and infringement.
If I was the starboard boat in this situation, I would yell
starboard
early and give the port boat an opportunity to call for
bouy room
.
If I was the port boat, I would yell early
bouy room gybe rounding
the port boat must gybe and round
I think if this were known in clusters at the mark (gate), it would cut down on the protesting and rammings because many port rounding boats intentions are to just cover the leeward boats on the way back up to windward.
No, but it does matter if they were rounding to port or starboard (port roundings are the norm in the states unless it's a gate).
The boat approaching a starboard rounded gate buoy on port definitely has inside overlap and you do owe him room. If you draw a line sqaure off your stern, you'll see that the port tacker will usually easily fall within this line. It's a tough situation, especially if you have a leeward boat who's not willing or able to heed. The best thing you could have done in that situation, is to see the port boat coming, ask for additional room from the leeward boat, and try to avoid contact. If contact is had and you have done all these things, you will not be at fault. You would then need to protest the leeward boat for not giving you room and the port tacker for not avoiding contact.
Sorry - I understand what you mean now. It is only significant to determine who is most likely overlapped with who. The rule applies the same though.
Tiger Mike
They obviously created an overlap at some stage but did they do it before the 2 boat lenght circle or after.
As Mike said, if you are coming into the gat on a Starbord rounding, the Port boat may have rights of an overlap and on a Port rounding the reverse is true with the Starboard boat holding potential rights.
Where it can get ugly is when a boat coming down on port heading for the port gate mark approaches the boat heading down on Starboard for the starboard mark. If they are going to their respective bouys, then it is a simple port / starboard. However if the Port boat intends to gybe and hails for bouy room, then you better be prepared to give it. After giving room though, the port boat MUST gybe and round or face committing and infringement.
If I was the starboard boat in this situation, I would yell
starboard
early and give the port boat an opportunity to call for
bouy room
.
If I was the port boat, I would yell early
bouy room gybe rounding
Sounds like good advice there. With respect to the overlap, Get out the little magnetic boats guys or do some diagrams. Looking at the angles involved. Even if the starboard tack boat is running close to dead down wind (which virtually never happens), he will have to give room to most of the field coming the other way. Also remember that if in doubt, you are to give room and then fight it out in the protest room later.
Tiger Mike
Certainly it can be good to avoid these situations.
Sometimes if you see a crowded mark rounding happening, it can be better to slow down, wait for the crowd to get around and then sneak inside with a good tactical rounding. However, if you want to become a better racer, actually knowing the rules is better than always just avoiding sticky situations. First, you'll actually know if you're in the right. Second, you can use the rules to your advantage (last weekend I won one race because I managed to get inside on the last gate rounding and force my competitor to round outside).
Just my 2cents.
sm
If you t-boned them, running up on their port crossbeam, it's game over for you as I see. You hit them, they didn't hit you, that alone puts you in the wrong. You need to avoid a collision at all times, right or wrong.
Also, they have to be in front of your bow by half a boatlenght for you to hit them midships, in which case it's almost a given they had an overlap but in any event, you failed to avoid a collision, so I'm afraid it's
go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200
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From childhood you are taught to look both ways when you cross a street and look four ways when you are at an intersection. In sailboat racing, you have to be aware of what is going on around you and plan ahead and be prepared.
Easy to say, hard to do. <img src=
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Common sense says don't hit the bugger but what you quoted above is not what the rules say.
Tiger Mike
Also, they have to be in front of your bow by half a boatlenght for you to hit them midships, in which case it's almost a given they had an overlap but in any event, you failed to avoid a collision, so I'm afraid it's
go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200
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Berny, where was he going to go? His options were to hit the guy below him or the guy above him - I would have choosen to hit the guy below me because he was the one that owed me room - but then you would probably end up getting both of them. Things get a little sour when he didn't see the port tacker coming in, but the port tacker still shares the obligation to avoid contact as well.
Oh, I agree that his options were not good but he needed to be aware of the port tacker and to call the leeward boat early enough for him to respond. I'm also not saying the port tacker has no liability either because he also put his boat in a position where a crash ensued. No one gets away from these incidends scott free.
The guy to leeward must be thanking his stars.